6 + 5 = 2012

[OzzieMandias]

 

 

the idea of "local" kids/players being part of the quota appeals to me though...might be a very good way of levelling the playing field as long as you stop kids moving about between certain ages

 

 

I can't see any way that would be workable. What counts as "local"?  How would it work in, say, Birmingham or Stoke? For which team could Owen Hargreaves play?

 

 

how should i know, i don't work for fifa, i just said i liked an idea - why the snipe?

 

for arguments sake though either anyone signed up at 16 in a clubs academy or anyone signed from abroad before a certain age (say 16 again?) can qualify as "local" or "home grown" players...anyone outwith that is either senior & english or senior & foreign

 

you need to have 5 "local" or "home grown" players in your match day squad - a senior player bought from another english club couldn't be counted

 

don't see the downside...bigger clubs couldn't sign anyone between say 16 & 21 from another english club, if they tried to to sign someone from south america for instance they'd not get a work permit, if they sign them and send them to belgium or something they'd be classed as foreign when they arrive not home grown

 

work the rest out yourself, it's not my manifesto or anything, idea just appealed

 

It wasn't a snipe. It was a question.

 

If you can't handle people taking issue with your posts, perhaps a discussion board is not the ideal medium for ya.

[mrmojorisin75]

 

 

the idea of "local" kids/players being part of the quota appeals to me though...might be a very good way of levelling the playing field as long as you stop kids moving about between certain ages

 

 

I can't see any way that would be workable. What counts as "local"?  How would it work in, say, Birmingham or Stoke? For which team could Owen Hargreaves play?

 

 

how should i know, i don't work for fifa, i just said i liked an idea - why the snipe?

 

for arguments sake though either anyone signed up at 16 in a clubs academy or anyone signed from abroad before a certain age (say 16 again?) can qualify as "local" or "home grown" players...anyone outwith that is either senior & english or senior & foreign

 

you need to have 5 "local" or "home grown" players in your match day squad - a senior player bought from another english club couldn't be counted

 

don't see the downside...bigger clubs couldn't sign anyone between say 16 & 21 from another english club, if they tried to to sign someone from south america for instance they'd not get a work permit, if they sign them and send them to belgium or something they'd be classed as foreign when they arrive not home grown

 

work the rest out yourself, it's not my manifesto or anything, idea just appealed

 

It wasn't a snipe. It was a question.

 

If you can't handle people taking issue with your posts, perhaps a discussion board is not the ideal medium for ya.

 

so can you still not see any way that would be workable?

[Guest alijmitchell]

I think with what Platini and Blatter have been saying recently, this is a really controversial issue. Aside from employment laws, there are a few things to consider if there were to be 6 homegrown english players in each team.

 

Coaching - No doubt a greater emphasis on bringing youth players through the ranks would be seen by all clubs which would be good for both club and country, better coaching should mean better players. However, there is a danger of placing greater pressure on children to perform/win and develop faster to fit into the side without giving the player enough time to express themselves  and enjoy football. The possibility of over-coaching to fit quotas is a distinct possibility. Better coaching should make better players, but more coaching (of current standard) may actually deteriorate ability.

 

Transfer fees - Homegrown players prices will rocket, and those with money will buy them. Those that have a great production line may profit immensely and seek to spend their money on the remaining foreign players however, but it is unlikely that a club that sells their best homegrown players will attract big name foreigners.

 

The Top 4 - Linked to the above issue inextricably. They are currently hoovering up talent accross the continent to fill their academy and from reading Platini's statements in the last year or so, I believe this method of scouting is what he is trying to attack. The top 4 have all the money however, and will endeavour to buy any emerging talent from lower sides. The status quo will be maintained and the rest of the league will become feeder clubs (a la hibs, kilmarnock, to the old firm in the spl). The only way to combat this would be to apply restrictions on how many homegrown players could actually be bought.

 

Money - Those without it will have to sell, and will want massive fees for younger english players that may not develop well. Some teams can afford to take a gamble on these players, others cannot.

