Joint Statement from "The Mag" and "True Faith".

[Mick]

Pete, the point about accountability was to emphasise whether people should be directing their anger at Ashley or elsewhere. Ashley is accountable for what happened, doesnt mean he made it happen.

 

I'm not sure people are against the DoF position per se, i think they are 'against Keegan leaving the club' and that is it.

 

I do have experience of managing larger organisations and therefore know that they cannot work unless everybody is aligned around the strategy. If one of my people was working against the business strategy, i'd fire them at the first opportunity. Not sure thats what happened here either.

 

As for the last point, basing your potentially destructive decisions on the idea that we are bound to be next up for a multi-billionaire takeover is, i'm afraid, just like a 6 year old shouting 'Santa IS coming'. If Santa does exist, then believe me, it wont make a blind bit of difference what the fans think, say or do, or what the owner says or does (only what he thinks). If he does exist, they will buy the club no matter what goes on in pie shops around the ground.

 

Again I agree with most of that, I also think the DoF could work but I think he should report to the manager so that he can't undermine him.  I think some people are pissed off that Keegan has gone but the worst part about it for me is the manner in which he's gone and the lies which the club have peddled in the latest statement.

[ChezGiven]

Pete, the point about accountability was to emphasise whether people should be directing their anger at Ashley or elsewhere. Ashley is accountable for what happened, doesnt mean he made it happen.

 

I'm not sure people are against the DoF position per se, i think they are 'against Keegan leaving the club' and that is it.

 

I do have experience of managing larger organisations and therefore know that they cannot work unless everybody is aligned around the strategy. If one of my people was working against the business strategy, i'd fire them at the first opportunity. Not sure thats what happened here either.

 

As for the last point, basing your potentially destructive decisions on the idea that we are bound to be next up for a multi-billionaire takeover is, i'm afraid, just like a 6 year old shouting 'Santa IS coming'. If Santa does exist, then believe me, it wont make a blind bit of difference what the fans think, say or do, or what the owner says or does (only what he thinks). If he does exist, they will buy the club no matter what goes on in pie shops around the ground.

 

Wooo! I thought no one was going to reply, all the effort would have been wasted!

 

Ashley may not have made it happen, but he could sure as hell done more to stop it - again, good enough reason to be pissed off if you ask me. He's also at the top of the tree, like it or not the person at the top will always get external shit directed at them, then they'll run it downhill to those below them internally - worked my fair share in some pretty beasting organisations and have first hand experience of that.

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the reason for people's continued anger. Of course, Keegan being Keegan has made a massive difference, but the concerns run far beyond that (well, to me and a lot of people on here at least) and relate to the entire set up at the club and the way it's been run these last few weeks, and potentially a long time since.

 

I'd hope if one of your key staff members wasn't aligned to strategy but you were working client site and knew he was very important to maintaining relations with client and customers then you would at least try to sit down face to face with the person in question and attempt to discuss the issue and compromise. Even if you could not do so then at least you'd shake hands at the end, say no hard feelings and not dredge it up with the client next time you speak, especially if you knew that the staff member who was leaving had really cared about the company itself and the client you were working for and the feeling was mutual. (Stretching this analogy now i realise).

 

Your last statement totally contradicts your statement in your previous post:

 

 

When it becomes clear that there is a better alternative then good work can be done applying pressure for him to sell if thats what people want

 

 

Either you can make a difference or you can't?

 

Peace out

 

 

 

They did try to sit down with Keegan, he wasnt having any of it apparently.

 

I agree there are some contradictory elements to what i'm saying as i dont want to piss all over people's efforts.

 

The reality is that Ashley wont sell unless someone is prepared to pay his asking price, and i can see no harm in 'Ashley Out' campaigning when its clear that there is someone on the horizon. If you say there will never be any forewarning or prior knowledge if a groupis interested in buying then that answers my question about the point of campaigning in the first place.

 

 

[Baggio]

Had no idea where to put this, here seems appropriate but i apologise if it doesnt flow from previous posts in this thread. Just some thoughts on the appropriateness of directing anger at Ashley.

 

I'm having real difficulty understanding what drives this blind frothing hatred of Ashley.

 

He's been tight in the transfer market, Freddy was better at understanding when to loosen the purse strings but all he did was say 'get on with it' to his management team months ago and stepped away from the day to day. Big mistake but then the problem was with Wise and not Ashley. Ashley should take the flak in the same way that the Chancellor of the exchequer should take the flak for the economy. Wise was the spurious lender, the driving force behind the creidt crunch, Ashley was far removed from the real problem but of course should be held 'accountable'. Accountability and blame are often a long way apart.

