Is subbing Martins causing these late reversals?

[Tooj]

None, and that's why we need to keep that threat of pace until we can strengthen up in the center.

i'll take you back to the threat he carries pace wise (which he rarely uses and would be much more effective if he had decent positioning) is offset by his giving the ball away easy through poor control etc.

 

martins was ok under roeder, f***ing hopeless under SA, improved under KK once he got fit to the point where he was VERY dangerous on the break & in the latter half of games, now we're back to kinnear and him being erratic again

 

one good coach among 4 and the lad plays well, hmmmmm...maybe there's more to it?  coaching some might say

 

kk had the sense to come up with a system that suited both their strengths, kinnear appears barely able to come up with a system that suits either

due to having viduka out maybe. perhaps when he thinks viduka can last most of a game he'll go to 4-3-3.

 

think of how kinnear'd get slagged off if he went to a more attcking line up when we were under the cosh and clinging on to a lead.

 

But according to the muppets in the press this is how us fans want to see it. 

[Optimistic Nut]

I actually find it quite infuriating that Owen hardly ever shoots from outside the box even when the opportunity presents itself.

 

Shooting from outside of the box should not be seen as a negative as it keeps defences honest.

 

Or you play the percentages, which players like Owen do.

[Tooj]

I actually find it quite infuriating that Owen hardly ever shoots from outside the box even when the opportunity presents itself.

 

Shooting from outside of the box should not be seen as a negative as it keeps defences honest.

 

His shooting is terrible though from distance, back in the day I seem to remember him scoring a few decent strikes, but now he can't seem to get any power at all.

[KaKa]

I actually find it quite infuriating that Owen hardly ever shoots from outside the box even when the opportunity presents itself.

 

Shooting from outside of the box should not be seen as a negative as it keeps defences honest.

 

Or you play the percentages, which players like Owen do.

 

What percentages? We hardly create any chances so if you have space around the box then shoot the damn ball! We actually need more of this at the moment tbh. Martins vs Villa was a prime example.

 

If we created chances like Arsenal all day then I might agree with you, but we don't.

 

Guess Shearer was just as thick as Oba because he didn't always play the percentages right? 

 

 

[Tooj]

I actually find it quite infuriating that Owen hardly ever shoots from outside the box even when the opportunity presents itself.

 

Shooting from outside of the box should not be seen as a negative as it keeps defences honest.

 

Or you play the percentages, which players like Owen do.

 

What percentages? We hardly create any chances so if you have space around the box then shoot the damn ball! We actually need more of this at the moment tbh. Martins vs Villa was a prime example.

 

If we created chances like Arsenal all day then I might agree with you, but we don't.

 

Guess Shearer was just as thick as Oba because he didn't always play the percentages right? 

 

 

You can't comparing the decision making of Shearer and Martins though. That's like comparing The Dude to an L7 like George McFly.

[ChezGiven]

I actually find it quite infuriating that Owen hardly ever shoots from outside the box even when the opportunity presents itself.

 

Shooting from outside of the box should not be seen as a negative as it keeps defences honest.

 

His shooting is terrible though from distance, back in the day I seem to remember him scoring a few decent strikes, but now he can't seem to get any power at all.

 

The goal at West Ham the other month wasnt bad.

[Tooj]

I actually find it quite infuriating that Owen hardly ever shoots from outside the box even when the opportunity presents itself.

 

Shooting from outside of the box should not be seen as a negative as it keeps defences honest.

 

His shooting is terrible though from distance, back in the day I seem to remember him scoring a few decent strikes, but now he can't seem to get any power at all.

 

The goal at West Ham the other month wasnt bad.

 

It wasn't aye, but you know what I mean. I made a post about his shooting technique a long time ago, he scored a peach one game for England against Luxembourg at Wembley and I remember him having some power behind his shots at Liverpool, but he barely seems to anymore.

 

I hate how these threads always turn out to be an Owen vs Martins argument btw.

[Dave]

I hate how these threads always turn out to be an Owen vs Martins argument btw.

 

Aye. Fact is all three of our strikers have their own qualities and the starting team should be set up to take best advantage of all of them whenever possible.

 

With those three on the pitch and playing well we have a very potent strike force, better than many teams in this league. 'No-taktikz' Kevin Keegan got them working, and it should be a priority for whoever our manager is. Sadly Kinnear is far too negative to bother.

[Rich]

I hate how these threads always turn out to be an Owen vs Martins argument btw.

 

Aye. Fact is all three of our strikers have their own qualities and the starting team should be set up to take best advantage of all of them whenever possible.

