Fans to blame? F*ck off!

[themanupstairs]

There were too many fans who get sucked in by all of the promises and media speculation when ashley came in, so much so that they thought Newcastle would rapidly have the success of chelsea. When this success wasn't seen on the pitch, the board was an easy target. To have success there needs to be firm foundations and this is the reason why nufc hasn't seen success for many a year - too many comings and goings, too many minor scuffles blown out of proportion, too many massive promises that were never going to be fulfilled etc etc.

 

Obviously these problems aren't all down to the fans but too many place too much pressure and expect to see results straight off rather than in a couple of years. With ashley, there was no risk that the club was going to fold in on itself in the foreseeable duration, so patience was needed to see whether the new regimes and setups would die or flower. Unfortunately, after 50+ years of nothing (or so we keep being told), we are hungry for success and feel 'our time is now'. Things were never going to change over night but after the success chelsea saw in abranovich's first season, many thought 'well why hasn't it'.

 

Keegan's appointment helped to bide ashley with a good few months of time before the masses started to want more, time in which he could get the regimes ironed out and working. Personally I feel the summer transfer window was a success and much better than in recent years - true enough we didnt sign the likes of an owen or a martins, but we got in players that would add some excitment to what was always going to end up a small squad. Creating a bond with fans to ensure that they bought season tickets years in advance was also a positive step forward. It showed ashley that the fans were willing to give him time although some short term success would have been appreciated - maybe UEFA qualification this season. Obviously within the last few weeks/months there have been problems but these were always going to occur, no matter who was driving the ship. Having a fans favourite in keegan may have bought ashley some time but he was always get it in the neck when keegan walked/got the boot. Unfortunately within this short time, a large percentage of fans chose to ignore the positive steps forward in support for their messiah.

 

All in all, errors were made by everyone connected to the club and if it wasn't for a lack of patience and the hunger to be succesful like chelsea from the fans, in two years time we could have been a stronger force and climbing. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that the same fans will get sucked in by any new owner, fall for the same tricks, soon become impatient and be upon their backs come two seasons time. Its a viscous loop that will continue to rotate until this football club purchasing fad passes (maybe seeing the end of many clubs) or the fans give the club's owners a bit of slack to help build foundations.

 

  :clap: superbly put and thought out. no doubt you will be called deluded and an Ashley apologist, but let it not get to you my son!

[Cronky]

By way of clarification -

 

It seems to me that it's the sheer strength of the reaction that has driven Ashley out - ie the threat to create a 'bear pit' of an atmosphere at St James's and to boycott Sports Direct and the Club Shop. There was a clear determination to make life as unpleasant for Ashley as possible that wasn't just coming from a few morons, but was policy from groups like True Faith and The Mag.

 

Now you can look at all the issues of a DOF / Manager relationship and the personalities of Wise and Keegan, and so forth and take various standpoints. But particularly given Keegan's past record of walk-outs and his moaning after the Chelsea game, there has to be some doubts about whether his actions are justified and whether he is partly to blame. It's the 'Keegan is God' idea that has led to the extreme reaction that we've seen. If it was any other manager, far more people would be calling it 50-50 or at least toning down their actions.

[ChezGiven]

My explanation for the whole thing? Those who are abused as children end up as abusers.

[OzzieMandias]

My explanation for the whole thing? Those who are abused as children end up as abusers.

 

You'll have to unpack that one a bit.

[Tooj]

There were too many fans who get sucked in by all of the promises and media speculation when ashley came in, so much so that they thought Newcastle would rapidly have the success of chelsea. When this success wasn't seen on the pitch, the board was an easy target. To have success there needs to be firm foundations and this is the reason why nufc hasn't seen success for many a year - too many comings and goings, too many minor scuffles blown out of proportion, too many massive promises that were never going to be fulfilled etc etc.

 

Obviously these problems aren't all down to the fans but too many place too much pressure and expect to see results straight off rather than in a couple of years. With ashley, there was no risk that the club was going to fold in on itself in the foreseeable duration, so patience was needed to see whether the new regimes and setups would die or flower. Unfortunately, after 50+ years of nothing (or so we keep being told), we are hungry for success and feel 'our time is now'. Things were never going to change over night but after the success chelsea saw in abranovich's first season, many thought 'well why hasn't it'.

