Is subbing Martins causing these late reversals?

[Mick]

 

spot on opinion,

 

the only thing still with martins is he has time on his side

 

That depends on who you listen to and which age is right.

[Parky]

Oba is destined to spend some of his time looking a world beater and a bit more of his time looking like a carpet beater.

 

Its not his fault he's dumb, its unfortunate the managers and coaches at NUFC have not brought him forward though in his development.

 

I just cant envisage him ever scoring bags of goals in the Premier League. 

 

If only he had a deeper voice.

[Parky]

Oba is destined to spend some of his time looking a world beater and a bit more of his time looking like a carpet beater.

 

Its not his fault he's dumb, its unfortunate the managers and coaches at NUFC have not brought him forward though in his development.

 

I just cant envisage him ever scoring bags of goals in the Premier League. 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the coaching tbh. You'd have thought that in 5-6 years at Inter & Newcastle, if he was going to learn when and where to make his runs, control a ball, pass a ball, etc. he'd have done it by now. If it was a few tweaks here and there that he needed, then fair enough, but it's skills that you should have sewn up when you're 17-18 that Martins lacks in.

 

You try controlling a ball with thigh muscles like that.

[Guest BooBoo]

Oba is destined to spend some of his time looking a world beater and a bit more of his time looking like a carpet beater.

 

Its not his fault he's dumb, its unfortunate the managers and coaches at NUFC have not brought him forward though in his development.

 

I just cant envisage him ever scoring bags of goals in the Premier League. 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the coaching tbh. You'd have thought that in 5-6 years at Inter & Newcastle, if he was going to learn when and where to make his runs, control a ball, pass a ball, etc. he'd have done it by now. If it was a few tweaks here and there that he needed, then fair enough, but it's skills that you should have sewn up when you're 17-18 that Martins lacks in.

 

You're probably right.

 

He's a funny one. Sometimes i think he virtually wins games on his own for us (Villa h) and then at times some grotesque alter ego (Awfulfemi Martins perhaps?) turns up in his place (Mackems a).

[Guest]

Oba is destined to spend some of his time looking a world beater and a bit more of his time looking like a carpet beater.

 

Its not his fault he's dumb, its unfortunate the managers and coaches at NUFC have not brought him forward though in his development.

 

I just cant envisage him ever scoring bags of goals in the Premier League. 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the coaching tbh. You'd have thought that in 5-6 years at Inter & Newcastle, if he was going to learn when and where to make his runs, control a ball, pass a ball, etc. he'd have done it by now. If it was a few tweaks here and there that he needed, then fair enough, but it's skills that you should have sewn up when you're 17-18 that Martins lacks in.

 

You try controlling a ball with thigh muscles like that.

 

Sarcasm surely.

[Parky]

Oba is destined to spend some of his time looking a world beater and a bit more of his time looking like a carpet beater.

 

Its not his fault he's dumb, its unfortunate the managers and coaches at NUFC have not brought him forward though in his development.

 

I just cant envisage him ever scoring bags of goals in the Premier League. 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the coaching tbh. You'd have thought that in 5-6 years at Inter & Newcastle, if he was going to learn when and where to make his runs, control a ball, pass a ball, etc. he'd have done it by now. If it was a few tweaks here and there that he needed, then fair enough, but it's skills that you should have sewn up when you're 17-18 that Martins lacks in.

 

You try controlling a ball with thigh muscles like that.

 

Sarcasm surely.

 

[Guest rebel_yell12]

Does anyone else wish they could see the actual numbers for the players' fitness tests?  I'd love to see the evidence of Owen's apparently recent lack of pace.  Or rather, the lack of such evidence.  It's not recent.  Owen's "explosive" pace, like we saw when he was 18/19, went the way of the do-do around 2002.  Liverpool fans knew this.  He has since scored a further 50+ goals for LFC, had the best goals-to-minutes ratio in La Liga, is better than 1 in 2 for Newcastle, and has scored another 25 or so goals for England since that happened. 

