Have we been punching above our weight?

[Mick]

sad but true...nufc is slowly rotting into midtable also rans. but hell, is it not more exciting these days when we match up with the top 4 and pray there is not a mauling and hope we can hold our own against Pompey and Blackburn? this has been happening for past seasons and really this is more exciting (and upsetting) for us fans more than when we were in Champ League days.

 

Excellent points as always.

[Mick]

 

It can hardly be classed as a gift, either. Certainly not in his case anyway.

 

I think you're being too hard on him and you under-estimate his value both to this forum and life in general.

[Guest elbee909]

sad but true...nufc is slowly rotting into midtable also rans. but hell, is it not more exciting these days when we match up with the top 4 and pray there is not a mauling and hope we can hold our own against Pompey and Blackburn? this has been happening for past seasons and really this is more exciting (and upsetting) for us fans more than when we were in Champ League days.

 

Excellent points as always.

 

Indeed, the only answer to that drivel is 'no'.

[Mick]

 

Indeed, the only answer to that drivel is 'no'.

 

At first sight it may appear as drivel, read it a few times and the merits of the post are obvious.  I've made the mistake of failing to digest the message that becomes more obvious with every read of the post.

[OzzieMandias]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

Agree with this post 100 percent.

[thedudeabides]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

A very good post. 

[GM]

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

This is absolutely 100% what I think too.

[Mick]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

I missed this but totally agree.

 

We would all love to be playing brilliant football and winning every game but it's not going to just happen.  We need to build on solid foundations and move forwards as a club.  We've made the big step before but we haven't been able to maintain it long enough and it's gone as quickly as it's arrived.  Under Keegan the first time and Sir Bobby we built something which we failed to capitalise on.  We could throw money at the problem and get close to the top and just end up where we started from.  I think we need to do something different this time and build from the bottom up so that we can maintain our position and then move forwards again.

 

Will it work?  No idea but I hope it does and I hope if or when we reach those heights again we're more capable of sustaining our challenge and hopefully putting something in the trophy cabinet.

[GM]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

I missed this but totally agree.

 

We would all love to be playing brilliant football and winning every game but it's not going to just happen.  We need to build on solid foundations and move forwards as a club.  We've made the big step before but we haven't been able to maintain it long enough and it's gone as quickly as it's arrived.  Under Keegan the first time and Sir Bobby we built something which we failed to capitalise on.  We could throw money at the problem and get close to the top and just end up where we started from.  I think we need to do something different this time and build from the bottom up so that we can maintain our position and then move forwards again.

 

Will it work?  No idea but I hope it does and I hope if or when we reach those heights again we're more capable of sustaining our challenge and hopefully putting something in the trophy cabinet.

 

And for your sake, I hope you live long enough to see it all come to fruition.

[OzzieMandias]

Obviously none of us know whether it will work. The forum currently seems to be divided between those who hope it will, and those who have written it off before it's even really begun.

[Cajun]

Obviously none of us know whether it will work. The forum currently seems to be divided between those who hope it will, and those who have written it off before it's even really begun. are desperate to be proved right.

 

FYP.

[Mick]

 

And for your sake, I hope you live long enough to see it all come to fruition.

 

You should hope that happens, if not then I'll bastard haunt you. 

 

[SteveMc]

Top post Bob.  I, for what it is worth, am a glass half full kind of guy.  8th or 9th would represent good progress next season, as long as we have a slightly younger squad, drawing slightly more modest wages. This is a medium to long term job

[afar]

Agree it's a very eloquently put post, which is the norm for Bob. He makes a very compelling argument as ever.  There are a couple of things though I do take issue with.

 

When Ashley bought the club, he took on the debt, it's not our debt, never has been it's his debt. Clearing a large chunk of it makes financial sense if you have the capital to do so.

 

I don't know how he can say he is totally in agreement about the way the new board is going about things, when we so far, even the most ITK of us, has no idea how we are going about anything !!