 

They also tried to keep hold of Keegan and offered talks to try and sort out the differences. Clearly they didnt want him to leave, or realised their mistake.

 

I really believe everyone's energy and focus should be on ousting Wise and not Ashley and i say this for some very important reasons. If ashley's position becomes untenable he will sell the club. Really. That means a new owner. In this case, we should all have a look at the history of the past 2 years and remember what happened the last time the club was sold and how that turned out.

 

Who will look to buy a club from a beleagured chairman being forced to quit the club? Long term investors looking to plough 200m into the club? That means they have 0.5bn at their disposal now? They would have bought it already if it was for sale.

 

I reckon the likes of Belgravia (one director dead in mysterious circumstances, the other now in prison??) who were after us at the same time as Ashley would be the type of candidates looking to opportunistically take the club at a low price.

 

Some of you have the seen the club change hands more than once, but the lesson of the last time is be very careful what you wish for. Its is fatuous and stupid to think that 'the trend has been set in the next 2 years all prem clubs will be owned by mulit-billionaires, get ashley out and its inevitable we will be the next man city' Thats the logic of a 6 year old on christmas eve.

 

The voices of those who released the press release should be heard and it should be made very clear that the fans are f***ed off with the running of the club. However, untill its clear that the alternative is 'potentially better' (lets face it, the experience of the last year shoud have shown everyone you can never tell), then focus the energy against those who caused this situation. Ashley is not that man. I say that on the basis of my experience of managing large organisations.

 

When it becomes clear that there is a better alternative then good work can be done applying pressure for him to sell if thats what people want. Until then i think all this is counter-productive and will do nothing but exacerbate the soul-destroying and pointless relationship between the club and the media. The circus is in town and is staying basically.

 

P.S. Merlin comparing the situation to Hitler and Nazi Germany just shows how out of perspective and out of touch from reality some people are

 

20,000 on the waiting list? Aye, when the ground held 36,000 but dont let reality get in the way.

 

 

Good post Chez, the only problem I have with it is about Ashley wanting to speak to Keegan, I've been told that Keegan received a letter inviting him to a meeting with Llambias, the letter stated that the transfer policy would not be changed to give him a veto on transfers but they were willing to talk to him.  That sounds like a one way conversation to me.

 

Where did you hear what the letter contained?

[Allmo]

Mick, if that is true about what the letter said, then I think it must have been a ploy by Llambias to give the impression that Keegan wasn't willing to comprimise, and an attempt to shift more blame onto Keegan for the whole debacle than is deserved.  i.e. We tried to meet with him to sort all of this out, but he declined and resigned.

 

Thats obviously only an opinion but its one I can easily believe with the current lot in charge.

[PRL]

Pete, the point about accountability was to emphasise whether people should be directing their anger at Ashley or elsewhere. Ashley is accountable for what happened, doesnt mean he made it happen.

 

I'm not sure people are against the DoF position per se, i think they are 'against Keegan leaving the club' and that is it.

 

I do have experience of managing larger organisations and therefore know that they cannot work unless everybody is aligned around the strategy. If one of my people was working against the business strategy, i'd fire them at the first opportunity. Not sure thats what happened here either.

 

As for the last point, basing your potentially destructive decisions on the idea that we are bound to be next up for a multi-billionaire takeover is, i'm afraid, just like a 6 year old shouting 'Santa IS coming'. If Santa does exist, then believe me, it wont make a blind bit of difference what the fans think, say or do, or what the owner says or does (only what he thinks). If he does exist, they will buy the club no matter what goes on in pie shops around the ground.

 

Wooo! I thought no one was going to reply, all the effort would have been wasted!

 

Ashley may not have made it happen, but he could sure as hell done more to stop it - again, good enough reason to be pissed off if you ask me. He's also at the top of the tree, like it or not the person at the top will always get external shit directed at them, then they'll run it downhill to those below them internally - worked my fair share in some pretty beasting organisations and have first hand experience of that.

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the reason for people's continued anger. Of course, Keegan being Keegan has made a massive difference, but the concerns run far beyond that (well, to me and a lot of people on here at least) and relate to the entire set up at the club and the way it's been run these last few weeks, and potentially a long time since.