 

I remember reading from...I think Allardyce(?) that Owen's running numbers (ie his pace) were the same as pre-knee injury.  Personally, I think it's more that defences have changed and Owen has changed from a pacy teenager, thus Owen's old tactics don't work and he's had to adjust.

 

I still think it's f***ing sad that the fans and the players can all see a return to the 4-3-3 would be something to try, but JFK doesn't seem to see it.  Or is unwilling to try it.    Martins' attributes and Owen's attributes can be very complementary, if utilised properly.  Martins basically takes them head on and sees if he can win (out-pace them) whereas Owen does more sneaking about.  I think together, with a decent midfield and/or another big striker to be the fulcrum, they can terrorise bottom-half defences (like Spurs, last season) and even give a good account of themselves against the more top-drawer clubs.

[Guest Stephen927]

Said it for a while, that Martins could learn a thing or two from Michael Owen in the way of hanging off the last man and beating offside traps.

 

It's not a particularly easy thing to learn mind.

[Parky]

Does anyone else wish they could see the actual numbers for the players' fitness tests?  I'd love to see the evidence of Owen's apparently recent lack of pace.  Or rather, the lack of such evidence.  It's not recent.  Owen's "explosive" pace, like we saw when he was 18/19, went the way of the do-do around 2002.  Liverpool fans knew this.  He has since scored a further 50+ goals for LFC, had the best goals-to-minutes ratio in La Liga, is better than 1 in 2 for Newcastle, and has scored another 25 or so goals for England since that happened. 

 

I remember reading from...I think Allardyce(?) that Owen's running numbers (ie his pace) were the same as pre-knee injury.  Personally, I think it's more that defences have changed and Owen has changed from a pacy teenager, thus Owen's old tactics don't work and he's had to adjust.

 

I still think it's f***ing sad that the fans and the players can all see a return to the 4-3-3 would be something to try, but JFK doesn't seem to see it.  Or is unwilling to try it.    Martins' attributes and Owen's attributes can be very complementary, if utilised properly.  Martins basically takes them head on and sees if he can win (out-pace them) whereas Owen does more sneaking about.  I think together, with a decent midfield and/or another big striker to be the fulcrum, they can terrorise bottom-half defences (like Spurs, last season) and even give a good account of themselves against the more top-drawer clubs.

 

 

Cracking post ringo.

[Parky]

Said it for a while, that Martins could learn a thing or two from Michael Owen in the way of hanging off the last man and beating offside traps.

 

It's not a particularly easy thing to learn mind.

 

 

I think you're born with that.

 

You see on the other side of the coin what Martins lacks in savvy he makes up for in shear madness and willingness.

[Guest Stephen927]

Said it for a while, that Martins could learn a thing or two from Michael Owen in the way of hanging off the last man and beating offside traps.

 

It's not a particularly easy thing to learn mind.

 

 

I think you're born with that.

 

You see on the other side of the coin what Martins lacks in savvy he makes up for in shear madness and willingness.

 

Yeah it's mostly natural ability but with Martins pace, if he doesn't get it perfect he has that yard on most defenders to make up for it.

 

Saying that, if he was to get it spot on and be through on goal, his first touch would probably let him down.

[The Prophet]

You heard me.

 

Na, my post with the stats on pretty much confirms what I thought. The subbing of Martins isn't cuasing a late reversals but a general lack of pace, attacking threat and ruthlessness is.

 

I think you can look at previous squads, hold your hands up and say the back line was piss poor. Yet you look at this one and the fact they can comfortably keep a clean sheet gives you a bit of hope yet like the defence of old they still ship late goals. Now I think unless you have a top four defence with your Ferdinands and Terrys, etc, sitting back and trying to defend any form of lead is a dangerous game, particularly with the nature of our league.

 

So to answer your original post, no.  There's no doubt that subbing Martins doesn't help in the slightest and sometimes contributes to the problem but it isn't the sole cause. The reason we squandered the lead against Stoke is because we insisted on trying to hold back and attempt to protect it. Even if we had Owen and Viduka up front and we continued to push forward I feel we would of comfortably beaten them.