 

With those three on the pitch and playing well we have a very potent strike force, better than many teams in this league. 'No-taktikz' Kevin Keegan got them working, and it should be a priority for whoever our manager is. Sadly Kinnear is far too negative to bother.

 

It boils my fucking piss.

 

It's not like we're winning games anyway, even the "easier" ones, so why not just go out, try and play football and have a fucking go?

 

Football these days man.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

It is generally accepted that a footballer will rapidly slow down in developing technical ability and skill levels at the age of 16-18 due mainly to the decrease in practice hours as they start being coached within the context of a game/team rather than an individual. Most of Martins and indeed the others' time on the training pitch will compromise of warm up and warm down drills, gym work, tactical and team play drills and sessions.

 

Unless the individual is almost obsessively willing to practice practice practice hours on end each and every day like they would as youngsters either by themselves or in a small group for which requires like-minded individuals to work with or are afforded individual expert coaching regimes tailored to their specific levels then there isn't going to be much if any improvement technically and skill level wise from the vast majority of players. In short with Martins what you see is what you get.

 

Of course better coaching in terms of tactics, positional play and the team in general as well as a positive environment coupled with tangible success (i.e. a winning team) any player can become more consistent, more all-rounded (i.e. 5-10% better at the basics) and even over perform. With Martins that needs to be the case for him to be a consistently high performing player, and indeed the vast majority of none elite players.

 

You will notice that your very very best players can perform to extremely high levels in all manner of set-ups, situations, teams and under various tactics and instructions.

 

Likewise you will notice your top players tend to practice practice practice. Currently Ronaldo is famous for endless after hours work on the training ground perfecting his art. Shearer was the same while some players like Michael Owen look to do extra via other routes such as one-on-one coaching (Simon Clifford and various fitness experts).

 

Martins will come into training, warm up and warm down, do a bit of gym work and maybe spend 1 hour training with the rest of the team working on team and tactical issues with maybe another half hour of small sided games. Then he'll go home.

 

For him to improve significantly would require selfless commitment to extra practice coupled with one-to-one coaching and the clincher, playing in a good and winning team.

 

I'd apply that to the vast majority of our players although most are lost causes in terms of technique and skill.

[Rich]

I think most of that is cock-on to be honest, and I don't often say that about your stuff.

 

While there are always exceptions to every rule, those still arguing that Martins is going to magically improve his vision, first-touch, ball-control and awareness, etc. etc. to a consistent level that we (probably unfairly at times) expect of him through "better coaching" (I mean how fucking vague is that?) are only going to be disappointed.

 

As far as I can see it's about getting the best out of what his good attributes are: pace, power, agility, etc. and making sure his confidence is up. He's a very, very good player when he's on his game and although he's not a perfect player, he's of immense importance to us as a football club, especially at this moment in time.

 

Rather than looking to improve what he doesn't do particularly well (which is a big ask at his age unless, as HTT says, he really wants to put the hours in) we should be doing what Keegan did and making the most of what he does do well. The lad still has moments of brilliant control/finishing/passing/vision and that's enough for me as long as he's doing it on a fairly regular basis. I don't expect him to be on fire with every game, but we've already seen what he can do if given the right role and good support - he hasn't really let us down.

 

 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I think most of that is cock-on to be honest, and I don't often say that about your stuff.

 

While there are always exceptions to every rule, those still arguing that Martins is going to magically improve his vision, first-touch, ball-control and awareness, etc. etc. to a consistent level that we (probably unfairly at times) expect of him through "better coaching" (I mean how f***ing vague is that?) are only going to be disappointed.

 

As far as I can see it's about getting the best out of what his good attributes are: pace, power, agility, etc. and making sure his confidence is up. He's a very, very good player when he's on his game and although he's not a perfect player, he's of immense importance to us as a football club, especially at this moment in time.

 

Rather than looking to improve what he doesn't do particularly well (which is a big ask at his age unless, as HTT says, he really wants to put the hours in) we should be doing what Keegan did and making the most of what he does do well. The lad still has moments of brilliant control/finishing/passing/vision and that's enough for me as long as he's doing it on a fairly regular basis. I don't expect him to be on fire with every game, but we've already seen what he can do if given the right role and good support - he hasn't really let us down.

 

 

 

Spot on and largely the key to it all.

 

Where Martins' game can be improved is in his consistency levels which to be fair to him, I'd be delighted with. He's never going to be an elite performer but with him its either awful or sublime. Something in the middle would be more than good enough. Again though that requires him playing in a side that plays to his strengths (and vice versa), a healthy environment and good coaching and instructions from the touchline which he and most haven't had at this club in a long time and may not get.

[Optimistic Nut]

Martins is a very good striker, no more, no less.

