U23s & Academy

[nbthree3]

 

[Consortium of one]

probably will work for free

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, ManDoon said:

I don’t know if this is a shot at us or u23 football in general, but if it’s the latter I agree. Personally I would have a B team, playing actual games, academy football is pointless imo 

I won’t name names but my boy was at SAFC academy, currently at Boro and is wanted by NUFC and I guarantee all the coaches at that level think they need to be playing proper football at league level, whatever the level, as academy games are shit basically and played half arsed and mostly about one or two maybe top players at whatever club being supported by a back up team of shit players who would be better off actually getting game time again regardless of the level, that’s why so may just drop out/dissapear apparently.

[Guest HTT II]

I must clarify I mean players 18 and over and even some think some of the under 18s need proper league football. As for the other academy football I know NUFC under 7s/8s/9/ regularly play cannon fodder team to win because it pleases the parents to see their kid score 5 against a team even someone whose never played would smash it against such opposition. It’s terrible all round IMO and especially at NUFC.

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Completely agree, from my experience it is honestly like watching a different sport. It’s all very nice technically, but there is no intensity basically at all. Going to watch say league 2 or even like NL, after watching academy football is so jarring. It’s twice as quick, ten times more physical. I think Brentford have a B team and they’ve done okay. 

Aye mate you can’t beat playing football competitively whatever the level, academy stuff regardless is not competitive and look at Armstrong and Toney what playing regular competitive football whatever the level has done for their game. 

[Guest HTT II]

I’ve seen my son play for SAFC against say a shit team from Whitley Bay and absolutely batter them and then they will play say Liverpool under 8s and it’s pre organised to make sure whoever is the ‘best’ kid in either team to shine and the rest are making up numbers so you get one or two kids standing out and the rest looking shite. Then they get released and get replaced by more let’s make up the numbers players. 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

9 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Yeah I think after 16 these players need to be playing in actual games, they will learn a lot more playing Blyth than any u23 team. Pep even said as much recently didn’t he when they played against Akinfenwa 

Definitely mate I know tonnes of former NUFC ex academy players who are playing lower leagues/non leagues and they said it’s helped their game more then when they were at a so called PL academy/team/set up. These under 23 games, under 21 games etc are glorified games to make the one kid deemed the next star stand out or give game time to a group of players their clubs know will never make it, but on the off chance one might and that’s what it’s about mostly, even at under 7, 8, 9 level etc. it’s a disgrace really, especially at 7, 8, 9 year old level.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

Boro development pretty decent, but I’d rather my boy not sign for an academy right now because he wouldn’t be allowed to play football with anyone else or anywhere else even at school. Academy football at my boy’s age kind of staged, loads of games against teams shitty local teams and when it come to playing another pro academy, it’s kind of fixed. I shouldn’t say this but NUFC under 7s were battered by Doncaster Rovers under 7s a few months back and they play top tier teams in their region not  cannon fodder teams like we do, and our under 7 NUFC team has some serious talent.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by HTT II

[sh74]

im surprised they start at u7's, that's shocking. my lad was at NUFC 8 years ago and they started academy football at u9's which i thinks still way too young. Personally i don't think kids should be at academies till at least u15's.

[Guest HTT II]

30 minutes ago, sh74 said:

im surprised they start at u7's, that's shocking. my lad was at NUFC 8 years ago and they started academy football at u9's which i thinks still way too young. Personally i don't think kids should be at academies till at least u15's.

Agreed fully mate it’s shit for the kids!

[Shearergol]

Seem to be doing rather well against Harrogate tonight. The future looks bright.

[toontownman]

Newcastle United FC (@NUFC) Tweeted: ? ????-???? ? Jonjo Shelvey starts for #NUFC U23s ahead of tonight's #PLCup tie against Birmingham City. Kick-off at Whitley Park is at 7pm (BST). ⚫⚪ https://t.co/6UopZj9knl

 

Taking a look at some kid called Hatem who is available on a free.

[Guest]

Still no Santi?

