Dave Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Great thread btw. Didn't see that lot coming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I've got a phone video of Mort singing the Blaydon Races in Bambu last night, should I post it up? Bought everyone a drink again. I think that would be a good idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Is a "trophy" signing a "statement" signing and a "big" signing or a "one-off" signing? Are all signings for the "future" worthless ones? The semantics of this argument drive it into pointlessness. A player is worth it if they're the right player. End of. Being that "right player" defies labeling the signing any other way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UV Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I've got a phone video of Mort singing the Blaydon Races in Bambu last night, should I post it up? Bought everyone a drink again. Hope you refused it and said you didn't want to be appeased with a one-off drink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I've got a phone video of Mort singing the Blaydon Races in Bambu last night, should I post it up? Bought everyone a drink again. Hope you refused it and said you didn't want to be appeased with a one-off drink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I've got a phone video of Mort singing the Blaydon Races in Bambu last night, should I post it up? Bought everyone a drink again. I think that would be a good idea. i'll second that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieDazzler Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I'll youtoob it when I get home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I've got a phone video of Mort singing the Blaydon Races in Bambu last night, should I post it up? Bought everyone a drink again. Hope you refused it and said you didn't want to be appeased with a one-off drink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Btw Jones was one of those Johnny average players last season. As was Bentley...... As were 100 other players who are STILL Johnny averages. It's all well and good getting in a bunch of promising young players, but you have to live with the reality that only a small percentage of them will actually become players who will get you into the top 4. You need quality players to get you there, so you can either buy them off the shelf or buy players who you hope will develop into a quality player in 2 or 3 seasons. Of course, if they do develop into a top player you then have to be able to keep them rather than have them move to a team where THEY can get the immediate CL football they will want. You wont easily be able to do that if all you do each year is buy promising young talent as chances are they'll develop at different times and the best will just get impatient and, cajoled by their agents, move on elsewhere. For example Richards at Man City will stay there because they are showing ambition and buying players who can make a difference NOW and probably will have a realistic chance of getting into the CL next year, whereas Bentley at Blackburn, who are at a similar level as City at the moment, will probably move because they are not willing or able to back their manager to the same level as those clubs around them which would enable them to make that step up. Do you think we'll be able to persuade Owen to sign a new contract (when the chairman can be bothered to get around to trying) if all we propose to do this Summer is buy prospects? Do you think the likes of Owen, Martins, N'Zogbia, etc will be happy to just whittle away a couple of seasons out of their short careers in mid table while these prospects (hopefully) develop. I don't. People are asking for estimates of the amount of cash we'll be spending, but it's not about absolutes it's about matching and bettering your opponents. If we spend £10m this Summer, then I'm sure there would be those who will say "well that's what the old board spent on average over the last 10 years", but times have moved on and there is a lot more money floating about now than there was 12 years ago when even then we could afford to spend £15 on a "statement signing". I wouldn't be surprised if £10-£20m was the average spent this year by the teams outside the CL. If that's the case, we should be bettering that. If Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth, West Ham, etc are spending £20-£30 we should be bettering that. Obviously what you do with the money is just as important (maybe more so) as how much you get, but having more makes life so much easier; it lowers the risk factor if instead of buying that £5m 19 year old promising player you buy that £15m 22 year old who has shown they will not just fade into obscurity. Where has he said we will only sign prospects in the Summer rather than quality players? His comments to me suggest that he doesn't want the club spending big on players in their 30's as it's only a short term solution, his comments about building a team and looking to develop the club over the next few years suggests he wants players who can have a long term future at the club and players like Bentley and Jones fall into that category. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Liam Liam O Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I've got a phone video of Mort singing the Blaydon Races in Bambu last night, should I post it up? Bought everyone a drink again. Hope you refused it and said you didn't want to be appeased with a one-off drink. Brilliant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UV Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Btw Jones was one of those Johnny average players last season. As was Bentley...... As were 100 other players who are STILL Johnny averages. It's all well and good getting in a bunch of promising young players, but you have to live with the reality that only a small percentage of them will actually become players who will get you into the top 4. You need quality players to get you there, so you can either buy them off the shelf or buy players who you hope will develop into a quality player in 2 or 3 seasons. Of course, if they do develop into a top player you then have to be able to keep them rather than have them move to a team where THEY can get the immediate CL football they will want. You wont easily be able to do that if all you do each year is buy promising young