 

Keegan's appointment helped to bide ashley with a good few months of time before the masses started to want more, time in which he could get the regimes ironed out and working. Personally I feel the summer transfer window was a success and much better than in recent years - true enough we didnt sign the likes of an owen or a martins, but we got in players that would add some excitment to what was always going to end up a small squad. Creating a bond with fans to ensure that they bought season tickets years in advance was also a positive step forward. It showed ashley that the fans were willing to give him time although some short term success would have been appreciated - maybe UEFA qualification this season. Obviously within the last few weeks/months there have been problems but these were always going to occur, no matter who was driving the ship. Having a fans favourite in keegan may have bought ashley some time but he was always get it in the neck when keegan walked/got the boot. Unfortunately within this short time, a large percentage of fans chose to ignore the positive steps forward in support for their messiah.

 

All in all, errors were made by everyone connected to the club and if it wasn't for a lack of patience and the hunger to be succesful like chelsea from the fans, in two years time we could have been a stronger force and climbing. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that the same fans will get sucked in by any new owner, fall for the same tricks, soon become impatient and be upon their backs come two seasons time. Its a viscous loop that will continue to rotate until this football club purchasing fad passes (maybe seeing the end of many clubs) or the fans give the club's owners a bit of slack to help build foundations.

 

Don't agree with that mind. Especially the bit about us expecting instant success. Not at all.

[ChezGiven]

My explanation for the whole thing? Those who are abused as children end up as abusers.

 

You'll have to unpack that one a bit.

 

Just meant after all the disapppointments in recent years its like the fans have been abused enough and this reaction is as much a result of that 'abuse' as the current situation.

[jackyboy]

I spoke yesterday with a friend of mine who is the chairman of a premiership club.

 

His interpretation of what has transpired is interesting.  This man has had dealings with MA and describes him as someone, in my opinion,  not to be trusted. He sees KKs resignation as a courageous move. He believes that KK loves and feels for the club and the fans and that he felt strongly that the direction of the club under Ashleys leadership was not good.  He strongly believes that Keegan quit not through petulance as some have claimed but to expose Ashley and his plans.  He said that he thought that this was Keegans way of trying to save the club. He said that in view of KKs financial position, i.e in need of money, it was a really courageous move on his part.

With Ashleys Sports Direct empire suffering  the way it is could cause a knock on effect to NUFC.

 

[Guest Darth Toon]

I spoke yesterday with a friend of mine who is the chairman of a premiership club.

 

His interpretation of what has transpired is interesting.  This man has had dealings with MA and describes him as someone, in my opinion,  not to be trusted. He sees KKs resignation as a courageous move. He believes that KK loves and feels for the club and the fans and that he felt strongly that the direction of the club under Ashleys leadership was not good.  He strongly believes that Keegan quit not through petulance as some have claimed but to expose Ashley and his plans.  He said that he thought that this was Keegans way of trying to save the club. He said that in view of KKs financial position, i.e in need of money, it was a really courageous move on his part.

With Ashleys Sports Direct empire suffering  the way it is could cause a knock on effect to NUFC.

 

 

That sounds far more plausible than a lot of the other theories we've heard.

 

If this does turn out to be true, and KK's walkout leads to us being taken over by a wealthy individual/group who inject money and lead us to sustainable long term success, the 3rd coming could yet turn out to represent the most enduring part of Keegan's toon legacy.

[themanupstairs]

I spoke yesterday with a friend of mine who is the chairman of a premiership club.

 

His interpretation of what has transpired is interesting.  This man has had dealings with MA and describes him as someone, in my opinion,  not to be trusted. He sees KKs resignation as a courageous move. He believes that KK loves and feels for the club and the fans and that he felt strongly that the direction of the club under Ashleys leadership was not good.  He strongly believes that Keegan quit not through petulance as some have claimed but to expose Ashley and his plans.  He said that he thought that this was Keegans way of trying to save the club. He said that in view of KKs financial position, i.e in need of money, it was a really courageous move on his part.

With Ashleys Sports Direct empire suffering  the way it is could cause a knock on effect to NUFC.

 

 

That sounds far more plausible than a lot of the other theories we've heard.

 

If this does turn out to be true, and KK's walkout leads to us being taken over by a wealthy individual/group who inject money and lead us to sustainable long term success, the 3rd coming could yet turn out to represent the most enduring part of Keegan's toon legacy.