 

Also, if you also take note of some of the other results: Martins was on the field against Wigan, while we were down to ten men against City, circumstance hasn't always helped this season but as I say neither have our tactics.

 

The stats don't say anything because we're talking about a certain situation, one where we're desperately trying to hang onto a lead and the best way to do that is not allow the opposition backline to move up onto the halfway line. You're right in that of course it's not the only reason but it's a major factor. It's not simply a case of who scores at certain times and after coming on or whatever - in the last ten minutes when you desperately need a goal, there aren't many players I'd rather have than Michael Owen (see Wigan) but that is not the case here. Why is he leaving a specialist poacher on when he clearly has no interest in scoring another goal?

 

Just looking at stats and goals doesn't tell you anything about how much fear Martins' presence alone puts into a defence (especially one like Stoke's - hardly blessed with pace) and stops them playing a high line, no matter how he's performing on the day. Kinnear shouldn't be trying to defend these leads at all but in taking Martins off, he's shooting himself in the foot because it makes it harder to defend such a lead.

 

He'd gone off when Man City equalised btw.

 

Aye, I know I was referring to the Wigan game.

 

I largely agree with your post but I don't think the subbing of Martins in particular could be classed as shooting yourself in the foot. If you take Martins off and replace him with Viduka you’re causing the opposition a problem. They'll push up and his hold play will bring Owen into play. Now with Owen's pace and intelligent movement I still expect us to be a danger on the attack. Similarly had Kinnear brought on Martins for a defender and we had switched a 4-3-3, pushing N'Zogbia and Jonas up front with Owen we would have still caused problem because with the pace of three of them we would still provide an attacking threat up front.

 

Now when you are causing yourself a problem is when you bring Martins off for a defender and you sit deep. If we're talking about the Stoke game, they get their success from pushing other sides back line further and further back until they're sitting on the keeper. And that's what we did, we plaid into their hands.

 

So what am I trying to say? Well, making a negative substitution does not cause a later reversal as long as you compensate for it by keeping some form of attacking presence. Pace, skill and intelligence will always scare defenders, it doesn't particularly matter to me whether it's Martins, Owen, Jonas or N'Zogbia in the final third because they will all put fear into a back line, particularly those with little pace. What does cause a late reversal is a negative attitude and negative tactics. Getting rid of your attacking outlet all together to sit deep and defend in your own half in this league is suicide and we proved this by paying the ultimate price. For me if we had subbed Martins as we did and continued with a positive attitude we would have won that game.

 

So again I reiterate, no, subbing Martins doesn't help but at the same time subbing him is not the cause of our problems. We have conceded late goals for a variety of reasons this season from lack of concentration to having to defend with 10 men against a quality attacking team, but on this occasion we lost those two because we played negatively, not because we substituted Martins.

 

[The Prophet]

By the way, cracking thread Parky. It's nice to have a decent football debate for a change.

 

[Guest Goalfather]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

 

There is a stark difference however in the way both players have been treated. Formations and personnel and tactics have been tweaked to accomodate Owen. Martins has been treated with contempt by every manager since Roeder. He scored a double in his first game under Allardyce and did not get a chance to play half a dozen games b4 he was replaced by Owen as soon as Owen was half fit.

 

People are quick to comment on Martin's intelligence or rather the lack thereof.

 

I find this patently unfair.

 

Martins is a confidence player  and no manager has really tapped into it and made him feel like he really belongs. If I was Martins I would have handed in a transfer request eons ago.

[mrmojorisin75]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

 

There is a stark difference however in the way both players have been treated. Formations and personnel and tactics have been tweaked to accomodate Owen. Martins has been treated with contempt by every manager since Roeder. He scored a double in his first game under Allardyce and did not get a chance to play half a dozen games b4 he was replaced by Owen as soon as Owen was half fit.

 

People are quick to comment on Martin's intelligence or rather the lack thereof.

 

I find this patently unfair.