[Guest]

Trialist scores.

[toontownman]

Isaac Westendorf is the trialist. Non league player the chronicle did a little write up on:

 

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/isaac-westendorf-newcastle-trialist-u23s-21743858.amp

 

Edit: 3-0 up. Anderson then Stephenson. 

Edit edit: FT 4-0 Anderson penalty for the brace.

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by toontownman

[Newcastle Fan]

Isaac Westendorf Scored again today, think he earned to join the U-23.  opponents Newcastle Benfield have 44 yearold Paul Brayson playing for them

[Guest]

Part of me feels like Academy setups should be illegal. It builds parent's hopes up, the kid's hopes and takes the fun away from football and what for? For 0.2% of the kids to potentially make their debut in the Premier League? It ruins the kids education, emotional and social development. Then they're shown the door with little-to-no aftercare after they've spent their formative years embedded in a system built around football and training. 

[ponsaelius]

There was a BBC Panorama on that very issue recently. Was a decent watch. Should be still on iplayer. 

 

Michael Calvin's book No Hunger In Paradise is also good. 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by ponsaelius

[Guest HTT II]

My nephew who is now 20 odd was at NUFC’s academy when he was 7 and ended up hating it and now doesn’t play football or even watch it, sadly we as parents or in my case the uncle (me being the huge football follower in his family) kind of pushed it as we were basically promised this and that and it’s NUFC, my club, you see stars, and it obviously never materialised. He’s a great kid and this hasn’t effected him in any way in his life, he’s actually into martial arts and has had a few fights and doing really well.

 

My own 7 year old son is footy daft and I never once pushed him into it, if anything I tried to stay clear of it, but England at the last WC grabbed loads of kids his age attention and that’s when he took it up. He was at SAFC academy for over a year recently and although Covid impacted that at times, he was always asked to return. A few months back they emailed saying he is to be released, no feedback whatsoever, in that time he’d played a few games for them against their other academy sides, and stood out. 
 

One day they emailed me to  ask if he could play against Preston under 7s for SAFC but we were up at the caravan on a holiday this was just when the first lockdown ended and we needed a family break and this email come on the morning of the day they’d be facing Preston. I said sorry, too much short notice for us and we are on a minifamily break. No reply back. A few days later I learned they had asked other parents and it was a case of which one replied first as one of their ‘star’ under 7 players had picked up an injury and couldn’t play.
 

I’m sure me refusing my son to play in some shitty under 7s game that day, helped them to decide on letting him go, that and Boro and NUFC were scouting him anyway, as every session or game I saw him with SAFC he stood out. Some kids that shouldn’t be in any academy are still there and it’s actually cruel because these kids can barely kick a ball straight. Other kids were much quicker and more direct than my boy, but my boy is so strong at shielding the ball, will beat his man for fun and is genuinely two footed and for me if I could compare him to someone I’d say John Barnes.

 

I’m laid back these days so I just told him they have to give other kids a chance, it’s a cycle thing and he got it, but he was gutted more because he had made so many good friends at SAFC and loved the coaches who are great by the way and so is the rest of the academy staff. Ironically a month or so back an SAFC scout asked about number 7, my boy, I said really yous have just let him go, he was shocked and said is it OK if I still monitor his games and I said knock yourself out but he won’t ever be going back to SAFC. 

 

He’s now at Boro and enjoying it but if they like him and want to sign him up once he turns 8 or 9 which could happen, that will mean he cannot play for his Saturday or Sunday teams again or train anywhere else. In such a scenario he would get an hour’s training a week and an academy game at the weekend for a max of maybe 40 mins (20 min half’s) but not the full 40 mins as he’ll be subbed on and off like they all will. Or he’ll play a few tournaments where it’s usually ten minute games between 6-10 teams. Trust me I’ve seen NUFC under 8s lose 11-1 to Doncaster under 8s, the standard is poor really and no different to grassroots Saturday/Sunday kids’ football, and sometimes at a lesser level.