talent as chances are they'll develop at different times and the best will just get impatient and, cajoled by their agents, move on elsewhere. For example Richards at Man City will stay there because they are showing ambition and buying players who can make a difference NOW and probably will have a realistic chance of getting into the CL next year, whereas Bentley at Blackburn, who are at a similar level as City at the moment, will probably move because they are not willing or able to back their manager to the same level as those clubs around them which would enable them to make that step up. Do you think we'll be able to persuade Owen to sign a new contract (when the chairman can be bothered to get around to trying) if all we propose to do this Summer is buy prospects? Do you think the likes of Owen, Martins, N'Zogbia, etc will be happy to just whittle away a couple of seasons out of their short careers in mid table while these prospects (hopefully) develop. I don't. People are asking for estimates of the amount of cash we'll be spending, but it's not about absolutes it's about matching and bettering your opponents. If we spend £10m this Summer, then I'm sure there would be those who will say "well that's what the old board spent on average over the last 10 years", but times have moved on and there is a lot more money floating about now than there was 12 years ago when even then we could afford to spend £15 on a "statement signing". I wouldn't be surprised if £10-£20m was the average spent this year by the teams outside the CL. If that's the case, we should be bettering that. If Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth, West Ham, etc are spending £20-£30 we should be bettering that. Obviously what you do with the money is just as important (maybe more so) as how much you get, but having more makes life so much easier; it lowers the risk factor if instead of buying that £5m 19 year old promising player you buy that £15m 22 year old who has shown they will not just fade into obscurity. Where has he said we will only sign prospects in the Summer rather than quality players? His comments to me suggest that he doesn't want the club spending big on players in their 30's as it's only a short term solution, his comments about building a team and looking to develop the club over the next few years suggests he wants players who can have a long term future at the club and players like Bentley and Jones fall into that category. "Historically, the club has looked to please the fans by making a 'statement signing' every now and again," Mort said. "Looking back, I'm just not sure if that's the way to develop long-term success." This is what he said. Which signings in the past have we spent big on who were over 30 to make you think that is what he meant by that statement? The players I would say who were "statement signings" under the old board are Shearer, Woodgate and Owen (plus the attempted signing of Rooney). Players who were all young enough at the time to have a long term future with the club. Quality players that most other clubs would have loved to have signed & showed other players (which is far more relevant than showing the supporters) that we meant business making it easier to attract decent players from other clubs.. Signing quality young players, players who are developed enough to go straight into the first team and make a significant difference, players who are wanted by other top clubs is what I would call a "statement signing", and he is ruling that out (I'm not specifically talking about Jones & Bentley here). Edit: A lot of what I said was not specifically addressing what I think Mort meant but rather what others have inferred that Mort meant, if that make sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Btw Jones was one of those Johnny average players last season. As was Bentley...... As were 100 other players who are STILL Johnny averages. It's all well and good getting in a bunch of promising young players, but you have to live with the reality that only a small percentage of them will actually become players who will get you into the top 4. You need quality players to get you there, so you can either buy them off the shelf or buy players who you hope will develop into a quality player in 2 or 3 seasons. Of course, if they do develop into a top player you then have to be able to keep them rather than have them move to a team where THEY can get the immediate CL football they will want. You wont easily be able to do that if all you do each year is buy promising young talent as chances are they'll develop at different times and the best will just get impatient and, cajoled by their agents, move on elsewhere. For example Richards at Man City will stay there because they are showing ambition and buying players who can make a difference NOW and probably will have a realistic chance of getting into the CL next year, whereas Bentley at Blackburn, who are at a similar level as City at the moment, will probably move because they are not willing or able to back their manager to the same level as those clubs around them which would enable them to make that step up. Do you think we'll be able to persuade Owen to sign a new contract (when the chairman can be bothered to get around to trying) if all we propose to do this Summer is buy prospects? Do you think the likes of Owen, Martins, N'Zogbia, etc will be happy to just whittle away a couple of seasons out of their short careers in mid table while these prospects (hopefully) develop. I don't. People are asking for estimates of the amount of cash we'll be spending, but it's not about absolutes it's about matching and bettering your opponents. If we spend £10m this Summer, then I'm sure there would be those who will say "well that's what the old board spent on average over the last 10 years", but times have moved on and there is a lot more money floating about now than there was 12 years ago when even then we could afford to spend £15 on a "statement signing". I wouldn't be surprised if £10-£20m was the average spent this year by the teams outside the CL. If that's the case, we should be bettering that. If Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth, West Ham, etc are spending £20-£30 we should be bettering that. Obviously what you do with the money is just as important (maybe more so) as how much you get, but having more makes life so much easier; it