 

For me the Jury is very much still out on Ashley, the cautious approach may yield great rewards but it's just as likely to lead to disaster as the spare no expense route. There's a middle ground to be found here and Ashley needs to find it fast IMO.

[Mick]

Agree it's a very eloquently put post, which is the norm for Bob. He makes a very compelling argument as ever.  There are a couple of things though I do take issue with.

 

When Ashley bought the club, he took on the debt, it's not our debt, never has been it's his debt. Clearing a large chunk of it makes financial sense if you have the capital to do so.

 

I don't know how he can say he is totally in agreement about the way the new board is going about things, when we so far, even the most ITK of us, has no idea how we are going about anything !!

 

For me the Jury is very much still out on Ashley, the cautious approach may yield great rewards but it's just as likely to lead to disaster as the spare no expese route. There's a middle ground to be found here and Ashley needs to find it fast IMO.

 

The jury should be still out on Ashley because so far he hasn't delivered but he is making changes and if they work then we'll be stronger for that.

[SteveMc]

I agree we do need to be pragmatic, along with the long term view, and that means 2 or 3 good experienced players in key positions before the end of the window.  However, I think the idea of buying young and hungry and talented is right.

[afar]

Agree it's a very eloquently put post, which is the norm for Bob. He makes a very compelling argument as ever.  There are a couple of things though I do take issue with.

 

When Ashley bought the club, he took on the debt, it's not our debt, never has been it's his debt. Clearing a large chunk of it makes financial sense if you have the capital to do so.

 

I don't know how he can say he is totally in agreement about the way the new board is going about things, when we so far, even the most ITK of us, has no idea how we are going about anything !!

 

For me the Jury is very much still out on Ashley, the cautious approach may yield great rewards but it's just as likely to lead to disaster as the spare no expese route. There's a middle ground to be found here and Ashley needs to find it fast IMO.

 

The jury should be still out on Ashley because so far he hasn't delivered but he is making changes and if they work then we'll be stronger for that.

 

Absolutely, you won't get an argument from me on that.

[johnnypd]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

i agree with some of that. about how foundations need to be put in place otherwise any kind of success will not be sustained (see decline after keegan and robson's tenures).

 

however i disagree with the bit about the loan. it was well known that large portions of the debt had to be repaid quickly if the club changed hands as the shepherds and halls had made an agreement with the lenders. so paying off the loans should be considered part of Ashley's purchase price, he didn't do it out of the kindness of his heart. though it is unknown if the loan has been 'paid off' or simply shifted elsewhere.

 

it is good news in the long-term sense that if ashley sells us, we won't be saddled with debts. however it means fuck all to us supporters in the short to medium-term if the money saved each year is not ploughed back into transfer funds. as it stood the loan repayments were £6.3m per year, so not a huge amount anyway. so far we've not seen any of this. and if he is a multi-billionaire, then yes, i would expect him to put some of his own funds in for transfers. you talk about thaksin at city but he is not as rich as ashley yet has no problems sanctioning big bids. as it stands we've spent something like £150,000 net since the end of last season which is pretty pathetic. i'm sure this will improve before sept 1st but so far that's all we have to go on and as others have said, the jury is still out on mike ashley, for all shepherd's major faults, ashley's done nowt in comparison. now we have a proven manager with a track record in spending well we should be backing him with tens of millions.

[GM]

 

And for your sake, I hope you live long enough to see it all come to fruition.

 

You should hope that happens, if not then I'll bastard haunt you. 

 

 

And you would as well. I know that much for fucking certain!

[OzzieMandias]

Obviously none of us know whether it will work. The forum currently seems to be divided between those who hope it will, and those who have written it off before it's even really begun. are desperate to be proved right.

 

FYP.

 

 

[merlin]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

Agree with this post 100 percent.

 

Yes  - all this is true ; to answer the question, NO, not punching above our weight, if anything, punching below it, as we were for more than 10 years, the second-largest home crowd in England but won NOWT..

 

YES, we WILL have to suffer a few seasons of mediocrity before we are in any position to attempt to attain former status..too much damage has been done, but the club is at least almost debt-free by modern standards, and that will stand us in good stead over the next few years when others start to struggle with finances.