 

So he signs for Boro and unless he’s outstanding, he’ll probably be let go a year later or a few years later, having missed out on so much proper footy at grassroots level and socialising on and off the pitch with the kids he started out with and now knows and are genuinely his mates.

 

Honestly, I’d rather he plays for who he wants when he wants and he’d choose his Saturday and Sunday team any day of the week over Boro or SAFC or NUFC and although it’s his game and he’s the boss, I’m just his taxi basically and cash machine, as his dad I’d advise him to stick with grassroots footy and ignore any academy because if your good at 7, and then still as good at 15, 16, 17, someone will give you a chance. And if not, you’ve had a great kick-about with your mates for a good few years and hopefully will enjoy footy for the rest of your life, playing and following it, like I do today playing 5–a-side here and there when fit and able to.

 

The experience with SAFC is all the kids are playing way too much footy for a start, it’s an ego trip for a lot of parents and the club itself maybe has say at the under 8 level 1 outstanding player, a few just below that and the rest are there to make up the numbers so they can put a team out and they look for certain specific traits in a kid, a 7 year old, speed, running ability, work rate and doing exactly what they are instructed which creates little robot like machine players who are identikit and knocks any individualism and flair out of them that may be natural or needs nurtured more naturally.

 

I know 4 kids who NUFC will sign at under 9 soon, I get on with their parents, they are all good little footballers, but play the same, do the same things and my boys Sunday team who are not the best, once beat NUFC’s under 8s development team 3-1 a few months back and narrowly lost 2-1 to their so-called elite team. It’s all fucked up and a horrible meat factory basically. 

Of course as a dad it’s a pride thing when your kid is good enough to join an academy, but I’ve realised are academies good enough for our kids and I’d say hell no, they are the absolute worst environment for any kid even upto the ages of say 15. I now look at as free coaching/use of better facilities and I know my boy as much as he’s the best player I’ve ever seen play and always will be and trust me he is fucking mint - he broke his kick up record recently, 213 with both feet, mostly his right, he’s got as much chance of making it as me shagging Cheryl Cole!

 

There has been, I must say, great improvements and strides made in academy football in the last decade which has been reflected in England’s performances, but half the players had to go to a lower level first to actually get game time and you cannot beat playing games at any level. My boy, an hours training a week at say Boro and some shitty  academy game against another Boro academy side or Doncaster or Preston competing with every other kid for that lottery ticket win or playing and training with his buddies who he’s been with from the start every week and playing games against teams and kids who are not set up to be some cannon fodder but come from the same stock and journey as he has, well, it’s a no brainier.

 

I wouldn’t ban clubs running academies, but I’d ban them being able to sign up kids from 8/9 upwards and have a monopoly on them and let them still play and train for whoever they want, when they want. I’d make it illegal for any club to be able to solely sign up a kid until they are 16 and a mandatory 2 year contract must me handed out because there are kids I know who have been at all 3 NE clubs from the age of 9 and then let go at 16 and they have sacrificed a lot and gave their all to their game and their ‘club’ and then left on the scrap heap and that’s not right. That’s why I don’t begrudge players making good money, even shit ones, to think even Shelvey who I don’t rate and is kind of stealing a living right now, trace his time back to say when he was 6 when he first got into football. The time and effort he’s put in, the sacrifices, the work load, the pressure, the dedication, so he should be richly rewarded financially.

 

I say to my boy right now, if you miss a goal or make a mistake don’t worry, unless this is your job and somoene is paying you to not miss a goal or make a mistake, it means nowt, when someone does pay you to be a footballer and it’s your job, then you better try and not miss or make a mistake, until then, you go out there and do whatever ot is you want to do when you have the ball at your feet, but respect your team-mates and coaches, especially your coaches, now they are not being paid to take your team on, train yous and coach yous, they do it out of love and because this sport of ours is arguably the greatest game any kid could play, but it has to be for fun and for the hell of it if you’re a kid especially. Sorry for the long post, but this is a topic close to my heart.