lowers the risk factor if instead of buying that £5m 19 year old promising player you buy that £15m 22 year old who has shown they will not just fade into obscurity. Where has he said we will only sign prospects in the Summer rather than quality players? His comments to me suggest that he doesn't want the club spending big on players in their 30's as it's only a short term solution, his comments about building a team and looking to develop the club over the next few years suggests he wants players who can have a long term future at the club and players like Bentley and Jones fall into that category. "Historically, the club has looked to please the fans by making a 'statement signing' every now and again," Mort said. "Looking back, I'm just not sure if that's the way to develop long-term success." This is what he said. Which signings in the past have we spent big on who were over 30 to make you think that is what he meant by that statement? The players I would say who were "statement signings" under the old board are Shearer, Woodgate and Owen (plus the attempted signing of Rooney). Players who were all young enough at the time to have a long term future with the club. Quality players that most other clubs would have loved to have signed & showed other players (which is far more relevant than showing the supporters) that we meant business making it easier to attract decent players from other clubs.. Signing quality young players, players who are developed enough to go straight into the first team and make a significant difference, players who are wanted by other top clubs is what I would call a "statement signing", and he is ruling that out (I'm not specifically talking about Jones & Bentley here). Edit: A lot of what I said was not specifically addressing what I think Mort meant but rather what others have inferred that Mort meant, if that make sense. We haven't spent big on anyone over 30, my point was he was answering the comment about building with a view for the club long term against the signing of someone like Henry, I added the part about spending big on someone over 30 because Henry will cost us a fair lump sum, I've no problem with bringing in older players (like Viduka for example) as long as they don't cost much and are a stop gap. As for the statement signing part, I'm not sure what he means and it's hard to try and interpret his whole mindset from a sentence, there have been times in the past when we've gone for a player because he's a big name rather than because of ability, Duff jumps out as a player we signed because he was Damian Duff rather than being a position we were desperate to fill, Kluivert being another signed because he was a big name rather than what he could still do on the pitch. I think we'll have to wait until the Summer to get a better feel about what he's talking about but I think quality players will come in capable of going in and improving the first team straight away in their early to mid 20's, a few other young lads who can be brought through too (as Keegan mentioned) I think everyone would be happy with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 i'll be very surprised if keegan doesnt get what he wants, and we all know that'll be some top quality players to go straight into the team, he's already said so, why would they bring him in only to snub him in the summer? wouldnt make sense, especially now he's turned the whole club around, ashley will be as excited as the rest of us at the prospect of what kev can do with some better players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UV Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I'm interested to hear who other people think are the "statement signings" Mort is referring to that we've made in the past, the likes of which we wont be making under Mort. I put up my list before (Shearer, Woodgate, Owen, Rooney attempt), and I forgot Viana who I'd add to that as the young european player of the year at the time, I think that was a "statement", and was a a signing I imagine everyone was chuffed to bits with. I don't think the likes of Luque or Robert were personally (as they were relative unknowns unless you followed the leagues they were in), and I don't think Duff was, I think that just looked like a bargain for a good player (certainly worth as much of a punt as Smith or Barton). Who were you appeased by? I wonder what Ferguson thinks of Mort's opinion that "statement signings" are not the way to develop long term success? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I think he's on about Owen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Btw Jones was one of those Johnny average players last season. As was Bentley...... As were 100 other players who are STILL Johnny averages. It's all well and good getting in a bunch of promising young players, but you have to live with the reality that only a small percentage of them will actually become players who will get you into the top 4. You need quality players to get you there, so you can either buy them off the shelf or buy players who you hope will develop into a quality player in 2 or 3 seasons. Of course, if they do develop into a top player you then have to be able to keep them rather than have them move to a team where THEY can get the immediate CL football they will want. You wont easily be able to do that if all you do each year is buy promising young talent as chances are they'll develop at different times and the best will just get impatient and, cajoled by their agents, move on elsewhere. For example Richards at Man City will stay there because they are showing ambition and buying players who can make a difference NOW and probably will have a realistic chance of getting into the CL next year, whereas Bentley at Blackburn, who are at a similar level as City at the moment, will probably move because they are not willing or able to back their manager to the same level as those clubs around them which would enable them to make that step up. Do you think we'll be able to persuade Owen to sign a new contract (when the chairman can be bothered to get around to trying) if all we propose to do this Summer is buy prospects? Do you think the likes of Owen, Martins, N'Zogbia, etc will be happy to just whittle away a couple of seasons out of their short careers in mid table while these prospects (hopefully) develop. I don't. People are asking for estimates of