 

I'd hope if one of your key staff members wasn't aligned to strategy but you were working client site and knew he was very important to maintaining relations with client and customers then you would at least try to sit down face to face with the person in question and attempt to discuss the issue and compromise. Even if you could not do so then at least you'd shake hands at the end, say no hard feelings and not dredge it up with the client next time you speak, especially if you knew that the staff member who was leaving had really cared about the company itself and the client you were working for and the feeling was mutual. (Stretching this analogy now i realise).

 

Your last statement totally contradicts your statement in your previous post:

 

 

When it becomes clear that there is a better alternative then good work can be done applying pressure for him to sell if thats what people want

 

 

Either you can make a difference or you can't?

 

Peace out

 

 

 

They did try to sit down with Keegan, he wasnt having any of it apparently.

 

I agree there are some contradictory elements to what i'm saying as i dont want to piss all over people's efforts.

 

The reality is that Ashley wont sell unless someone is prepared to pay his asking price, and i can see no harm in 'Ashley Out' campaigning when its clear that there is someone on the horizon. If you say there will never be any forewarning or prior knowledge if a groupis interested in buying then that answers my question about the point of campaigning in the first place.

 

 

 

Cool, i enjoyed that, thank you for some reasoned conversation - back to trying to do some work, going to be a late one i fear!

[Mick]

 

Where did you hear what the letter contained?

 

I've got to go out for a couple of hours but will try and answer that when I get back, stay tuned. 

[UV]

Loads of people noticed these "so- called embarrassing things". The dogs/Mary Poppins comment was front page news if I recall correctly.

 

Pretending for a moment that it matters, do you imagine for one second that Ashley could not very easily be caught in such a sting operation saying far, far worse things about the club, it's staff, and the supporters. There's no doubt in my mind that the tabloids will be hatching their schemes to catch him out as we type, and with the lack of tact he has shown in his few public interviews (I hate Spurs me, cave in Afghanistan) I can only imagine what he'll come out with when pissed in private. I'm expecting to see something within the year.

[UV]

 

The reality is that Ashley wont sell unless someone is prepared to pay his asking price, and i can see no harm in 'Ashley Out' campaigning when its clear that there is someone on the horizon. If you say there will never be any forewarning or prior knowledge if a groupis interested in buying then that answers my question about the point of campaigning in the first place.

 

 

Forget campaigning as a way of forcing Ashley out. I agree it's very unlikely to work to that end. The situation is though that the club has seriously pissed off most supporters by its actions in the last week, and whether that be by negligence, by design or through no fault of his own, does not change that fact. I'm sure at this moment Ashley is regretting what has happened and if he could go back in time he'd do something to at least put off Keegan resigning (until he could undermine him a bit more ho ho).

 

However, if after such a sacred cow has been used and cast adrift, if after such an initial public outcry, there were now to be no protests, no boycoutts, no repercussions whatsoever, what message does that send to Ashley? If he can carry on through this as if nothing has happened, it tells him he can do whatever the f*** he likes with the club from now to the end of time and noone will bat an eyelid. Is that the "relationship" we want with the owner of the club?

 

Protest and affect the revenue of his other businesses now and it sends him a message so perhaps he'll at least think twice about crossing the supporters again. Do nothing, and expect an equal measure of respect to be given to our opinion in the future.

[NE5]

Had no idea where to put this, here seems appropriate but i apologise if it doesnt flow from previous posts in this thread. Just some thoughts on the appropriateness of directing anger at Ashley.

 

I'm having real difficulty understanding what drives this blind frothing hatred of Ashley.

 

He's been tight in the transfer market, Freddy was better at understanding when to loosen the purse strings but all he did was say 'get on with it' to his management team months ago and stepped away from the day to day. Big mistake but then the problem was with Wise and not Ashley. Ashley should take the flak in the same way that the Chancellor of the exchequer should take the flak for the economy. Wise was the spurious lender, the driving force behind the creidt crunch, Ashley was far removed from the real problem but of course should be held 'accountable'. Accountability and blame are often a long way apart.

 

They also tried to keep hold of Keegan and offered talks to try and sort out the differences. Clearly they didnt want him to leave, or realised their mistake.

 

I really believe everyone's energy and focus should be on ousting Wise and not Ashley and i say this for some very important reasons. If ashley's position becomes untenable he will sell the club. Really. That means a new owner. In this case, we should all have a look at the history of the past 2 years and remember what happened the last time the club was sold and how that turned out.

 

Who will look to buy a club from a beleagured chairman being forced to quit the club? Long term investors looking to plough 200m into the club? That means they have 0.5bn at their disposal now? They would have bought it already if it was for sale.