 

Tell you what, if this turns out to be true, I'll even change my tune about Keegan, and will ultimately agree with you (and HTT) 100%.

 

Having said that, why do you think it's the most plausible explanation?

[BottledDog]

I spoke yesterday with a friend of mine who is the chairman of a premiership club.

 

His interpretation of what has transpired is interesting.  This man has had dealings with MA and describes him as someone, in my opinion,  not to be trusted. He sees KKs resignation as a courageous move. He believes that KK loves and feels for the club and the fans and that he felt strongly that the direction of the club under Ashleys leadership was not good.  He strongly believes that Keegan quit not through petulance as some have claimed but to expose Ashley and his plans.  He said that he thought that this was Keegans way of trying to save the club. He said that in view of KKs financial position, i.e in need of money, it was a really courageous move on his part.

With Ashleys Sports Direct empire suffering  the way it is could cause a knock on effect to NUFC.

 

 

That sounds far more plausible than a lot of the other theories we've heard.

 

If this does turn out to be true, and KK's walkout leads to us being taken over by a wealthy individual/group who inject money and lead us to sustainable long term success, the 3rd coming could yet turn out to represent the most enduring part of Keegan's toon legacy.

 

Saving the club from what though, what on earth was Ashley doing? It may not have gone to plan, but all I saw was at least an effort to see all the elements being put in place for long term stability and future growth within our means.

 

I'm happy to be proved wrong though. If as Jackyboy has said, he was walking out to expose Ashley's plan, to save the club, then what the hell is he waiting for, expose the evil!

 

All he has currently exposed us to is more uncertainty, and the gamble that someone a damn sight worse might replace him.

[magorific]

 

Of course NUFC fans are f***ing delusional, they still have no f***ing idea how much damage they've done to this club.

 

 

IF Ashley cannot sell NUFC  and the club goes down, you will be proved right especially about damaging the club.

 

On the other hand, any new owners will know that they cant take NUFC over  and f*** about with the fans and take them for granted like Mike Ashley and his mates did.

This could and should  ultimately result  in us getting a more stable club that is ran in a far more professional manner than what it ever was under  Mike Ashleys "team" of non communicators. 

 

 

 

 

Nufc fans will only take to an owner who's gonna lavish them with transfer funds - they're too impatient to see a long term policy and system take shape especially at the expense of a statistically mediocre manager. How many Abramovich's are there out there? Theres something like 2000 billlionaires out there, how many do you think would be keen to blow there money on nufc? A club which now has a history of forcing out the previous incumbents, maybe even 2 of them.

 

How many of these billoinaires at a guess do you think would be keen to own a club where the fans are more powerful than the man with the purse strings?

 

Im still unsure how you've come to the conclusion that he's taken the fans for granted.

 

As for your final dig - the club spends its entire tenure keeping a privacy shield away from the media and with that also the fans and the club is congratulated for keeping out the poisonous press, but the fans couldnt wait 2 weeks to see how things transpired before the club made a statement and is lambasted for the lack of communication.....damned if you do, damned if you dont.

 

You really couldnt make it up.

 

Rubbish, frankly.

Was there any sign or sound of fans' revolt in the air in the last few weeks of last season? The majority were happy we seemed to be making slow but steady progress under Keegan, with the promise of the squad being significantly - but NOT spectacularly - in the summer.

It wasn't. KK felt betrayed. So do the fans.

 

Why would we look to revolt at the end of last season? If you're trying to say that nufc fans would be happy with an owner who has a long term plan for the club with slow steady progress, then what was wrong with Ashley's plan?

 

Putting aside the still unknown circumstances of Keegans departures, what problems did you see with a club who looked to invest in younger players from around the whole of europe and not just the big clubs of the major leagues, looking to develop them and making them stars for the club?

 

I am more than happy to admit i was very dissapointed with the lack of acitvity surrounding this club - however with a club that was rowing in seperate directions i can see, but not understand why we had so little activity.

 

EDIT: The sad fact of this case is that the fans are using the lack of numbers as another stick to beat Ashley with (which they are well within there rights) but are conviniently forgetting that the clubs squad has dramatically improved.  Which was more important out the 2?

 

Put it simply, would you rather have a good sized squad with similar quality to last year or would you rather have a similar sizeds squad which was better than last year?