 

Quality of the football - Will the football on show actually get worse while we try to blood these players? If coaching improves and places an emphasis on technique, then maybe not, but if coaching doesn't improve, we could be restricted to watching hundreds of mediocre english players without the technical ability to match the current crop of foreigners.

 

Hypocrisy - could be seen as the authorities trying to subdue the English game. When Real Madrid, Inter Milan, Juventus and Barcelona were throwing ridiculous amounts of money around for the top players and tapping up some of the best youngsters, where was the outcry? The English game is now the dominant force in European football and Uefa and Fifa are trying to limit it knowing full well that english players are technically deficient. For the greater good or not, this could be seen as a thinly veiled attack on the mergence of premiership clubs.

 

Just my thoughts, a lot covered already.

[Guest Edd]

If this did come in then it would effectively cement what Keegan said about no other team being able to break into the big 4.

 

Think about it.  If each team needed to play 6 English players then you'd need at least a dozen, probably nearer 20, in your squad.  The price of good English players would rocket and only the top-4 could afford to compete for them.  Take away the 50+ best English players that they would sign, and the rest of the teams would be left with utter crap, but crap they had to play week in, week out.

[Guest alijmitchell]

If this did come in then it would effectively cement what Keegan said about no other team being able to break into the big 4.

 

Think about it.  If each team needed to play 6 English players then you'd need at least a dozen, probably nearer 20, in your squad.  The price of good English players would rocket and only the top-4 could afford to compete for them.  Take away the 50+ best English players that they would sign, and the rest of the teams would be left with utter crap, but crap they had to play week in, week out.

 

If uefa twinned this with restrictions on the number of homegrown players a single team can buy off another team in their own league then perhaps not. From what platini has been saying, it seems he wants to limit the power of the big 4, not increase it.

[nobby_solano]

so would this be something that would happen worldwide or is it just something to be forced on the premiership?

[NG32]

so would this be something that would happen worldwide or is it just something to be forced on the premiership?

 

Fifa is the world governing body of football.

 

However this would really clash with EU law.

 

God bless the United States of Europe!

[OzzieMandias]

 

 

the idea of "local" kids/players being part of the quota appeals to me though...might be a very good way of levelling the playing field as long as you stop kids moving about between certain ages

 

 

I can't see any way that would be workable. What counts as "local"?  How would it work in, say, Birmingham or Stoke? For which team could Owen Hargreaves play?

 

 

how should i know, i don't work for fifa, i just said i liked an idea - why the snipe?

 

for arguments sake though either anyone signed up at 16 in a clubs academy or anyone signed from abroad before a certain age (say 16 again?) can qualify as "local" or "home grown" players...anyone outwith that is either senior & english or senior & foreign

 

you need to have 5 "local" or "home grown" players in your match day squad - a senior player bought from another english club couldn't be counted

 

don't see the downside...bigger clubs couldn't sign anyone between say 16 & 21 from another english club, if they tried to to sign someone from south america for instance they'd not get a work permit, if they sign them and send them to belgium or something they'd be classed as foreign when they arrive not home grown

 

work the rest out yourself, it's not my manifesto or anything, idea just appealed

 

It wasn't a snipe. It was a question.

 

If you can't handle people taking issue with your posts, perhaps a discussion board is not the ideal medium for ya.

 

so can you still not see any way that would be workable?

 

Depends how you define "local", hence my question. In simple terms it would advantage some teams more than others.

[Decky]

So this basically means Man Utd will continue to clean up if this goes ahead?

 

Rio

Rooney

Hargreaves

Carrick

 

4 starters already right there, im sure they can sign up the best young English players in clubs outside of the big 4 to make up the numbers in preperation for this aswell.

[Gash]

I am thinking, that English players would be working harder to be there VERY best if this stupid law isnt in place. Because for example Mark Randall at Arsenal he is working his hardest to make the breakthrough and is moving places. But if for example he HAS to be played at Arsenal because there are no other englishmen fit/as good whatever, will he be working as hard?

I think not.

[Decky]

I think so as they will just replace him.

