Guest neesy111 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 everyone bangs about a top 4 it's not, it's a top 3 and then liverpool liverpool will never when the premiership, they simply haven't got money + they are seriously in debt (torres was bought using a loan) so 4th is possible with the right set-up etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 everyone bangs about a top 4 it's not, it's a top 3 and then liverpool liverpool will never when the premiership, they simply haven't got money + they are seriously in debt (torres was bought using a loan) so 4th is possible with the right set-up etc 3 + 1 = ? Hmmm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Even though Liverpool aren't currently on the same level as the other three, they're still a way ahead of the rest of us. They've had a pretty poor season by their own standards and still got fourth place easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Even though Liverpool aren't currently on the same level as the other three, they're still a way ahead of the rest of us. They've had a pretty poor season by their own standards and still got fourth place easily. liverpool without torres and gerrard would be where we are now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Even though Liverpool aren't currently on the same level as the other three, they're still a way ahead of the rest of us. They've had a pretty poor season by their own standards and still got fourth place easily. liverpool without torres and gerrard would be where we are now Sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mucky01 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Liverpool regularly get wads & wads of dosh from Champions League. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Is it not time that the EPL started getting serious about investigating a salary-cap based system? The only way the league will cease to be a top 3+1+scramblers+midtablers+relegation battlers is if the teams have an even field in terms of recruitment. Whilst it will never be a totally even field when it comes to recruiting talent, London and a winning team will always be more attractive than a regional team who is loosing, if all teams had a fixed maximum budget they were allowed to spend on wages it would greatly level that field and give more teams a chance of getting to the top based on quality of the overall squad, coaching and support, rather than doing a Chelsea and buying your way from the bottom to the top. There are many examples of salary cap based sporting competitions that work brilliantly (an example is the Australian Football League, where clubs regularly cycle through the table across the seasons). *fire-suit on* Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_R Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Even though Liverpool aren't currently on the same level as the other three, they're still a way ahead of the rest of us. They've had a pretty poor season by their own standards and still got fourth place easily. liverpool without torres and gerrard would be where we are now That's irrelevant. They do have Torres and Gerrard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
afar Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Is it not time that the EPL started getting serious about investigating a salary-cap based system? The only way the league will cease to be a top 3+1+scramblers+midtablers+relegation battlers is if the teams have an even field in terms of recruitment. Whilst it will never be a totally even field when it comes to recruiting talent, London and a winning team will always be more attractive than a regional team who is loosing, if all teams had a fixed maximum budget they were allowed to spend on wages it would greatly level that field and give more teams a chance of getting to the top based on quality of the overall squad, coaching and support, rather than doing a Chelsea and buying your way from the bottom to the top. There are many examples of salary cap based sporting competitions that work brilliantly (an example is the Australian Football League, where clubs regularly cycle through the table across the seasons). *fire-suit on* Thoughts? Where the prem differs from Aussie rules and the NFL, that there is an alternative place for players to go and make almost as much money. A salary cap would IMO, just have the effect of lowering the general quality as talent then drains away to the Spanish and Italian leagues. What works really well for the NFL is the Draft process, I would love to see a similar system applied to the PL but I don't think it would it work, there are too many problems and we don't have the college system to draft from. The other thing that helps to ensure all teams have a chance to compete in the NFL is the Trading processes. You can't just go to one Franchise and give them $30mill for their best player, in order to aquire them they either have to wait until they become a free agent (and this is where the salary cap helps stop teams from just paying more than everyone else for the best players) or trade something for them such as draft picks and or one or a number of your best players or potential stars. But conditions for these other sports are completely different , I'm not sure there is a massive amount that can be done to change the transfer system to make level the playing field. The rich will just continue to get richer and it'll be up to those chasing to try to join that elite club by finding their own funding streams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