 

It's when people go off on one though when people largely over-rate him and whinge at him coming off for another good striker like Owen or Viduka that gets me. If we were sticking Ameobi or Carroll on in his place, then yeah I'd be p*ssed off too.

[Rich]

Martins is a very good striker, no more, no less.

 

It's when people go off on one though when people largely over-rate him and whinge at him coming off for another good striker like Owen or Viduka that gets me. If we were sticking Ameobi or Carroll on in his place, then yeah I'd be p*ssed off too.

 

Tend to agree with this. I rate Martins a lot more highly these days than I did back under Roeder/Allardyce, but he's not the player some on here make him out to be. He's still good like, and I'm glad we've got him.

[ChezGiven]

This thread needs an AS9 'explosive^tm' post

[Guest Goalfather]

http://telegraph.jumpmediagroup.com/PlayerStat.aspx?p1id=5127&p2id=3789

Martins and Owen stats are virtually identical.

 

There is a stark difference however in the way both players have been treated. Formations and personnel and tactics have been tweaked to accomodate Owen. Martins has been treated with contempt by every manager since Roeder. He scored a double in his first game under Allardyce and did not get a chance to play half a dozen games b4 he was replaced by Owen as soon as Owen was half fit.

 

 

Martins (2008/09) -- League =  5 goals in 36 shots, with 12 of those shots on goal, in 11 appearances, none of them as a substitute.  Martins' season is 5 goals in 39 shots, with 15 of those shots on goal in 12 appearances, none of them as a substitute.  He also has two assists.

             (2007/08) -- League = 9 goals in 72 shots, with 38 of those shots on goal, in 31 apps, 8 of those as a sub.  He had three assists.

 

Owen (2008/09) -- League = 6 goals in 19 shots, with 12 of those shots on goal, in 12 appearances, with four of them being as a substitute.  Owen's season has 8 goals in 23 shots, with 15 of those on goal, in 14 appearances, with five of them as a sub.

          (2007/08) -- League = 11 goals in 47 shots, with 31 of those shots on goal, in 29 appearances, with five of them as a sub.  He had one assist.  His season total was 12 goals in 51 shots, with 34 of those shots on goal, in 32 appearances, with five as a sub.  Still only one assist.

 

Martins' conversion ratio in the league this season is about 1 in 7.  In fact, 3 in 10 of his shots are even on target.  Owen's conversion ratio in the league this season is about 1 in 3, and about 6 in 10 of his shots are on target.  Last season, Martins conversion was 1 in 8.  Owen's conversion was 1 in 4.2.  I don't think that is quite "virtually identical".  At least, not in my maths classes.  Owen's goals to shots taken ratio is better -- enough so that I think you need more than "Martins' shots are from farther out" to equate the two.  If you're stating  Martins is taking worse shots, isn't that rather proving the point that he's not as good at reading the game as Owen?  At any rate, I think the conversion rate rather proves that if you are looking for a goal, Owen is the better bet to leave on if chances are scarce.  Plus, I think there is the opinion around that if you're looking for a player to drop into the midfield to defend effectively, Michael Owen is better suited to that than Oba Martins (see the Chelsea match).  It may or may not make sense to us, but I'd bet that's how Kinnear reasoned it when he's left Owen on when trying to defend a lead.

 

 

Shots on target....

 

Point taken but  martins and Owen do not play in the same areas of the pitch. Owen plays a lot more centrally and Martins is usually on either wing. There is a greater tendency for shots taken from central areas to be more accurate than shots taken from the wings.

 

Our team's strategy is not designed to create goals for Martins.

 

It is primarily designed to create goals for Owen.

 

 

[juniatmoko]

when the last time we won a game when we take off martin? i can't remember that clearly... it is not about how goal will score... and bla bla all of that... but just simple when we win when martin is take off???

[Guest Edd]

when the last time we won a game when we take off martin? i can't remember that clearly... it is not about how goal will score... and bla bla all of that... but just simple when we win when martin is take off???

Our last win.

[Parky]

Martins may lack ability and finesse at times, but one thing he always offers is threat. His mere presence forces opposing defenders to sit deeper, which in turn takes some of the pressure off our midfield (who, let's face it, aren't exactly technically wonderful when their game is being squeezed).

 

He'll never be a world class footballer but as long as he has pace (power) he'll always be a danger, and frankly we are severely lacking in players who can be put in the same category.

his threat is often outweighed by his giving the ball away too easily and poor positioning meaning when we get the ball out it comes straight back.

 

True, but Martins isn't exactly the only player guilty of giving the ball away too easily. We have players in far more volatile positions who give it away just as often if not more often.