 

Btw 3 of the greatest players to have ever come from our region and indeed a former special manager of ours, have all said at one time in the past, today, at an academy they probably wouldn’t have made it. I give you Gazza, Waddle, Beardsley and King Kev…

[Guest HTT II]

Another thing and I’m not having a go at them but at SAFC a lot of the coaches are failed academy products, I say failed, I hate using that word, but they never made it and credit to SAFC for having a programme in place that takes care of those that don’t make it or gives them a route back into the game, they are all amazing, but their coaching is basically based on what they failed at/didn’t do/couldn’t do and so they look for kids that can do what they couldn’t and kind of rather than have a unique set of template style coaching to each individual kid based on what they can and can’t do or need to do, they have just this one must be able to do/have to do template. And if not, well… they will be lucky even if SAFC gives them a route back into the game as coach in they late teens/early 20s. 

[woody]

8 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Another thing and I’m not having a go at them but at SAFC a lot of the coaches are failed academy products, I say failed, I hate using that word, but they never made it and credit to SAFC for having a programme in place that takes care of those that don’t make it or gives them a route back into the game, they are all amazing, but their coaching is basically based on what they failed at/didn’t do/couldn’t do and so they look for kids that can do what they couldn’t and kind of rather than have a unique set of template style coaching to each individual kid based on what they can and can’t do or need to do, they have just this one must be able to do/have to do template. And if not, well… they will be lucky even if SAFC gives them a route back into the game as coach in they late teens/early 20s. 

That's really interesting. My youngest sister was on the Canadian junior national team at points as it was being overhauled and it's surprising (although it shouldn't be) how often politics - like who is close to the coach or in one case who was a booster for the team - still influences decisions. Credit to her, she turned 17 and decided she'd rather go in to medicine than try to eke out a living as a footballer.

[Guest HTT II]

11 minutes ago, woody said:

That's really interesting. My youngest sister was on the Canadian junior national team at points as it was being overhauled and it's surprising (although it shouldn't be) how often politics - like who is close to the coach or in one case who was a booster for the team - still influences decisions. Credit to her, she turned 17 and decided she'd rather go in to medicine than try to eke out a living as a footballer.

Good on your sister, there is a kid at NUFC’s academy whose mam is an agent and honestly this kid is fucking shit (under 8s) again it’s cruel him being there, he’s only there because his mam is an agent and she’s a fucking proper snob as a result even though she is mutton dressed as lamb, false as Santa’s whiskers. There is another kid whose dad is a pro footballer and his kid is at the academy, I won’t name which one, and again he’s shit and only there because his dad plays for said club.
 

My friend, his son is at an academy and if he doesn’t make it I’ll be shocked, his younger brother is at the same academy and again he can barely kick a ball straight and it’s cruel on him as you can tell he hates it, he’s in there so the academy keeps his older brother sweet and on good terms.
 

I must say of the 3 NE academies, NUFC have the more stricter set up in terms of who joins and doesn’t and have a rule a kid has to be scouted 4 times and then it goes to a panel of two to decide, my boy has been scouted 3 times and scouts are at his games every weekend, mind they are probably watching his team mate who is at the under 8s at NUFC already, a cracking left footed player who will likely sign for them soon meaning we lose him as he won’t be able to play for his grassroots team. 

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by HTT II

[Guest]

21 hours ago, HTT II said:

Another thing and I’m not having a go at them but at SAFC a lot of the coaches are failed academy products

 

This isn't unique to Sunderland. Academies have a lot of younger coaches that were once academy players and never made it, but were liked by whoever does the recruiting. I was told early on it isn't what you know, but if your face fits, by an NUFC Academy coach... and they're not wrong. It doesn't surprise me one bit at the current coaches currently coaching from u7s-u16s at the club. It's also one of the reasons I realised I probably wouldn't want to or enjoy coaching at Academy level (at least locally). It becomes life consuming too. 