 

I know which is more important - you have to ask yourself if you do and if you do you'll understand where you arguments fall down.

 

Only just logged back on now, so apologies for late reply.

Of course there is nothing wrong with a plan to curb over-spending on trophy signings and search for talented youngsters worldwide.

But Ashley pursued that plan with men totally ill equipped to follow Arsenal's lead. Dennis f*****g Wise and an ex Chelsea steward ffs.

Had he put a Frank Arneson type in to do the job of finding talent, we'd have found some worth having, Keegan would still be here and the fans would be saying nowt. As it is, Ashley's stuck by men who have unearthed precious little in the way of decent young talent (Kadar aside, perhaps) and made one undeniably good senior signing (Gutierrez), while ignoring blatant shortcomings (lack of full-backs, creative midfielders) in a squad that you, bizarrely, claim has been "dramatically" strengthened.

That's not to mention that Ashley himself was promising corporate fans a "wow" signing before the close of the transfer window.....

 

[fredbob]

 

Of course NUFC fans are f***ing delusional, they still have no f***ing idea how much damage they've done to this club.

 

 

IF Ashley cannot sell NUFC  and the club goes down, you will be proved right especially about damaging the club.

 

On the other hand, any new owners will know that they cant take NUFC over  and f*** about with the fans and take them for granted like Mike Ashley and his mates did.

This could and should  ultimately result  in us getting a more stable club that is ran in a far more professional manner than what it ever was under  Mike Ashleys "team" of non communicators. 

 

 

 

 

Nufc fans will only take to an owner who's gonna lavish them with transfer funds - they're too impatient to see a long term policy and system take shape especially at the expense of a statistically mediocre manager. How many Abramovich's are there out there? Theres something like 2000 billlionaires out there, how many do you think would be keen to blow there money on nufc? A club which now has a history of forcing out the previous incumbents, maybe even 2 of them.

 

How many of these billoinaires at a guess do you think would be keen to own a club where the fans are more powerful than the man with the purse strings?

 

Im still unsure how you've come to the conclusion that he's taken the fans for granted.

 

As for your final dig - the club spends its entire tenure keeping a privacy shield away from the media and with that also the fans and the club is congratulated for keeping out the poisonous press, but the fans couldnt wait 2 weeks to see how things transpired before the club made a statement and is lambasted for the lack of communication.....damned if you do, damned if you dont.

 

You really couldnt make it up.

 

Rubbish, frankly.

Was there any sign or sound of fans' revolt in the air in the last few weeks of last season? The majority were happy we seemed to be making slow but steady progress under Keegan, with the promise of the squad being significantly - but NOT spectacularly - in the summer.

It wasn't. KK felt betrayed. So do the fans.

 

Why would we look to revolt at the end of last season? If you're trying to say that nufc fans would be happy with an owner who has a long term plan for the club with slow steady progress, then what was wrong with Ashley's plan?

 

Putting aside the still unknown circumstances of Keegans departures, what problems did you see with a club who looked to invest in younger players from around the whole of europe and not just the big clubs of the major leagues, looking to develop them and making them stars for the club?

 

I am more than happy to admit i was very dissapointed with the lack of acitvity surrounding this club - however with a club that was rowing in seperate directions i can see, but not understand why we had so little activity.

 

EDIT: The sad fact of this case is that the fans are using the lack of numbers as another stick to beat Ashley with (which they are well within there rights) but are conviniently forgetting that the clubs squad has dramatically improved.  Which was more important out the 2?

 

Put it simply, would you rather have a good sized squad with similar quality to last year or would you rather have a similar sizeds squad which was better than last year?

 

I know which is more important - you have to ask yourself if you do and if you do you'll understand where you arguments fall down.

 

Only just logged back on now, so apologies for late reply.

Of course there is nothing wrong with a plan to curb over-spending on trophy signings and search for talented youngsters worldwide.

But Ashley pursued that plan with men totally ill equipped to follow Arsenal's lead. Dennis f*****g Wise and an ex Chelsea steward ffs.

Had he put a Frank Arneson type in to do the job of finding talent, we'd have found some worth having, Keegan would still be here and the fans would be saying nowt. As it is, Ashley's stuck by men who have unearthed precious little in the way of decent young talent (Kadar aside, perhaps) and made one undeniably good senior signing (Gutierrez), while ignoring blatant shortcomings (lack of full-backs, creative midfielders) in a squad that you, bizarrely, claim has been "dramatically" strengthened.