simmsy10 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Even though Liverpool aren't currently on the same level as the other three, they're still a way ahead of the rest of us. They've had a pretty poor season by their own standards and still got fourth place easily. liverpool without torres and gerrard would be where we are now Us without Owen and Beye, we'd prob be relegated! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1878 Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Is it not time that the EPL started getting serious about investigating a salary-cap based system? The only way the league will cease to be a top 3+1+scramblers+midtablers+relegation battlers is if the teams have an even field in terms of recruitment. Whilst it will never be a totally even field when it comes to recruiting talent, London and a winning team will always be more attractive than a regional team who is loosing, if all teams had a fixed maximum budget they were allowed to spend on wages it would greatly level that field and give more teams a chance of getting to the top based on quality of the overall squad, coaching and support, rather than doing a Chelsea and buying your way from the bottom to the top. There are many examples of salary cap based sporting competitions that work brilliantly (an example is the Australian Football League, where clubs regularly cycle through the table across the seasons). *fire-suit on* Thoughts? Where the prem differs from Aussie rules and the NFL, that there is an alternative place for players to go and make almost as much money. A salary cap would IMO, just have the effect of lowering the general quality as talent then drains away to the Spanish and Italian leagues. What works really well for the NFL is the Draft process, I would love to see a similar system applied to the PL but I don't think it would it work, there are too many problems and we don't have the college system to draft from. The other thing that helps to ensure all teams have a chance to compete in the NFL is the Trading processes. You can't just go to one Franchise and give them $30mill for their best player, in order to aquire them they either have to wait until they become a free agent (and this is where the salary cap helps stop teams from just paying more than everyone else for the best players) or trade something for them such as draft picks and or one or a number of your best players or potential stars. But conditions for these other sports are completely different , I'm not sure there is a massive amount that can be done to change the transfer system to make level the playing field. The rich will just continue to get richer and it'll be up to those chasing to try to join that elite club by finding their own funding streams. Is it not a given when anyone talks about salary caps that it would be Europe wide? Otherwise it would never get off the ground. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
afar Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Is it not time that the EPL started getting serious about investigating a salary-cap based system? The only way the league will cease to be a top 3+1+scramblers+midtablers+relegation battlers is if the teams have an even field in terms of recruitment. Whilst it will never be a totally even field when it comes to recruiting talent, London and a winning team will always be more attractive than a regional team who is loosing, if all teams had a fixed maximum budget they were allowed to spend on wages it would greatly level that field and give more teams a chance of getting to the top based on quality of the overall squad, coaching and support, rather than doing a Chelsea and buying your way from the bottom to the top. There are many examples of salary cap based sporting competitions that work brilliantly (an example is the Australian Football League, where clubs regularly cycle through the table across the seasons). *fire-suit on* Thoughts? Where the prem differs from Aussie rules and the NFL, that there is an alternative place for players to go and make almost as much money. A salary cap would IMO, just have the effect of lowering the general quality as talent then drains away to the Spanish and Italian leagues. What works really well for the NFL is the Draft process, I would love to see a similar system applied to the PL but I don't think it would it work, there are too many problems and we don't have the college system to draft from. The other thing that helps to ensure all teams have a chance to compete in the NFL is the Trading processes. You can't just go to one Franchise and give them $30mill for their best player, in order to aquire them they either have to wait until they become a free agent (and this is where the salary cap helps stop teams from just paying more than everyone else for the best players) or trade something for them such as draft picks and or one or a number of your best players or potential stars. But conditions for these other sports are completely different , I'm not sure there is a massive amount that can be done to change the transfer system to make level the playing field. The rich will just continue to get richer and it'll be up to those chasing to try to join that elite club by finding their own funding streams. Is it not a given when anyone talks about salary caps that it would be Europe wide? Otherwise it would never get off the ground. I agree Europe wide it would have an effect, I still think it would devalue the prem, as we have a dispropotionate amount of the top players in our league and will continue to increase that number of the next few years. so the prem would get weaker and the other leagues styronger. No way in hell, the FA and the PL chairmen would agree to that. Also getting all chairman/presidents around Europe to agree on anything would be a hard. In this case getting the PFAs to buy in to the process would be almost impossible, you could well see them holding the leagues to ransom with player strikes and so forth. If they did get them all to agree, what level do they then set the cap at ? 