[KaKa]

I am thinking, that English players would be working harder to be there VERY best if this stupid law isnt in place. Because for example Mark Randall at Arsenal he is working his hardest to make the breakthrough and is moving places. But if for example he HAS to be played at Arsenal because there are no other englishmen fit/as good whatever, will he be working as hard?

I think not.

 

This is an important point. The last thing you want is for English lads to feel they are entitled to a place in the team.

 

Just yesterday Capello was emphasizing the point that it's not really about the quantity of English players, but more the quality. I believe the foreigners are really psuhing English youngsters to improve and become better, quality players.

 

Take that genuine competition away and I feel the overall quality of theseplayers will be greatly reduced.

[Guest Jawesome]

I'd settle for people in this country to realise that we aren't as good as Brazil were in the 70's and we simply aren't good enough to compete with the likes of Italy, France, Germany, Spain and even Holland on an international level in Europe.  Why do we always have this false illusion that we're going to do well at every major tournament?  It's starting to get embarrassing.  Some people think we have a god given right to be better than the likes of Portugal and Croatia when we really haven't.

[Teasy]

Watching the clip of Blatter on SSN earlier got the impression that this has come about because the Premiership is dominating the Champions League & UEFA don't like it.

 

one f***ing season

 

One season?.. what are you on about?  Out of the 8 teams taking part in the last four Champions League finals five of them have been English teams!  With only two Italian teams and one Spanish!

[Teasy]

I'd settle for people in this country to realise that we aren't as good as Brazil were in the 70's and we simply aren't good enough to compete with the likes of Italy, France, Germany, Spain and even Holland on an international level in Europe.  Why do we always have this false illusion that we're going to do well at every major tournament?  It's starting to get embarrassing.  Some people think we have a god given right to be better than the likes of Portugal and Croatia when we really haven't.

 

This is similar to all the negative s*** going round this forum about Newcastle.  Lets all accept we can't compete with Everton and Blackburn  mackems.gif

 

Get a f***ing grip, of course England can compete with the teams you mentioned.  We have done in the past and we will do in the future.

 

We certainly haven't matched the likes of Italy, France and Germany when it comes to winning competitions, but we can certainly compete with them (and Holland have won less then us as have Spain arguably).

[Guest Edd]

If this did come in then it would effectively cement what Keegan said about no other team being able to break into the big 4.

 

Think about it.  If each team needed to play 6 English players then you'd need at least a dozen, probably nearer 20, in your squad.  The price of good English players would rocket and only the top-4 could afford to compete for them.  Take away the 50+ best English players that they would sign, and the rest of the teams would be left with utter crap, but crap they had to play week in, week out.

 

If uefa twinned this with restrictions on the number of homegrown players a single team can buy off another team in their own league then perhaps not. From what platini has been saying, it seems he wants to limit the power of the big 4, not increase it.

Platini want to limit the power of the big 4 relative to other leagues and by stopping them buying all the foreign talent from other clubs that's exactly what this ruling would do.  It would however as I said make the divide between the big 4 and the rest in the domestic league even bigger.

[mrmojorisin75]

 

 

the idea of "local" kids/players being part of the quota appeals to me though...might be a very good way of levelling the playing field as long as you stop kids moving about between certain ages

 

 

I can't see any way that would be workable. What counts as "local"?  How would it work in, say, Birmingham or Stoke? For which team could Owen Hargreaves play?

 

 

how should i know, i don't work for fifa, i just said i liked an idea - why the snipe?

 

for arguments sake though either anyone signed up at 16 in a clubs academy or anyone signed from abroad before a certain age (say 16 again?) can qualify as "local" or "home grown" players...anyone outwith that is either senior & english or senior & foreign

 

you need to have 5 "local" or "home grown" players in your match day squad - a senior player bought from another english club couldn't be counted

 

don't see the downside...bigger clubs couldn't sign anyone between say 16 & 21 from another english club, if they tried to to sign someone from south america for instance they'd not get a work permit, if they sign them and send them to belgium or something they'd be classed as foreign when they arrive not home grown

 

work the rest out yourself, it's not my manifesto or anything, idea just appealed

 

It wasn't a snipe. It was a question.

 

If you can't handle people taking issue with your posts, perhaps a discussion board is not the ideal medium for ya.