That's not to mention that Ashley himself was promising corporate fans a "wow" signing before the close of the transfer window.....

 

 

Hold on - so you dont think the squad has improved dramatically? By getting rid of a few personnel the squad improved - by adding 6 players of which at least 4 look to be good quality in my book is quite a dramatic improvment especially since we havent had a transfer window equal to this since the days of SBR (in terms of quality).

 

How you can therefore castigate a transfer team based on that strength of evidence, to the extent you think they should leave the club, ill never know. Think about it.

 

Yes, they did make mistakes and they did not address certain positions, that we know of (remeber Keegan was very optimistic after the Milner sale saying 3-4 players were in the pipeline - who's to say the positions were being addressed but didnt come off?), but they did the number one thing that needed doing and they improved the quality of the squad. You also have to rememeber that Keegan seemed to buckle on the last day of the season and was unhappy with having either Xisco or Nacho hoisted onto him, there was no suggestion that he was unhappy with the lack of personnel at certain positions, making me believe that you are looking for another stick to beat Ashley with.

 

The bottom line is that we finally seem to have a system which did seem to be paying dividends in its first season together but we still value the whims of a statisitcally mediocre manager over the direction of the club and that for me is unbelievable.

[Tooj]

fredbob are you saying we weren't improving under Keegan? To myself we looked like making the most progression on the pitch in around four years. For all of your systems behind the scenes, it's no good not having someone who can manage the players.

 

I like how you threw the stats argument in there though. That was very clever of you.

[fredbob]

fredbob are you saying we weren't improving under Keegan? To myself we looked like making the most progression on the pitch in around four years. For all of your systems behind the scenes, it's no good not having someone who can manage the players.

 

I like how you threw the stats argument in there though. That was very clever of you.

 

Oh aye, dont get me wrong i was happy with what keegan was doing - in fact supremeley happy with that way the club was going upto the end of the transfer window- thats not to say that had the window shut under normal circumstance i wouldnt of been lambasting the board for the lack of depth in the squad, becasue i would of.

 

My point is that there seems to be a huge majority of fans who have been thinking with their hearts and not with there heads - they've prioritised the wrong thing in my opinion. As you say, it's no good having the sytems if you dont have someone who can manage the players - well it turns out that Keegan couldnt manage the players becasue he couldnt fit into the system so he leaves. Thats the simple equation.

 

We should of voiced our concerns, voiced our unhappiness at a good start being wasted and politics undermining the fans and the club but thats as far as it shouldof gone, forcing the owner out seems like such a disproportionate reaction. Losing keegan wouldnt of been the end of the world for this club.

 

the stats is a very relevant point to be fair - he is a mediocre manager, he doesnt havent a record which is that much better than the likes of Curbishly, Allardyce, Veneable even Mclaren has more solid achievemnts than him. The point is that his major managerial achievment was over 15 years ago and the fans have put that sentimentality above the sytem that Ashley and co have tried to input, and for the life of me i cant see why, hence my belief that the fans are thinking with there hearts not their heads.

 

football is a passionate game- but when it comes to deciding the future of your entire club - what your heart says should be a million miles away from what you should actually be doing.

[magorific]

fredbob are you saying we weren't improving under Keegan? To myself we looked like making the most progression on the pitch in around four years. For all of your systems behind the scenes, it's no good not having someone who can manage the players.

 

I like how you threw the stats argument in there though. That was very clever of you.

 

Oh aye, dont get me wrong i was happy with what keegan was doing - in fact supremeley happy with that way the club was going upto the end of the transfer window- thats not to say that had the window shut under normal circumstance i wouldnt of been lambasting the board for the lack of depth in the squad, becasue i would of.

 

My point is that there seems to be a huge majority of fans who have been thinking with their hearts and not with there heads - they've prioritised the wrong thing in my opinion. As you say, it's no good having the sytems if you dont have someone who can manage the players - well it turns out that Keegan couldnt manage the players becasue he couldnt fit into the system so he leaves. Thats the simple equation.

 

We should of voiced our concerns, voiced our unhappiness at a good start being wasted and politics undermining the fans and the club but thats as far as it shouldof gone, forcing the owner out seems like such a disproportionate reaction. Losing keegan wouldnt of been the end of the world for this club.