[mrmojorisin75]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

i'll join in with the general back slapping at this post and concur that upward momentum is the goal and it doesn't have to be meteoric, but i'd like to point out the following with regards ashleys spending/paying off the debt and so on:

 

think it's johnnypd who keeps pointing out about TV money and he's right - what is it now, a guaranteed 30-40m a year?  maybe even 50m?  i'm not sure but i know it's a fucksite more than the 10m net we spent on players last year and the 2-3m so far this year

 

regardless of whatever ashleys done with the debt & buying the club he shouldn't be allowed to get away with not investing this cash (i'll totally ignore the ST sales money or any other cash in this scenario); lets be on the conservative side and say 20m for each of the last two seasons and he's invested a max of 15m so far

 

that is not good enough, and i can't understand why anyone would accept it as good enough for our club...nobody is asking for 100m to be spent on the team tomorrow but some of this cash needs to be invested in the team, simple as that

 

anyone got a comeback to that?  'cause i'd like to hear it

[johnnypd]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

i'll join in with the general back slapping at this post and concur that upward momentum is the goal and it doesn't have to be meteoric, but i'd like to point out the following with regards ashleys spending/paying off the debt and so on:

 

think it's johnnypd who keeps pointing out about TV money and he's right - what is it now, a guaranteed 30-40m a year?  maybe even 50m?  i'm not sure but i know it's a fucksite more than the 10m net we spent on players last year and the 2-3m so far this year

 

regardless of whatever ashleys done with the debt & buying the club he shouldn't be allowed to get away with not investing this cash (i'll totally ignore the ST sales money or any other cash in this scenario); lets be on the conservative side and say 20m for each of the last two seasons and he's invested a max of 15m so far

 

that is not good enough, and i can't understand why anyone would accept it as good enough for our club...nobody is asking for 100m to be spent on the team tomorrow but some of this cash needs to be invested in the team, simple as that

 

anyone got a comeback to that?  'cause i'd like to hear it

 

as far as i can work out since the end of last season we've spent less than a million net on transfers. there's a question mark over much Emre went for, the BBC say as much as £8m and others as say we recouped what we paid out (£3.8m). if we've received anything more than £5m then we've actually made a profit on transfers since Ashley's arrived.

 

if you consider we were making a £6m profit before player trading and amortisation (2006 plc results) before Ashley came in, plus the fact we're saving the same amount from not paying back loans, and the fact we're receiving £18m more on Premiership TV money than we did before Ashley, there should be, assuming costs have remained around the same level, somewhere around £30m for transfers before you even talk about Ashley putting his hand in his own billionaire's pocket. there's also the fact we could spend next summer's tv money if we want to be ambitious, which is what many clubs did last summer (61% higher than the amount of transfer fees paid the summer before). the fact we've spent less than a million is poor. tho again, there's still 5 weeks for this to change, so here's hoping.

[mrmojorisin75]

Firstly, it does make me wince a bit when people say that Ashley should put his hand in his pocket. He's already cleared £90m of debt, which in the medium to long-term, is a fantastic bonus for the club.

 

Ever since the first Keegan era, I've had this sense that the club has been desperate to get back to the top, but not been realistic about what it takes. It's like there's a belief that it only needs one or two big signings, or a change of manager, to restore us to our supposedly rightful position. There's been an atmosphere of desperation that hasn't helped.

 

The new Board is taking the IMO entirely correct position that we have to be build from where we are, not from where we'd like to be, and that in the current times, you can spend £100 million and still finish outside the top four. A certain ex-Thailand Prime Minister is going to find that out the hard way.

 

The other problem is we missed the chance to establish ourselves in the top four, during the Sir Bob era. At a crucial point, when we should have kicked on, Sir Bob wasn't backed, and we started sliding back again. It's now more difficult to get up there than it was 10 years ago, and we just have to face that.