 

Players like Viduka only offer a threat when the ball is in the box, which first requires us to be dominating the midfield and actually getting the ball into the box first. As our midfielders aren't good enough to do that, more often than not, we have to rely on the threat of a ball in-behind (or over the top of) the defence instead - there's only Martins in our squad who can really capitalize on that.

 

Opposing managers can blatantly see how limited we are when the game is squeezed, so as soon as that threat in-behind is removed, they literally push their defenders right up into the center of the pitch and laugh as our midfielders shit themselves at the first sign of pressure.

 

 

This.

[TRon]

Martins may lack ability and finesse at times, but one thing he always offers is threat. His mere presence forces opposing defenders to sit deeper, which in turn takes some of the pressure off our midfield (who, let's face it, aren't exactly technically wonderful when their game is being squeezed).

 

He'll never be a world class footballer but as long as he has pace (power) he'll always be a danger, and frankly we are severely lacking in players who can be put in the same category.

his threat is often outweighed by his giving the ball away too easily and poor positioning meaning when we get the ball out it comes straight back.

 

True, but Martins isn't exactly the only player guilty of giving the ball away too easily. We have players in far more volatile positions who give it away just as often if not more often.

 

Players like Viduka only offer a threat when the ball is in the box, which first requires us to be dominating the midfield and actually getting the ball into the box first. As our midfielders aren't good enough to do that, more often than not, we have to rely on the threat of a ball in-behind (or over the top of) the defence instead - there's only Martins in our squad who can really capitalize on that.

 

Opposing managers can blatantly see how limited we are when the game is squeezed, so as soon as that threat in-behind is removed, they literally push their defenders right up into the center of the pitch and laugh as our midfielders shit themselves at the first sign of pressure.

 

 

This.

 

I think it's worth pointing this out. The amount of stick both Martins and N'Zogbia get for losing the ball is funny when you consider we can't generally get the ball from one end of the pitch to the other without passing to the opposition. Generally those two lose the ball because they are at least trying to go forward with it, if we had enough movement across the pitch I'm sure passing woulkd be a lot easier for attacking players.

[mrmojorisin75]

Martins may lack ability and finesse at times, but one thing he always offers is threat. His mere presence forces opposing defenders to sit deeper, which in turn takes some of the pressure off our midfield (who, let's face it, aren't exactly technically wonderful when their game is being squeezed).

 

He'll never be a world class footballer but as long as he has pace (power) he'll always be a danger, and frankly we are severely lacking in players who can be put in the same category.

his threat is often outweighed by his giving the ball away too easily and poor positioning meaning when we get the ball out it comes straight back.

 

True, but Martins isn't exactly the only player guilty of giving the ball away too easily. We have players in far more volatile positions who give it away just as often if not more often.

 

Players like Viduka only offer a threat when the ball is in the box, which first requires us to be dominating the midfield and actually getting the ball into the box first. As our midfielders aren't good enough to do that, more often than not, we have to rely on the threat of a ball in-behind (or over the top of) the defence instead - there's only Martins in our squad who can really capitalize on that.

 

Opposing managers can blatantly see how limited we are when the game is squeezed, so as soon as that threat in-behind is removed, they literally push their defenders right up into the center of the pitch and laugh as our midfielders shit themselves at the first sign of pressure.

 

 

This.

 

I think it's worth pointing this out. The amount of stick both Martins and N'Zogbia get for losing the ball is funny when you consider we can't generally get the ball from one end of the pitch to the other without passing to the opposition. Generally those two lose the ball because they are at least trying to go forward with it, if we had enough movement across the pitch I'm sure passing woulkd be a lot easier for attacking players.

 

nail

 

head

 

someone was criticising martins movement and someone else his passing(!)...if we had a halfway decent midfield their passing would be dictating his movement and it'd be him tearing into the space between fullbacks and CB's rather than watching the ball either fly over his head or not reach him at all

[Dave]

I'd rather the likes of Martins and N'Zogbia lost the ball through running up a blind alley trying to attack than Nicky fucking Butt launching it upfield in the general direction of Michael 'Hello, I'm a midget' Owen.

 

Ideally neither would happen but I know which I think is more likely to produce for us.

[Optimistic Nut]

Bellamy linked with Celtic & City for around £5-6m. Now there's a player who could do everything Martins can't. Two years ago I wouldn't have touched him with a bargepole but I'd take him now. Think him & Owen up front would be brilliant.

[Tooj]

Bellamy linked with Celtic & City for around £5-6m. Now there's a player who could do everything Martins can't. Two years ago I wouldn't have touched him with a bargepole but I'd take him now. Think him & Owen up front would be brilliant.

 

He never plays though man.

[Dave]

His injury record is ridiculous these days. I can't get my head around those who'd still take Ashton either.