 

the stats is a very relevant point to be fair - he is a mediocre manager, he doesnt havent a record which is that much better than the likes of Curbishly, Allardyce, Veneable even Mclaren has more solid achievemnts than him. The point is that his major managerial achievment was over 15 years ago and the fans have put that sentimentality above the sytem that Ashley and co have tried to input, and for the life of me i cant see why, hence my belief that the fans are thinking with there hearts not their heads.

 

football is a passionate game- but when it comes to deciding the future of your entire club - what your heart says should be a million miles away from what you should actually be doing.

 

Why is wanting to get rid of an owner who said NOTHING, and authorised his club to say NOTHING for so long after KK disappeared so wrong?

Had Ashley explained himself, I've no doubt the protests would have been seriously diluted.

That isn't my heart talking, it's my head. The FACTS are also that he and his chosen people failed to address several basic necessities in the summer transfer market.

As for your stats argument, it falls down - in my view- when you start suggesting his record is no better than that of a manager like McClaren (how does winning the League Cup compare with turning Newcastle from certainties for the old Div 3 into marginally the second best team in the country?).

To finish, a question for you: who should have stayed at Newcastle after the end of the transfer window: Keegan or Wise?

 

[Guest bertiemasson]

Canny old this like - happy with the supporters group - they seem to have the right idea by presenting a fair, common and united front.

 

We should all stop biting at the media and daft twats thats why they print the stuff

 

KTF

[fredbob]

Why is wanting to get rid of an owner who said NOTHING, and authorised his club to say NOTHING for so long after KK disappeared so wrong?

Had Ashley explained himself, I've no doubt the protests would have been seriously diluted.

That isn't my heart talking, it's my head. The FACTS are also that he and his chosen people failed to address several basic necessities in the summer transfer market.

As for your stats argument, it falls down - in my view- when you start suggesting his record is no better than that of a manager like McClaren (how does winning the League Cup compare with turning Newcastle from certainties for the old Div 3 into marginally the second best team in the country?).

To finish, a question for you: who should have stayed at Newcastle after the end of the transfer window: Keegan or Wise?

 

 

When you say "so long" you actually mean 10 days (?), right? Were you one of non exisiting people who have alway hated the clubs secrecy and hated that the media knew 'nothing'? If so, then i suppose 10 days IS a long time, then again, for me i was happy to wait - especially as we dont know the nature of the meeting that Ahley had with keegan and especially as how Ashley was on 'business' at the time. Still doesnt equate to forcing him out, especially after having put in so much of his personal welath into the club, bringing back a hugely popular figure, regenerating the youth system and improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues.

 

He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place.

 

As for your diluted protests - who's to say? Moot point really.

 

Ok, so Mclaren was one of 4 manager i mentioned - although strictly speaking silverware will always been on your permanent record of achievments, not " got a team from second division to near the top of the premier league - with a fair bit of cash". Pedantic i know, but unfortunately true. The bottom line is that he IS part of a group of mediocre managers, any defence of him is defence based purely on personal feelings for the man, becasue someone with equal record at antoerh club wouldnt get a second hearing here, and that isnt subjectivity.

 

As for your final question - it depends on what side you view the argument - if you genuinely believe that Wise hasbeen indermining Keegan from the start and Keegan actually had NO say on the signings then it would be Wise who should of left - and Keegan should of left when he was first undermined as his principles are so strong.

 

But if you view the argument as Keegans targets not fitting into the policy of the club and possibly dragging his heels over the situation forcing Wise to sign players over his head without his authoriy then maybe Keegan was right to leave. As you can see, in both scenarios Keegan doesnt come of favourably so i'd say that for the best interests of the club Keegan should definitely of left and replaced with a manager who could defintiely work within a team structure. There is also a case for Wise becoming an antagonist and him therefore leaving as well.

[magorific]

Why is wanting to get rid of an owner who said NOTHING, and authorised his club to say NOTHING for so long after KK disappeared so wrong?

Had Ashley explained himself, I've no doubt the protests would have been seriously diluted.

That isn't my heart talking, it's my head. The FACTS are also that he and his chosen people failed to address several basic necessities in the summer transfer market.