10 Million a year for example, might have an impact on the Prem teams but have no effect whatsover on the vast majority of leagues. So if you set a cap that's propotionate to to each country, then your back to square one, as the players then just go off to the leagues with more money. The other issue that they would have to come against is European law and freedom of trade, it wouldn't be long before a bossman esque challenge would come in and the whole process would have to be re thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montey Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I think that UEFA is going to have to tackle this whole issue sooner rather than later. If things remain as they are the situation will be that within the EPL we will have the top 3 or 4 clubs that none have a chance of catching, but the issue will also extend to the Champions League and UEFA Cup. This year is the first time that the CL final is an all England event, but if England has all of the top talent, due to its buying power, then this may become the norm, resulting in European competitions being dominated by a handful of clubs, meaning the interest will start to drop. Unless UEFA takes this issue on and addresses the ability of a small number of clubs and their associated leagues to dominate, the various competitions will steadily decline as actual competition is reduced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 Its a top 4 because its those 4 that yar after year get the CL spot. Irrelevant whether Liverpool will win the league or not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
afar Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I think that UEFA is going to have to tackle this whole issue sooner rather than later. If things remain as they are the situation will be that within the EPL we will have the top 3 or 4 clubs that none have a chance of catching, but the issue will also extend to the Champions League and UEFA Cup. This year is the first time that the CL final is an all England event, but if England has all of the top talent, due to its buying power, then this may become the norm, resulting in European competitions being dominated by a handful of clubs, meaning the interest will start to drop. Unless UEFA takes this issue on and addresses the ability of a small number of clubs and their associated leagues to dominate, the various competitions will steadily decline as actual competition is reduced. They already have plans, by limiting foreigners but at the end of the day UEFA can't do a whole lot change our PL, that is governed purely by the FA. FIFA being the world's governing body have some power however at the end of the day it'll be what the FA that makes decisions about the PL and they will do nothing to stop the gravy train it is on, they will quite rightly only sanction changes that favour English clubs not clubs in Spain, Italy or Latvia or wherever. I can see a day when UEFA and the PL lock horns and to be perfectly honest due to the worldwide appeal of the PL, I would back the FA to come out as winners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I think that UEFA is going to have to tackle this whole issue sooner rather than later. If things remain as they are the situation will be that within the EPL we will have the top 3 or 4 clubs that none have a chance of catching, but the issue will also extend to the Champions League and UEFA Cup. This year is the first time that the CL final is an all England event, but if England has all of the top talent, due to its buying power, then this may become the norm, resulting in European competitions being dominated by a handful of clubs, meaning the interest will start to drop. Unless UEFA takes this issue on and addresses the ability of a small number of clubs and their associated leagues to dominate, the various competitions will steadily decline as actual competition is reduced. They already have plans, by limiting foreigners but at the end of the day UEFA can't do a whole lot change our PL, that is governed purely by the FA. FIFA being the world's governing body have some power however at the end of the day it'll be what the FA that makes decisions about the PL and they will do nothing to stop the gravy train it is on, they will quite rightly only sanction changes that favour English clubs not clubs in Spain, Italy or Latvia or wherever. I can see a day when UEFA and the PL lock horns and to be perfectly honest due to the worldwide appeal of the PL, I would back the FA to come out as winners. Nah. The FA are members of UEFA and FIFA. If it came down to brass tacks, England would be kicked out of the European Championships and the World Cup and English clubs would be turfed from the Champions League and the UEFA Cup. No way would the FA even dare to take UEFA on. The consequences of losing would be unimaginable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza ladra Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 @afar, The draft system is a joke. U.S. athletes live with it because they do not have options to play overseas. No professional in his right mind is going to agree to let a lottery determine where he can live and work. Nor should he. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