 

so can you still not see any way that would be workable?

 

Depends how you define "local", hence my question. In simple terms it would advantage some teams more than others.

 

i see, so did you read any of my last post or not? 

 

if you're gonna "take issue" with a post it'd help if you read and counter argued the points made, that's why i took it as sniping originally...you appear to have dismissed something as not workable for no reason other than you deem it non workable, from what i can see

 

and before i have to explain myself for your next post i'll point out someone else used the word local that you originally picked up on, i then changed it to "home grown" or whatever you want to call it, before you start in with the semantics

[UV]

If this did come in then it would effectively cement what Keegan said about no other team being able to break into the big 4.

 

Think about it.  If each team needed to play 6 English players then you'd need at least a dozen, probably nearer 20, in your squad.  The price of good English players would rocket and only the top-4 could afford to compete for them.  Take away the 50+ best English players that they would sign, and the rest of the teams would be left with utter crap, but crap they had to play week in, week out.

 

If uefa twinned this with restrictions on the number of homegrown players a single team can buy off another team in their own league then perhaps not. From what platini has been saying, it seems he wants to limit the power of the big 4, not increase it.

Platini want to limit the power of the big 4 relative to other leagues and by stopping them buying all the foreign talent from other clubs that's exactly what this ruling would do.  It would however as I said make the divide between the big 4 and the rest in the domestic league even bigger.

 

A team which can pick and choose the best from a country's pool of talent will in general have a smaller advantage over it's domestic rivals than one which can pick and choose the best from the entire world's pool of talent.

The opposite would only be the case if the second tier of players in that country were also moving abroad in preference to playing for second tier clubs in their own country, or the pool of players in that country was so small that the second tier of players really are shit in comparison to the top few (this is NOT the case in England).

[Guest Geordiesned]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/7421348.stm

 

Fifa's "six plus five" proposal on foreign players has been branded as discriminatory and illegal by the European Commission.

 

"We're giving red card to the rule," said Vladimir Spidla, Europe's Commissioner for Equal Opportunities.

 

President Sepp Blatter wants to limit the number of foreign players in each team to five by 2012.

 

And he said he expects the plan to be endorsed by Fifa delegates at the ruling body's congress later this week.

 

Blatter is keen to work with the European Union and Uefa to make it a reality.

 

However, the Commission believes a quota on foreign footballers would be incompatible with European Union law which allows workers from the EU to move freely between member countries.

 

As reported by BBC sports editor Mihir Bose last week, Blatter has backed off his initial intention to take on the EU and its laws if necessary to force the plans through, stressing Fifa would proceed "within the law".

 

But while in Sydney for Fifa's annual conference this week, Blatter suggested rules restricting the number of foreign players could still start in the 2010/11 season, with a minimum of four home-grown players being required in each team.

 

He added he expects it to grow to six, with a maximum of five foreigners, by 2012/13 - and claims the plan has the backing of key European delegates.

 

In contrast, the "home-grown players" rule which is set to be expanded from next season so that eight players in a Champions League or Uefa Cup squad must have been developed by the club has received EU backing.

 

To be eligible, a player of any nationality must have been developed by the club for three years between the ages of 15 and 21.

 

Jan Figel, EU Commissioner for Education, Training and Youth, said Uefa's proposals did not discriminate against nationality and encouraged clubs to develop their academies.

 

"Measures which require the top European clubs to preserve quality training structures seem to me to be necessary," said Figel.

 

"The Uefa rule thus avoid the risk of professional football clubs abandoning training structures."

 

[Teasy]

Jan Figel, EU Commissioner for Education, Training and Youth, said Uefa's proposals did not discriminate against nationality and encouraged clubs to develop their academies.

 

"Measures which require the top European clubs to preserve quality training structures seem to me to be necessary," said Figel.

 

"The Uefa rule thus avoid the risk of professional football clubs abandoning training structures."

 

How can anyone try to claim these rules don't discriminate against nationality?.. 