As for your stats argument, it falls down - in my view- when you start suggesting his record is no better than that of a manager like McClaren (how does winning the League Cup compare with turning Newcastle from certainties for the old Div 3 into marginally the second best team in the country?).

To finish, a question for you: who should have stayed at Newcastle after the end of the transfer window: Keegan or Wise?

 

 

When you say "so long" you actually mean 10 days (?), right? Were you one of non exisiting people who have alway hated the clubs secrecy and hated that the media knew 'nothing'? If so, then i suppose 10 days IS a long time, then again, for me i was happy to wait - especially as we dont know the nature of the meeting that Ahley had with keegan and especially as how Ashley was on 'business' at the time. Still doesnt equate to forcing him out, especially after having put in so much of his personal welath into the club, bringing back a hugely popular figure, regenerating the youth system and improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues.

 

He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place.

 

As for your diluted protests - who's to say? Moot point really.

 

Ok, so Mclaren was one of 4 manager i mentioned - although strictly speaking silverware will always been on your permanent record of achievments, not " got a team from second division to near the top of the premier league - with a fair bit of cash". Pedantic i know, but unfortunately true. The bottom line is that he IS part of a group of mediocre managers, any defence of him is defence based purely on personal feelings for the man, becasue someone with equal record at antoerh club wouldnt get a second hearing here, and that isnt subjectivity.

 

As for your final question - it depends on what side you view the argument - if you genuinely believe that Wise hasbeen indermining Keegan from the start and Keegan actually had NO say on the signings then it would be Wise who should of left - and Keegan should of left when he was first undermined as his principles are so strong.

 

But if you view the argument as Keegans targets not fitting into the policy of the club and possibly dragging his heels over the situation forcing Wise to sign players over his head without his authoriy then maybe Keegan was right to leave. As you can see, in both scenarios Keegan doesnt come of favourably so i'd say that for the best interests of the club Keegan should definitely of left and replaced with a manager who could defintiely work within a team structure. There is also a case for Wise becoming an antagonist and him therefore leaving as well.

 

He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place  . . ." WTF?

 

You condemn Keegan unreservedly for NOT accepting Wise's input, then conclude by saying Wise could be an "antagonist" and should go as well. WTF?

 

You say the point about diluted protests is "moot", yet the basis of your original argument was that the strength of those very same protests proved NUFC fans are not patient enough. WTF?

 

"improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues . . ." WTF??? We are playing David f***ing Edgar at right-back ffs......................

 

 

 

 

[Guest Lee-T]

I would say our fans are the third shittiest in the Premier League.

[magorific]

I would say our fans are the third shittiest in the Premier League.

 

WUM?

 

 

[fredbob]

Why is wanting to get rid of an owner who said NOTHING, and authorised his club to say NOTHING for so long after KK disappeared so wrong?

Had Ashley explained himself, I've no doubt the protests would have been seriously diluted.

That isn't my heart talking, it's my head. The FACTS are also that he and his chosen people failed to address several basic necessities in the summer transfer market.

As for your stats argument, it falls down - in my view- when you start suggesting his record is no better than that of a manager like McClaren (how does winning the League Cup compare with turning Newcastle from certainties for the old Div 3 into marginally the second best team in the country?).

To finish, a question for you: who should have stayed at Newcastle after the end of the transfer window: Keegan or Wise?

 

 

When you say "so long" you actually mean 10 days (?), right? Were you one of non exisiting people who have alway hated the clubs secrecy and hated that the media knew 'nothing'? If so, then i suppose 10 days IS a long time, then again, for me i was happy to wait - especially as we dont know the nature of the meeting that Ahley had with keegan and especially as how Ashley was on 'business' at the time. Still doesnt equate to forcing him out, especially after having put in so much of his personal welath into the club, bringing back a hugely popular figure, regenerating the youth system and improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues.

 

He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place.

 

As for your diluted protests - who's to say? Moot point really.

 

Ok, so Mclaren was one of 4 manager i mentioned - although strictly speaking silverware will always been on your permanent record of achievments, not " got a team from second division to near the top of the premier league - with a fair bit of cash". Pedantic i know, but unfortunately true. The bottom line is that he IS part of a group of mediocre managers, any defence of him is defence based purely on personal feelings for the man, becasue someone with equal record at antoerh club wouldnt get a second hearing here, and that isnt subjectivity.