the amount of cash we'll be spending, but it's not about absolutes it's about matching and bettering your opponents. If we spend £10m this Summer, then I'm sure there would be those who will say "well that's what the old board spent on average over the last 10 years", but times have moved on and there is a lot more money floating about now than there was 12 years ago when even then we could afford to spend £15 on a "statement signing". I wouldn't be surprised if £10-£20m was the average spent this year by the teams outside the CL. If that's the case, we should be bettering that. If Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth, West Ham, etc are spending £20-£30 we should be bettering that. Obviously what you do with the money is just as important (maybe more so) as how much you get, but having more makes life so much easier; it lowers the risk factor if instead of buying that £5m 19 year old promising player you buy that £15m 22 year old who has shown they will not just fade into obscurity. precisely. Its like talking to people who still believe in fairies this like. They must have been asleep when we have bought promising young players previously that disappeard into dust ........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I've got a phone video of Mort singing the Blaydon Races in Bambu last night, should I post it up? Bought everyone a drink again. Hope you refused it and said you didn't want to be appeased with a one-off drink. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Duff and Kluivert. Maybe Nicky Butt since Shepherd wouldn't let Robson sign Carrick and insisted on him signing Butt instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Btw Jones was one of those Johnny average players last season. As was Bentley...... As were 100 other players who are STILL Johnny averages. It's all well and good getting in a bunch of promising young players, but you have to live with the reality that only a small percentage of them will actually become players who will get you into the top 4. You need quality players to get you there, so you can either buy them off the shelf or buy players who you hope will develop into a quality player in 2 or 3 seasons. Of course, if they do develop into a top player you then have to be able to keep them rather than have them move to a team where THEY can get the immediate CL football they will want. You wont easily be able to do that if all you do each year is buy promising young talent as chances are they'll develop at different times and the best will just get impatient and, cajoled by their agents, move on elsewhere. For example Richards at Man City will stay there because they are showing ambition and buying players who can make a difference NOW and probably will have a realistic chance of getting into the CL next year, whereas Bentley at Blackburn, who are at a similar level as City at the moment, will probably move because they are not willing or able to back their manager to the same level as those clubs around them which would enable them to make that step up. Do you think we'll be able to persuade Owen to sign a new contract (when the chairman can be bothered to get around to trying) if all we propose to do this Summer is buy prospects? Do you think the likes of Owen, Martins, N'Zogbia, etc will be happy to just whittle away a couple of seasons out of their short careers in mid table while these prospects (hopefully) develop. I don't. People are asking for estimates of the amount of cash we'll be spending, but it's not about absolutes it's about matching and bettering your opponents. If we spend £10m this Summer, then I'm sure there would be those who will say "well that's what the old board spent on average over the last 10 years", but times have moved on and there is a lot more money floating about now than there was 12 years ago when even then we could afford to spend £15 on a "statement signing". I wouldn't be surprised if £10-£20m was the average spent this year by the teams outside the CL. If that's the case, we should be bettering that. If Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth, West Ham, etc are spending £20-£30 we should be bettering that. Obviously what you do with the money is just as important (maybe more so) as how much you get, but having more makes life so much easier; it lowers the risk factor if instead of buying that £5m 19 year old promising player you buy that £15m 22 year old who has shown they will not just fade into obscurity. Where has he said we will only sign prospects in the Summer rather than quality players? His comments to me suggest that he doesn't want the club spending big on players in their 30's as it's only a short term solution, his comments about building a team and looking to develop the club over the next few years suggests he wants players who can have a long term future at the club and players like Bentley and Jones fall into that category. "Historically, the club has looked to please the fans by making a 'statement signing' every now and again," Mort said. "Looking back, I'm just not sure if that's the way to develop long-term success." This is what he said. Which signings in the past have we spent big on who were over 30 to make you think that is what he meant by that statement? The players I would say who were "statement signings" under the old board are Shearer, Woodgate and Owen (plus the attempted signing of Rooney). Players who were all young enough at the time to have a long term future with the club. Quality players that most other clubs would have loved to have signed & showed other players (which is far more relevant than showing the supporters) that we meant business making it easier to attract decent players from other clubs.. Signing quality young players, players who are developed enough to go straight into the first team and make a significant difference, players who are wanted by other top clubs is what I would call a "statement signing", and he is ruling that out (I'm not specifically talking about Jones & Bentley here). Edit: A lot of what I said was not specifically addressing what I think Mort meant but rather what others have inferred that Mort meant, if that make sense. We haven't spent big on anyone over 30, my point was he was answering the comment about building with a view for the club long term against the signing of someone like Henry, I added the part about spending big on