 

What's important is that we start to establish an upward momentum. It doesn't have to be meteoric. We just need a sense that the club and the team is improving.

 

i'll join in with the general back slapping at this post and concur that upward momentum is the goal and it doesn't have to be meteoric, but i'd like to point out the following with regards ashleys spending/paying off the debt and so on:

 

think it's johnnypd who keeps pointing out about TV money and he's right - what is it now, a guaranteed 30-40m a year?  maybe even 50m?  i'm not sure but i know it's a fucksite more than the 10m net we spent on players last year and the 2-3m so far this year

 

regardless of whatever ashleys done with the debt & buying the club he shouldn't be allowed to get away with not investing this cash (i'll totally ignore the ST sales money or any other cash in this scenario); lets be on the conservative side and say 20m for each of the last two seasons and he's invested a max of 15m so far

 

that is not good enough, and i can't understand why anyone would accept it as good enough for our club...nobody is asking for 100m to be spent on the team tomorrow but some of this cash needs to be invested in the team, simple as that

 

anyone got a comeback to that?  'cause i'd like to hear it

 

as far as i can work out since the end of last season we've spent less than a million net on transfers. there's a question mark over much Emre went for, the BBC say as much as £8m and others as say we recouped what we paid out (£3.8m). if we've received anything more than £5m then we've actually made a profit on transfers since Ashley's arrived.

 

if you consider we were making a £6m profit before player trading and amortisation before Ashley came in, plus the fact we're saving the same amount from not paying back loans, and the fact we're receiving £18m more on Premiership TV money than we did before Ashley, there should be, assuming costs have remained around the same level, somewhere around £30m for transfers before you even talk about Ashley putting his hand in his own billionaire's pocket. the fact we've spent less than a million is poor. tho again, there's still 5 weeks for this to change, so here's hoping.

 

aye right enough johnny, still time indeed and here's hoping!

[UV]

as far as i can work out since the end of last season we've spent less than a million net on transfers. there's a question mark over much Emre went for, the BBC say as much as £8m and others as say we recouped what we paid out (£3.8m). if we've received anything more than £5m then we've actually made a profit on transfers since Ashley's arrived.

 

if you consider we were making a £6m profit before player trading and amortisation (2006 plc results) before Ashley came in, plus the fact we're saving the same amount from not paying back loans, and the fact we're receiving £18m more on Premiership TV money than we did before Ashley, there should be, assuming costs have remained around the same level, somewhere around £30m for transfers before you even talk about Ashley putting his hand in his own billionaire's pocket. there's also the fact we could spend next summer's tv money if we want to be ambitious, which is what many clubs did last summer (61% higher than the amount of transfer fees paid the summer before). the fact we've spent less than a million is poor. tho again, there's still 5 weeks for this to change, so here's hoping.

 

You have to filter in wages, but yes that's exactly right. We're not paupers as a club, even without European football we still have the 6th highest turnover in the league. Noone is asking Ashley for a handout here, just for him to reinvest what the club makes back into the club.

 

I don't agree with this resigned attitude that there necessarily has to be some kind of consolidation or years of mediocrity before we can then push on. That's not to say that if we show some ambition and don't immediately get back into the CL I'll be shouting Ashley out. Trying and failing is acceptable. Not trying to the limit of our ability is not.

 

Man City were in a far far worse state squad wise last year than we are now. Thaksin spent a fair amount, but it wasn't extortionate, and he has still spent nothing more than he will expect to recoup in the future. I keep hearing that it's different now because of all these new Billionaire owners, but apart from Abramovich, none of these new billionaire owners are footballing philanthropists. They're not doing it for the love of the game. They expect to make money at the end of the day, and even without success you can bet that they will not lose any of their own money in the process. Even Abramovich has now got Chelsea in a position where he could conceivably make back the money he's put in within 5 to 10 years if Chelsea stay where they currently are.

 

it is good news in the long-term sense that if ashley sells us, we won't be saddled with debts.

 

That's not necessarily true, as anyone buying us in the future could do it with money borrowed against the club a la Man U and Liverpool.