 

As for your final question - it depends on what side you view the argument - if you genuinely believe that Wise hasbeen indermining Keegan from the start and Keegan actually had NO say on the signings then it would be Wise who should of left - and Keegan should of left when he was first undermined as his principles are so strong.

 

But if you view the argument as Keegans targets not fitting into the policy of the club and possibly dragging his heels over the situation forcing Wise to sign players over his head without his authoriy then maybe Keegan was right to leave. As you can see, in both scenarios Keegan doesnt come of favourably so i'd say that for the best interests of the club Keegan should definitely of left and replaced with a manager who could defintiely work within a team structure. There is also a case for Wise becoming an antagonist and him therefore leaving as well.

 

He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place  . . ." WTF?

 

You condemn Keegan unreservedly for NOT accepting Wise's input, then conclude by saying Wise could be an "antagonist" and should go as well. WTF?

 

You say the point about diluted protests is "moot", yet the basis of your original argument was that the strength of those very same protests proved NUFC fans are not patient enough. WTF?

 

"improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues . . ." WTF??? We are playing David f***ing Edgar at right-back ffs......................

 

 

 

 

 

He hasnt even been given ONE chance to rectify his one major mistake - which was employing Keegan in the first place  . . ." WTF?

 

Im struggling to see what you find so difficult to understand with this. Keegan didnt fit in with the system, he was unable to work within a team structure and therefore was the wrong man for the job. Ashley has to take the blame for this, and as of yet he hasn't (and wont) be given the chance to rectify this mistake and employ a manager who would fit in and potentially make the sytem work.

 

You condemn Keegan unreservedly for NOT accepting Wise's input, then conclude by saying Wise could be an "antagonist" and should go as well. WTF?

 

The 2 paragraphs i gave were 2 scenarios that are being genrally accpeted by both sets of fans with differeing views, the line about Wise being an antagonist should of been put with the first scenaroi. Poor Enlgish, my mistake. Either way you;ve not exactly responded to my point just tried to point out a possible contradiction.

 

You say the point about diluted protests is "moot", yet the basis of your original argument was that the strength of those very same protests proved NUFC fans are not patient enough. WTF?

 

Im saying the point about diluted protests is moot becasue the protests have already taken place. The subsequent wheels have been set into motion and therefore the damage has been done. To suggest that "if he'd released a statement (a few days  ) earlier would of resulted in less voiceferous protests" is nothing more than conjecture and something you couldnt prove at all.

 

I mean, are you actually intimiating that 50k+ people who have protested agaisnt the club and threatend the owner and possilby his family with physical violence with actually no stone cold hard facts have the rationale to tone down there protests if only the owner had spoken (a few days  ) earlier? Thats a claim and a half that is. Think that one through.

 

"improving our scouting sytem beyond the realms of the major clubs in the major leagues . . ." WTF??? We are playing David f***ing Edgar at right-back ffs......................

 

What has David edgar playinga RB got to do with the improvement of the scouting system? I never said it was flawless. All im saying is that its definitely been improved.

 

All ive noticed is that you dont try to prove your points - you try to counter mine which is a sign of a weaker argument.

 

Just an observation.

[afar]

I would say our fans are the third shittiest in the Premier League.

 

And your team is ?

[NJS]

the stats is a very relevant point to be fair - he is a mediocre manager, he doesnt havent a record which is that much better than the likes of Curbishly, Allardyce, Veneable even Mclaren has more solid achievemnts than him.

 

Can you quote the seasons when any of those got within a million miles (or 4 points) of winning the title?

 

Thanks.

 

 

[fredbob]

the stats is a very relevant point to be fair - he is a mediocre manager, he doesnt havent a record which is that much better than the likes of Curbishly, Allardyce, Veneable even Mclaren has more solid achievemnts than him.

 

Can you quote the seasons when any of those got within a million miles (or 4 points) of winning the title?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

I like the way you specify the number of points we were from winning. Goes to show how threadbare your argument actually is.

[UV]

fredbob there's just on thing I don't quite understand. Now that "the squad has improved dramatically" and we have relieved ourselves of a "mediocre manager" who was obviously holding us back, why do we keep losing abjectly to poor teams? Is this still part of the "long term plan for the club with slow steady progress"? Am I just missing some subtle part of the plan here?