 

Martins is a confidence player  and no manager has really tapped into it and made him feel like he really belongs. If I was Martins I would have handed in a transfer request eons ago.

 

could not agree more if i tried

[Guest Edd]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

Virtually identical until you really look at them.  Martins has had 27 shots and score 5 goals, however owen has had only 15 shots yet scored 6 goals effectively making him twice the finisher Oba is and in a side struggling to create chances that's critical.  Maybe that's why we accomodate him when we can?

 

I'm also curious why you think it's "patently unfair" to criticise Martins for a lack of footballing intelligence when, IMO, that's the one aspect of his game that's indefensable.

[Isegrim]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

Virtually identical until you really look at them.  Martins has had 27 shots and score 5 goals, however owen has had only 15 shots yet scored 6 goals effectively making him twice the finisher Oba is and in a side struggling to create chances that's critical.  Maybe that's why we accomodate him when we can?

 

I'm also curious why you think it's "patently unfair" to criticise Martins for a lack of footballing intelligence when, IMO, that's the one aspect of his game that's indefensable.

 

Also the passing accuracy is quite different and probably the reason why Martins gets taken off...

[mrmojorisin75]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

Virtually identical until you really look at them.  Martins has had 27 shots and score 5 goals, however owen has had only 15 shots yet scored 6 goals effectively making him twice the finisher Oba is and in a side struggling to create chances that's critical.  Maybe that's why we accomodate him when we can?

 

I'm also curious why you think it's "patently unfair" to criticise Martins for a lack of footballing intelligence when, IMO, that's the one aspect of his game that's indefensable.

 

Also the passing accuracy is quite different and probably the reason why Martins gets taken off...

 

passing accuracy?  he's a striker ffs whose main assets are pace, strength and unpredictability...sounds like allardyce style bullshit; "sorry oba, not enough interceptions, you're on the bench the day, alan smith starts"

 

thought i'd repeat this as the main point of agreement with Goalfather:

 

"There is a stark difference however in the way both players have been treated. Formations and personnel and tactics have been tweaked to accomodate Owen. Martins has been treated with contempt by every manager since Roeder. He scored a double in his first game under Allardyce and did not get a chance to play half a dozen games b4 he was replaced by Owen as soon as Owen was half fit."

 

we barely have an ounce of guile or top quality in our team from CM or really the wings when the truth be told...therefore why we disregard our main threat to the opposition with such alarming regularity is beyond me

[Guest Goalfather]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

Virtually identical until you really look at them.  Martins has had 27 shots and score 5 goals, however owen has had only 15 shots yet scored 6 goals effectively making him twice the finisher Oba is and in a side struggling to create chances that's critical.  Maybe that's why we accomodate him when we can?

 

I'm also curious why you think it's "patently unfair" to criticise Martins for a lack of footballing intelligence when, IMO, that's the one aspect of his game that's indefensable.

 

 

Shots on target....

 

Point taken but  martins and Owen do not play in the same areas of the pitch. Owen plays a lot more centrally and Martins is usually on either wing. There is a greater tendency for shots taken from central areas to be more accurate than shots taken from the wings.

 

It would be also interesting to note if Owen takes more shots from inside the are than Martins

[TRon]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

Virtually identical until you really look at them.  Martins has had 27 shots and score 5 goals, however owen has had only 15 shots yet scored 6 goals effectively making him twice the finisher Oba is and in a side struggling to create chances that's critical.  Maybe that's why we accomodate him when we can?

 

I'm also curious why you think it's "patently unfair" to criticise Martins for a lack of footballing intelligence when, IMO, that's the one aspect of his game that's indefensable.

 

As Goalfather has said, comparing shooting stats like that is not really fair as Martins plays deeper and a lot of his shots are from further away or are manufactured by himself so can be from difficult angles. Owen's shots are usually close range and require someone feeding him a decent cross or pass, which does highlight the fact that Owen is the more natural goal poacher.