 

Keegan "Right, under the new rules any number of you English lads can play, unfortunately we're only allowed to pick 5 of the foriegn lads here, but don't worry, this isn't discrimination and has nothing do do with your nationality according to FIFA"

[Guest Knightrider]

I'm all for it. Bring it in. But only if they make it a world-wide ruling.

[indi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/7421348.stm

 

Fifa's "six plus five" proposal on foreign players has been branded as discriminatory and illegal by the European Commission.

 

"We're giving red card to the rule," said Vladimir Spidla, Europe's Commissioner for Equal Opportunities.

 

President Sepp Blatter wants to limit the number of foreign players in each team to five by 2012.

 

And he said he expects the plan to be endorsed by Fifa delegates at the ruling body's congress later this week.

 

Blatter is keen to work with the European Union and Uefa to make it a reality.

 

However, the Commission believes a quota on foreign footballers would be incompatible with European Union law which allows workers from the EU to move freely between member countries.

 

As reported by BBC sports editor Mihir Bose last week, Blatter has backed off his initial intention to take on the EU and its laws if necessary to force the plans through, stressing Fifa would proceed "within the law".

 

But while in Sydney for Fifa's annual conference this week, Blatter suggested rules restricting the number of foreign players could still start in the 2010/11 season, with a minimum of four home-grown players being required in each team.

 

He added he expects it to grow to six, with a maximum of five foreigners, by 2012/13 - and claims the plan has the backing of key European delegates.

 

In contrast, the "home-grown players" rule which is set to be expanded from next season so that eight players in a Champions League or Uefa Cup squad must have been developed by the club has received EU backing.

 

To be eligible, a player of any nationality must have been developed by the club for three years between the ages of 15 and 21.

 

Jan Figel, EU Commissioner for Education, Training and Youth, said Uefa's proposals did not discriminate against nationality and encouraged clubs to develop their academies.

 

"Measures which require the top European clubs to preserve quality training structures seem to me to be necessary," said Figel.

 

"The Uefa rule thus avoid the risk of professional football clubs abandoning training structures."

 

 

Like I said, dead in the water.

[Guest Dev]

This would very quickly destroy the EPL as the best league in the world if it came in. Everyone talking about 'talented youngsters' from England is having a laugh. To cover for injuries you'd need about 180 in the league, playing first team most of the time. 180th best English player is what, League One standard?

 

So it won't happen. A multi-billion dollar business just doesnt let itself get fucked like that.

[Offshore]

This would very quickly destroy the EPL as the best league in the world if it came in. Everyone talking about 'talented youngsters' from England is having a laugh. To cover for injuries you'd need about 180 in the league, playing first team most of the time. 180th best English player is what, League One standard?

 

So it won't happen. A multi-billion dollar business just doesnt let itself get f***ed like that.

 

The EPL is only the 'best league in the world' because Sky, the main broadcaster and backer of the league keeps on telling us it is, outside the teams that qualify for the champs league no-one probably gives a real toss about the rest.

 

If this could be done, allowing for EU law etc, i'm for it.

[Guest johnnyappleseed]

Jan Figel, EU Commissioner for Education, Training and Youth, said Uefa's proposals did not discriminate against nationality and encouraged clubs to develop their academies.

 

"Measures which require the top European clubs to preserve quality training structures seem to me to be necessary," said Figel.

 

"The Uefa rule thus avoid the risk of professional football clubs abandoning training structures."

 

How can anyone try to claim these rules don't discriminate against nationality?.. 

 

Keegan "Right, under the new rules any number of you English lads can play, unfortunately we're only allowed to pick 5 of the foriegn lads here, but don't worry, this isn't discrimination and has nothing do do with your nationality according to FIFA"

The EU is saying FIFA's proposal discriminates, but UEFA's proposal (which is just an extension of their homegrown rule for European competition) doesn't discriminate against nationality. How do we know it doesn't (working example)? Chelsea had problems with fulfilling the requirements last year and lost 2 squad places (they have like 5 English starters) and Arsenal with none had no such worries because their foreign players like Cesc, Clichy, Senderos, Diaby, etc etc are homegrown by UEFA's standards because they've been on Arsenal's books for at least 3 seasons between the ages of 15-21.