someone over 30 because Henry will cost us a fair lump sum, I've no problem with bringing in older players (like Viduka for example) as long as they don't cost much and are a stop gap. As for the statement signing part, I'm not sure what he means and it's hard to try and interpret his whole mindset from a sentence, there have been times in the past when we've gone for a player because he's a big name rather than because of ability, Duff jumps out as a player we signed because he was Damian Duff rather than being a position we were desperate to fill, Kluivert being another signed because he was a big name rather than what he could still do on the pitch. I think we'll have to wait until the Summer to get a better feel about what he's talking about but I think quality players will come in capable of going in and improving the first team straight away in their early to mid 20's, a few other young lads who can be brought through too (as Keegan mentioned) I think everyone would be happy with that. haha, a Chelsea squad player = statement signing As already stated, the club has bought many players who are young with potential, if people haven't learned by now it guarantees absolutely nothing, they never will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I'm interested to hear who other people think are the "statement signings" Mort is referring to that we've made in the past, the likes of which we wont be making under Mort. I put up my list before (Shearer, Woodgate, Owen, Rooney attempt), and I forgot Viana who I'd add to that as the young european player of the year at the time, I think that was a "statement", and was a a signing I imagine everyone was chuffed to bits with. I don't think the likes of Luque or Robert were personally (as they were relative unknowns unless you followed the leagues they were in), and I don't think Duff was, I think that just looked like a bargain for a good player (certainly worth as much of a punt as Smith or Barton). Who were you appeased by? I wonder what Ferguson thinks of Mort's opinion that "statement signings" are not the way to develop long term success? Mort must think he knows better than Alex Ferguson Fancy Alex Ferguson spending 100m quid to win the title when he could have got away with spending a fraction of that, I hope the manu fans give him the grief he clearly deserves Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE5 Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Duff and Kluivert. Maybe Nicky Butt since Shepherd wouldn't let Robson sign Carrick and insisted on him signing Butt instead. but, but, but..........you complained they "overspent" so why are you endorsing signing Carrick ? Did FS tell you he wanted Nicky Butt ? Ditto Kluivert, who was a free transfer, apart from wages. Do you advocate spending money on a fee, just so you could harp on about "overspending" Most ironic statement of the year, although a few others have said the same thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I'm interested to hear who other people think are the "statement signings" Mort is referring to that we've made in the past, the likes of which we wont be making under Mort. I put up my list before (Shearer, Woodgate, Owen, Rooney attempt), and I forgot Viana who I'd add to that as the young european player of the year at the time, I think that was a "statement", and was a a signing I imagine everyone was chuffed to bits with. I don't think the likes of Luque or Robert were personally (as they were relative unknowns unless you followed the leagues they were in), and I don't think Duff was, I think that just looked like a bargain for a good player (certainly worth as much of a punt as Smith or Barton). Who were you appeased by? I wonder what Ferguson thinks of Mort's opinion that "statement signings" are not the way to develop long term success? Mort must think he knows better than Alex Ferguson Fancy Alex Ferguson spending 100m quid to win the title when he could have got away with spending a fraction of that, I hope the manu fans give him the grief he clearly deserves does it really matter what mort says mate? really? or are you just pissing and moaning? wait and see what they DO until coming out with all this man, we all know you're just getting your insurance in for your inevitable i told you so's, its like a win win situation for you isnt it, if they spend big you'll be happy coz you're a fan, and if they fuck it up you can bleat on about shepherd MORE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 I'm interested to hear who other people think are the "statement signings" Mort is referring to that we've made in the past, the likes of which we wont be making under Mort. I put up my list before (Shearer, Woodgate, Owen, Rooney attempt), and I forgot Viana who I'd add to that as the young european player of the year at the time, I think that was a "statement", and was a a signing I imagine everyone was chuffed to bits with. I don't think the likes of Luque or Robert were personally (as they were relative unknowns unless you followed the leagues they were in), and I don't think Duff was, I think that just looked like a bargain for a good player (certainly worth as much of a punt as Smith or Barton). Who were you appeased by? I wonder what Ferguson thinks of Mort's opinion that "statement signings" are not the way to develop long term success? Mort must think he knows better than Alex Ferguson Fancy Alex Ferguson spending 100m quid to win the title when he could have got away with spending a fraction of that, I hope the manu fans give him the grief he clearly deserves does it really matter what mort says mate? really? or are you just pissing and moaning? wait and see what they DO until coming out with all this man, we all know you're just getting your insurance in for your inevitable i told you so's, its like a win win situation for you isnt it, if they spend big you'll be happy coz you're a fan, and if they fuck it up you can bleat on about shepherd MORE mackems.gif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Day after we beat the Mackems and people are arguing about this shite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted April 21, 2008 Share Posted April 21, 2008 Day after we beat the Mackems and people are arguing about this shite. My thoughts exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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