[Skirge]

taking off Oba takes away our pace upfront, if teams need to push forward they will feel a bit more comfortable doing that without the threat of Oba catching them out. Bervs is iut biggest threat though, so desperate to hang onto any lead we have we sit back and invite them onto us, taking Oba off is not good but its not the main reason we are failing to win games.

[madras]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

 

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

Virtually identical until you really look at them.  Martins has had 27 shots and score 5 goals, however owen has had only 15 shots yet scored 6 goals effectively making him twice the finisher Oba is and in a side struggling to create chances that's critical.  Maybe that's why we accomodate him when we can?

 

I'm also curious why you think it's "patently unfair" to criticise Martins for a lack of footballing intelligence when, IMO, that's the one aspect of his game that's indefensable.

 

Also the passing accuracy is quite different and probably the reason why Martins gets taken off...

 

passing accuracy?  he's a striker ffs whose main assets are pace, strength and unpredictability...sounds like allardyce style bullshit; "sorry oba, not enough interceptions, you're on the bench the day, alan smith starts"

 

thought i'd repeat this as the main point of agreement with Goalfather:

 

"There is a stark difference however in the way both players have been treated. Formations and personnel and tactics have been tweaked to accomodate Owen. Martins has been treated with contempt by every manager since Roeder. He scored a double in his first game under Allardyce and did not get a chance to play half a dozen games b4 he was replaced by Owen as soon as Owen was half fit."

 

we barely have an ounce of guile or top quality in our team from CM or really the wings when the truth be told...therefore why we disregard our main threat to the opposition with such alarming regularity is beyond me

if martins played like he did against villa where he showed good positioning and movement (off the centre halves instead if inbetween them without coming far too deep) he'd get more balls played to him like jonas's to owen the other day (i also think if he played like that joey barton would look twice the player aswell).

 

in the games he's been taking off the tide had already turned with him on the pitch and naturally the longer a game goes on like that the more chance there is of the opposition scoring. too many statmonsters on here who look purely for "when subbed/when the oppo scored" as opposed to the way the game was going before he got subbed.

[Andy]

Martins may lack ability and finesse at times, but one thing he always offers is threat. His mere presence forces opposing defenders to sit deeper, which in turn takes some of the pressure off our midfield (who, let's face it, aren't exactly technically wonderful when their game is being squeezed).

 

He'll never be a world class footballer, but as long as he has pace (power) he'll always be a danger, and frankly we are severely lacking in players who can be put in the same category.

[madras]

Martins may lack ability and finesse at times, but one thing he always offers is threat. His mere presence forces opposing defenders to sit deeper, which in turn takes some of the pressure off our midfield (who, let's face it, aren't exactly technically wonderful when their game is being squeezed).

 

He'll never be a world class footballer but as long as he has pace (power) he'll always be a danger, and frankly we are severely lacking in players who can be put in the same category.

his threat is often outweighed by his giving the ball away too easily and poor positioning meaning when we get the ball out it comes straight back.

[Andy]

Martins may lack ability and finesse at times, but one thing he always offers is threat. His mere presence forces opposing defenders to sit deeper, which in turn takes some of the pressure off our midfield (who, let's face it, aren't exactly technically wonderful when their game is being squeezed).

 

He'll never be a world class footballer but as long as he has pace (power) he'll always be a danger, and frankly we are severely lacking in players who can be put in the same category.

his threat is often outweighed by his giving the ball away too easily and poor positioning meaning when we get the ball out it comes straight back.

 

True, but Martins isn't exactly the only player guilty of giving the ball away too easily. We have players in far more volatile positions who give it away just as often if not more often.

 

Players like Viduka only offer a threat when the ball is in the box, which first requires us to be dominating the midfield and actually getting the ball into the box first. As our midfielders aren't good enough to do that, more often than not, we have to rely on the threat of a ball in-behind (or over the top of) the defence instead - there's only Martins in our squad who can really capitalize on that.

 

Opposing managers can blatantly see how limited we are when the game is squeezed, so as soon as that threat in-behind is removed, they literally push their defenders right up into the center of the pitch and laugh as our midfielders shit themselves at the first sign of pressure.