 

I reckon the likes of Belgravia (one director dead in mysterious circumstances, the other now in prison??) who were after us at the same time as Ashley would be the type of candidates looking to opportunistically take the club at a low price.

 

Some of you have the seen the club change hands more than once, but the lesson of the last time is be very careful what you wish for. Its is fatuous and stupid to think that 'the trend has been set in the next 2 years all prem clubs will be owned by mulit-billionaires, get ashley out and its inevitable we will be the next man city' Thats the logic of a 6 year old on christmas eve.

 

The voices of those who released the press release should be heard and it should be made very clear that the fans are f***ed off with the running of the club. However, untill its clear that the alternative is 'potentially better' (lets face it, the experience of the last year shoud have shown everyone you can never tell), then focus the energy against those who caused this situation. Ashley is not that man. I say that on the basis of my experience of managing large organisations.

 

When it becomes clear that there is a better alternative then good work can be done applying pressure for him to sell if thats what people want. Until then i think all this is counter-productive and will do nothing but exacerbate the soul-destroying and pointless relationship between the club and the media. The circus is in town and is staying basically.

 

P.S. Merlin comparing the situation to Hitler and Nazi Germany just shows how out of perspective and out of touch from reality some people are

 

20,000 on the waiting list? Aye, when the ground held 36,000 but dont let reality get in the way.

 

 

Good post Chez, the only problem I have with it is about Ashley wanting to speak to Keegan, I've been told that Keegan received a letter inviting him to a meeting with Llambias, the letter stated that the transfer policy would not be changed to give him a veto on transfers but they were willing to talk to him.  That sounds like a one way conversation to me.

 

but but but.....his boss "wants what we want and goes to the games for the same reason as we do, he wants us to win for the pleasure that brings."

 

 

[afar]

 

The reality is that Ashley wont sell unless someone is prepared to pay his asking price, and i can see no harm in 'Ashley Out' campaigning when its clear that there is someone on the horizon. If you say there will never be any forewarning or prior knowledge if a groupis interested in buying then that answers my question about the point of campaigning in the first place.

 

 

Forget campaigning as a way of forcing Ashley out. I agree it's very unlikely to work to that end. The situation is though that the club has seriously pissed off most supporters by its actions in the last week, and whether that be by negligence, by design or through no fault of his own, does not change that fact. I'm sure at this moment Ashley is regretting what has happened and if he could go back in time he'd do something to at least put off Keegan resigning (until he could undermine him a bit more ho ho).

 

However, if after such a sacred cow has been used and cast adrift, if after such an initial public outcry, there were now to be no protests, no boycoutts, no repercussions whatsoever, what message does that send to Ashley? If he can carry on through this as if nothing has happened, it tells him he can do whatever the f*** he likes with the club from now to the end of time and noone will bat an eyelid. Is that the "relationship" we want with the owner of the club?

 

Protest and affect the revenue of his other businesses now and it sends him a message so perhaps he'll at least think twice about crossing the supporters again. Do nothing, and expect an equal measure of respect to be given to our opinion in the future.

 

Excellent post UV. That's a great point.

[TRon]

 

The reality is that Ashley wont sell unless someone is prepared to pay his asking price, and i can see no harm in 'Ashley Out' campaigning when its clear that there is someone on the horizon. If you say there will never be any forewarning or prior knowledge if a groupis interested in buying then that answers my question about the point of campaigning in the first place.

 

 

Forget campaigning as a way of forcing Ashley out. I agree it's very unlikely to work to that end. The situation is though that the club has seriously pissed off most supporters by its actions in the last week, and whether that be by negligence, by design or through no fault of his own, does not change that fact. I'm sure at this moment Ashley is regretting what has happened and if he could go back in time he'd do something to at least put off Keegan resigning (until he could undermine him a bit more ho ho).

 

However, if after such a sacred cow has been used and cast adrift, if after such an initial public outcry, there were now to be no protests, no boycoutts, no repercussions whatsoever, what message does that send to Ashley? If he can carry on through this as if nothing has happened, it tells him he can do whatever the f*** he likes with the club from now to the end of time and noone will bat an eyelid. Is that the "relationship" we want with the owner of the club?

 

Protest and affect the revenue of his other businesses now and it sends him a message so perhaps he'll at least think twice about crossing the supporters again. Do nothing, and expect an equal measure of respect to be given to our opinion in the future.

 

Excellent post UV. That's a great point.

 

I doubt he is going to change his outline strategy because of the boycott. He won't like how it's turned out but I would imagine he believes in what he's doing.