afar Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 I think that UEFA is going to have to tackle this whole issue sooner rather than later. If things remain as they are the situation will be that within the EPL we will have the top 3 or 4 clubs that none have a chance of catching, but the issue will also extend to the Champions League and UEFA Cup. This year is the first time that the CL final is an all England event, but if England has all of the top talent, due to its buying power, then this may become the norm, resulting in European competitions being dominated by a handful of clubs, meaning the interest will start to drop. Unless UEFA takes this issue on and addresses the ability of a small number of clubs and their associated leagues to dominate, the various competitions will steadily decline as actual competition is reduced. They already have plans, by limiting foreigners but at the end of the day UEFA can't do a whole lot change our PL, that is governed purely by the FA. FIFA being the world's governing body have some power however at the end of the day it'll be what the FA that makes decisions about the PL and they will do nothing to stop the gravy train it is on, they will quite rightly only sanction changes that favour English clubs not clubs in Spain, Italy or Latvia or wherever. I can see a day when UEFA and the PL lock horns and to be perfectly honest due to the worldwide appeal of the PL, I would back the FA to come out as winners. Nah. The FA are members of UEFA and FIFA. If it came down to brass tacks, England would be kicked out of the European Championships and the World Cup and English clubs would be turfed from the Champions League and the UEFA Cup. No way would the FA even dare to take UEFA on. The consequences of losing would be unimaginable. Unimaginable perhaps but the power of the PL is stronger than you think. The world cup is perhaps the only other football competition that has more worldwide appeal. This is what UEFA and FIFA are worried about and why they are trying to pull in the reins. UEFA needs the PL clubs to give credence to it's Champions League. Kicking English clubs out, like they did in the past is just not an option anymore. UEFA and FIFA would risk an awful lot in enforcing unwelcome restraints on trade for the PL, the FA would not take it lying down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
afar Posted May 9, 2008 Share Posted May 9, 2008 @afar, The draft system is a joke. U.S. athletes live with it because they do not have options to play overseas. No professional in his right mind is going to agree to let a lottery determine where he can live and work. Nor should he. It's principles are spot on though IMO. It encourages kids to stay in school and allows many from disadvantaged upbringings to attend university, hopefully learning a few things on the way. The universities benefit hugely from the revenue generated by the interest in the college game. The NFL draft for me is such a terrific spectacle full of drama and excitement, ESPN described it as the greatest non sporting event in sports I'm playing Madden 08 a lot at the moment and mostly sim thru the season to get to the draft I can understand the athletes being unhappy because it shortens their career earnings, but is that a bad thing ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Liverpool aren't as consistent as the other three, but they are capable of playing on a different level from the teams below them. I'm thinking of this skilful passing game, played at high pace, which marks out the Champions League teams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshore Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Its only a big four now as thats how many champion league places are available. If Platini gets his wish to make the champions league less of a closed shop to the big leagues (tv revenue led) then we'll go down to 3 places so we'll end up with a big 3. While Liverpool would be the most obvious team to break into that top 3, it would be interesting to see how a season or two outside the champions league would affect their team spending. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raconteur Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Definitely agree with the opening post of Top Three plus Liverpool - I don't think Liverpool have mounted a realistic challenge for years but they are clearly a level above the likes of Everton and Villa... As for the whole economic-philosophy tangent I have just one little question: What do you reckon the liberal workplace laws of the European Union would think of the draft and salary cap proposals? You're kidding yourselves - the philosophy of the EU is deregulation, not more regulation! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 I think that UEFA is going to have to tackle this whole issue sooner rather than later. If things remain as they are the situation will be that within the EPL we will have the top 3 or 4 clubs that none have a chance of catching, but the issue will also extend to the Champions League and UEFA Cup. This year is the first time that the CL final is an all England event, but if England has all of the top talent, due to its buying power, then this may become the norm, resulting in European competitions being dominated by a handful of clubs, meaning the interest will start to drop. Unless UEFA takes this issue on and addresses the ability of a small number of clubs and their associated leagues to dominate, the various competitions will steadily decline as actual competition is reduced. They already have plans, by limiting foreigners but at the end of the day UEFA can't do a whole lot change our PL, that is governed purely by the FA. FIFA being the world's governing body have some power however at the end of the day it'll be what the FA that makes decisions about the PL and they will do nothing to stop the gravy train it is on, they will quite rightly only sanction changes that favour English clubs not clubs in Spain, Italy or Latvia or wherever. I can see a day when UEFA and the PL lock horns and to be perfectly honest due to the worldwide appeal of the PL, I would back the FA to come out as winners. Nah. The FA are members of UEFA and FIFA. If it came down to brass tacks, England would be kicked out of the European Championships and the World Cup and English clubs would be turfed from the Champions League and the UEFA Cup. No way would the FA even dare to take UEFA on. The consequences of losing would be unimaginable. Don't kid yourself that UEFA is all-powerful - look at the attendances they get from English clubs in Euro competition then compare it with, say, the French - also, only a few clubs in Germany get attendances on par with English clubs, as is the situation with Spain... Money talks - people who don't know the facts say the UK couldn't manage without the EU - absolute rubbish...it just isn't true, and UEFA need England in it for the dosh just as much as so-called 'Top' English clubs need UEFA competition...in many ways, it would benefit the whole English game if we were not allowed to compete there, as there would be more emphasis on producing our own players and there would be more chance of a variety of clubs winning the 3 main competitions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Definitely agree with the opening post of Top Three plus Liverpool - I don't think Liverpool have mounted a realistic challenge for years but they are clearly a level above the likes of Everton and Villa... As for the whole economic-philosophy tangent I have just one little question: What do you reckon the liberal workplace laws of the European Union would think of the draft and salary cap proposals? You're kidding yourselves - the philosophy of the EU is deregulation, not more regulation! Are you being serious, or is this a wind-up ? The philosophy pf the EU is DE-regulation !! That's the best one I've heard all year - ask people whose bins are emptied once a fortnight whether they agree - that is, of course, whether they know that it is because of an EU Directive that the Councils are doing this - its all to do with Land-fill etc. Also, try asking people losing their local PO whether they like it - again, another EU Directive, supposedly to allow 'Competition'... There are numerous examples but, as I have said before, this is a Football site. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raconteur Posted May 10, 2008 Share Posted May 10, 2008 Definitely agree with the opening post of Top Three plus Liverpool - I don't think Liverpool have mounted a realistic challenge for years but they are clearly a level above the likes of Everton and Villa... As for the whole economic-philosophy tangent I have just one little question: What do you reckon the liberal workplace laws of the European Union would think of the draft and salary cap proposals? You're kidding yourselves - the philosophy of the EU is deregulation, not more regulation! Are you being serious, or is this a wind-up ? The philosophy pf the EU is DE-regulation !! That's the best one I've heard all year - ask people whose bins are emptied once a fortnight whether they agree - that is, of course, whether they know that it is because of an EU Directive that the Councils are doing this - its all to do with Land-fill etc. Also, try asking people losing their local PO whether they like it - again, another EU Directive, supposedly to allow 'Competition'... There are numerous examples but, as I have said before, this is a Football site. Okay, so I'm lazy and failed to specify precisely what I meant. So, if you will allow me, when I say "the philosophy of the EU is deregulation" I mean specifically and very narrowly to the sphere under discussion ie treating football as "normal employment" Starting with Bosman and leading inexorably to the Scottish (?) player who recently won the right to buy out his contract the EU has consistently and vigorously resisted any efforts of football to be seperated from normal EU employment laws - the very laws which allowed all these footballers to challenge what is(from a strictly economic/political perspective) at best an irregular and artifical marketplace. Which was the exact point I am making. Jean-Marc Bosman won the right for footballers to be treated as normal employees who could move freely once their contract of employment had expired - something that in the general labour market is taken as a given. It may very well be that a salary cap or draft system could be beneficial to football - but just like quotas on foreign players, it simply doesn't jive with the EU's labour philosophy. Sorry to be verbose but I had previously failed to make myself understood... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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