 

The entire Academy system is a bit of a farce, I'm talking as a whole here, not specifically NUFC or SAFC. For some its jobs for the boys, for others its hiring coaches that are good with kids. Some take feedback from the coaches, others don't. Some coaches share feedback and progress reports between 2-4 year age gaps to make sure transitions are covered, others don't. If one coach doesn’t like a kid - it's over.

It's just a protection of investment and potential fee in the making, which to me says everything I need to know - they don't treat the kids as kids, or even footballers, but commodities.  Disposable, replaceable, resources.

Ideally, the local grassroots club should be linked directly to whatever semi-pro/professional club is in their region and any kids that are developed there are eligible for scholarship programs and once they turn 16. Before that professional coaches should be going along to the grassroots clubs to coach the team.

 

That way you have coaches (that are being paid) at grassroots, the grassroots scene is healthy, kids are still with their mates, attending school (not getting caught up in the routine and demands of a professional football while still a kid) and the churn shouldn’t happen as much. You might think that the coach is wasting their time coaching the entire team for that 1 kid, but are they not increasing the ability and standard for all children on the team? They might not all make it pro or semi-pro, but as a byproduct it increases the standard of football at grassroots rather than it being ‘reluctant parent doing it so the 7 players that didn’t get a team aren’t turned away’. It's a pet peeve of mine how little regard we have for coaches in this country, where only elite level coaches get paid (or community coaches which are more sports activators and PE Cover providers than football coaches). 

 

I think it'd also show those who DO want to coach and aren't just doing it because they can't do anything else (which goes back to former academy players not being prepared for life outside of football). There are plenty of coaches I can think of that are coaching professionally at youth level that wouldn't be doing it if they weren't being paid or weren't attached to a professional football club. There's no way they'd be doing it at grassroots level as they don't love coaching, they just like that they have job and can use it to brag about on their linkedin profile or whatever. 

 

I don’t for one minute believe it’ll ever happen, and I’m sure there’s plenty of downfalls I haven’t considered, but at the moment the way Academies currently operate doesn’t seem healthy. I supposed it might harm the open training mentality some grassroots have and increase trials and turnaway. I really don’t know.

I guess I really don’t like how football has become such a big business from top to bottom, and I mean bottom – I’m talking Grassroots. The amount of grassroots clubs out there that treat their teams below the age of 16 as Champions League contenders is nuts.

So really, I don't know what the answer is. I just know that I don't like the current setup and feel it's harmful to kids, and just some sort of ego factory for parents and coaches to use as a tool to brag about "My kid is at..." "I coached that player when he was a kid..." when in truth I think a vast majority of the pros that made it would probably have made it without Randy Noone coaching them for 12 months in the u9s. The amount of coaches I've met that flaunt they have a UEFA B and ridicule others on their level of qualifications in the region is nuts -- and yes, they're ex academy players that never made. Perhaps they have a chip on their shoulder and it isn't a true reflection of other coaches outside of the region (or even the environment these failed players where raised in). 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by OCK

[Consortium of one]

Great post OCK.  What puzzles me the most is what about the 7 or 8 y/o who goes on to lose the baby fat at 10 or 11?  What about the puny shrimp that has a growth spurt?  Those children who get jettisoned or never had a chance because they weren't physically (or even emotionally) ready at 8 could be so much better if they had the same chance.  

[Guest]

It might have changed over the last ten years, but they'd literally look at the parents and make a decision based on the parent's build and height. It hasn't been unheard of for some ethnicities to be turned away too, simply due to their cultural diets and habits (not officially of course). The whole thing is stone age people piloting a starship at times. I know of one academy player that was measuring themselves constantly as they knew if they weren't 6' they would get binned since they were a CB. KIDS doing this. Like anyone u18 needs that stressor or blatant body shaming. It's bizzare. 

 

You don't get that (or shouldn't get that anywhere) at grassroots level. 

 

Strangely, I think the way that women's football do it is for the best, and it used to be how men's football was. Everyone plays for their grassroots team (and is encouraged to) then the talented players are invited to attend a regional talent centre once a week for extra coaching. Although the end product here is to produce England players, not Club players, so I guess that plays a part in it.