[Mick]

 

Where did you hear what the letter contained?

 

The company I work for does a lot of corporate stuff from boxes to the sports bars and the director who deals with that phoned the club as usual to talk to the lass that looks after it and they were talking about Keegan.  She said told him about the letter which is supposed to have been getting talked about yesterday.

 

He's not known as a story teller so I believe him especially as he did nothing but call Keegan shite until yesterday afternoon when he totally changed his opinion.

[Baggio]

 

Where did you hear what the letter contained?

 

The company I work for does a lot of corporate stuff from boxes to the sports bars and the director who deals with that phoned the club as usual to talk to the lass that looks after it and they were talking about Keegan.  She said told him about the letter which is supposed to have been getting talked about yesterday.

 

He's not known as a story teller so I believe him especially as he did nothing but call Keegan shite until yesterday afternoon when he totally changed his opinion.

 

I doubt the people in hospitality know what was in a private letter between manager and chairman tbh.

[Thomson Mouse]

Loads of people noticed these "so- called embarrassing things". The dogs/Mary Poppins comment was front page news if I recall correctly.

 

Pretending for a moment that it matters, do you imagine for one second that Ashley could not very easily be caught in such a sting operation saying far, far worse things about the club, it's staff, and the supporters. There's no doubt in my mind that the tabloids will be hatching their schemes to catch him out as we type, and with the lack of tact he has shown in his few public interviews (I hate Spurs me, cave in Afghanistan) I can only imagine what he'll come out with when pissed in private. I'm expecting to see something within the year.

 

What in a brothel with possies? I'd be surprised if he was stupid enough to fall for that.

 

Strange that there seems to be the same 2/3 posters all over these threads that don't agree with the popularist view on the club. That's fair enough, but I would have to question their motives for it,  when they feel the need to do it on EVERY thread about this. Maybe pushing a bit too hard shows up the fact that they are doing it mainly to go against the grain instead of actually truly believe what they are saying.

 

[Mick]

 

but but but.....his boss "wants what we want and goes to the games for the same reason as we do, he wants us to win for the pleasure that brings."

 

 

 

[Mick]

 

I doubt the people in hospitality know what was in a private letter between manager and chairman tbh.

 

People talk, especially those who who have taken sides.  The same people who are talking to the press will be talking in the office.

[NE5]

 

but but but.....his boss "wants what we want and goes to the games for the same reason as we do, he wants us to win for the pleasure that brings."

 

 

 

 

haha, its your own phrase.

 

Are you happy at getting your wish too

[UV]

Loads of people noticed these "so- called embarrassing things". The dogs/Mary Poppins comment was front page news if I recall correctly.

 

Pretending for a moment that it matters, do you imagine for one second that Ashley could not very easily be caught in such a sting operation saying far, far worse things about the club, it's staff, and the supporters. There's no doubt in my mind that the tabloids will be hatching their schemes to catch him out as we type, and with the lack of tact he has shown in his few public interviews (I hate Spurs me, cave in Afghanistan) I can only imagine what he'll come out with when pissed in private. I'm expecting to see something within the year.

 

What in a brothel with possies? I'd be surprised if he was stupid enough to fall for that.

 

Strange that there seems to be the same 2/3 posters all over these threads that don't agree with the popularist view on the club. That's fair enough, but I would have to question their motives for it,  when they feel the need to do it on EVERY thread about this. Maybe pushing a bit too hard shows up the fact that they are doing it mainly to go against the grain instead of actually truly believe what they are saying.

 

 

If the popularist view is to place more importance to the kind of mild insults any of us might come out with in private than to finishing third and playing in the Champions League (you know, in the middle of the period where we "bent over and took it up the arse from the club"), then I'm happy to be labelled contrary.

[Mick]

 

haha, its your own phrase.

 

Are you happy at getting your wish too

 

I know most of it was my phrase, unlike you I know when I'm backing a loser.

[cp40]

are mick and Ne5, a married couple?

[midds]

are mick and Ne5, a married couple?

 

[Mick]

 

 

I don't know what you're laughing at, I almost threw up.

[midds]

 

 

I don't know what you're laughing at, I almost threw up.

 

Who's Matthau and who's Lemmon? 

[Mick]

 

Who's Matthau and who's Lemmon? 

 

I know which one is a lemon if that's any help.

[afar]

are mick and Ne5, a married couple?

 

I've often wondered that, their relationship does seem eerily familiar. One says black the other says white.

 

I don't want to speculate who's pitching and who's catching though