Hillsborough disaster

[Guest Anth.Nufc]

Found this video i remember it being on itv You need to join up to view it

 

http://www.veoh.com/search/videos/q/hillsborough#watch%3Dv6972342TqHTGyMh

[Guest Brazilianbob]

Anyone who has ever stood on the Leppings lane terrace, and I was last there in the late 70's, will know that once through the gate the natural urge is to head down the central tunnel because that is where the best view is.  Going to the side pens means you don't get the best view.

 

The tunnel is long and narrow enough to suggest that it would have been impossible for fans to have been literally forced down it by the police.

 

Yes, they could have been herded in that direction by the police, but once in the tunnel, because fans don't want to move sideways once they reach the terrace, those in the tunnel simply try to push those already on the terraces forwards, and they have to move aside to let those in the tunnel take their place on the terrace or be forced down to the bottom step in front of the fence where the view is terrible.

 

That is what happened when I was there and it is what I believe happened on that dreadful day.

 

Because the start of the match was imminent, those at the back of the tunnel would have been pushing very hard to get out onto the terrace so they could see their heroes.  They would have been ignorant of the mayhem caused by their pushing, but they must nevertheless, shoulder some of the responsibility rather than attempt to blame it entirely on the police/authorities.

 

Lots of things could have been done better on the day with hindsight, and I am absolutely certain that was the case with the twin towers terrorist attack in New York.

 

The trick is to learn from your mistakes, but looking back to the Liverpool Champions league Final in Athens, I recall reading that the Liverpool fans were still up to their old trick of storming the ticket checkpoints in order to get in without a ticket.  Luckily the Athens stadium didn't have a Leppings lane type entrance or we might have been reading about more fatalities on that night!  But that would have been the fault of poor organization by UEFA or the local police wouldn't it?

[Guest toonlass]

Direct questions to Howaythelads.

 

Why did the police direct the fans all into the one pen then? Yes it probably was a mistake but you cannot blame the Liverpool fans for that can you? At the end of the day the policing failed. You can blame the fans if you wish but you seem to have forgotten one thing. POLICE are supposed to POLICE the event, make it safe, instead they fell apart, opened a gate, failed to organise where the fans should have gone when they were inside the ground, then ignored screaming, dying fans and didn't open the gates at the front until it was far too late. Even then, they failed to help the fans who were obviously ill and dying, mistaking tragedy for an incident of hooliganism. Say what you want about the Liverpool fans, because we all know they were the only fans to behave in the way you describe in the 70's and 80's right? Rubbish, every team had an element of hooliganism there, including us. But the police failed that day, and they attempted to cover up their failures and shame the names of the 96 who died and their friends and family who did their level best to save them.

 

You obviously failed to see the Liverpool fans who stretchered their mates down the pitch despite them being dead. You obviously didn't see fans hoisting their fellow fans up out of the crush saving their lives. You must have missed the fans who, without training, attempted CPR because the police wouldn't let the ambulance service through. Ambulances which sat outside Hillsbrough unable to go in and do their job and save some lives because the police wouldn't let them You call people for believing the Liverpool propaganda machine, and yet you have fallen into believing the South Yorkshire Police propaganda machine which decided to let the police who f***ed up go unpunished for their actions.

direct question to blufescu....what lead to the police making the decision to open the gate ?

 

no one is saying "the supporters are solely to blame" it was a mixture of circumstances in which a section of the liverpool support have to accept some responsibilty.

 

 

Inadequate and poor policing on the outside of the ground. Fans with tickets for the other end of the ground were forced into the Leppings Lane end where police thought they could contain them.

 

 

[Howaythelads]

 

Been going to football matches since 1968, mate. Thought I'd mention it given your comment above.

 

Wonderful, mate, but I don't see where I questioned your service to football.

 

You said..."Of course this is just my opinion on it all, so I won't continue with the blame thing further, anyone with half a brain and experience of policing at football games can go and read first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hillsborough, and make up their own minds." The implication is obvious, you think anyone disagreeing with you can't possibly have much experience of seeing how football matches are policed, ie, they don't have much experience of attending football matches. I was putting you right, that's all. Perhaps you don't understand your own comment.

 

I didn't like the fences but they weren't put there to stop the players or the Police from entering the crowd. Think about it.

 

A ridiculous over-reaction by the footballing authorities, treating the average football fan like an animal, and finally resulting in many deaths? yeah I've thought about it.

An easy get out following that almost worn out path of liverpool fans failing to take responsibility for their actions and desperately looking for anything or anyone else to blame. The fences contributed to the situation in so far as they were there, but again it's cause and effect. If hordes of liverpool fans hadn't been attempting to illegally force their way into the stadium there wouldn't have been a problem at all.

Can I take it that by believing first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hilsborough you're talking about liverpool fans and nobody else? What about the first hand accounts of the Police? What can be seen on video of people trying to break into the ground because they'd arrived there without tickets with that very intention? Does that not count or contribute toward this incident?

So what were the police doing to prevent the few ticket-less fans trying to gain entry? surely they should of been prepared if indeed this was the case? instead they herded fans into sections that were already full, and the police inside the ground did f*** all when people we're asking for help through the fences.

 

To suggest it was a few is rubbish. There were many, many more than a few. In any case, nobody has said the Police didn't make mistakes so there's no point in you harping on about it, nobody has to be convinced of that so your point is irrelevant.

 

Dave is right. It always descends into blame but that's usually because some nob throws in a ridiculous line about the Police, as though they were 100% the cause of the incident, then the discussion kicks off again because they weren't 100% the cause. Anyone with half a brain would know that, but the public wants a scapegoat for these things.

So to question the police means you're a nob? nice.

 

I didn't say that, but if you feel misrepresentation is your best way forward then that's up to you.

 

[jimmymag]

Anyone who had the experience of attending football matches when the fences were up knew this was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

My worst experience was at Spurs in an FA cup quarter final that wasn't all ticket and people were getting crushed due to the sheer numbers of people pouring into the Geordie end. I remember some fans trying to climb up the fence and a policemen hitting them with his megaphone. So much for communication and police control eh!?

[Guest Scouseman]

Howaythelads quote. color=blue]"To suggest it was a few is rubbish. There were many, many more than a few. In any case, nobody has said the Police didn't make mistakes so there's no point in you harping on about it, nobody has to be convinced of that so your point is irrelevant".[/color]

 

Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?

 

200. It has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares" during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area. Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.

 

201. First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accomodation been full by 2.40pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

 

202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G. However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124. I recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

 

[Howaythelads]

To suggest it was a few is rubbish. There were many, many more than a few. In any case, nobody has said the Police didn't make mistakes so there's no point in you harping on about it, nobody has to be convinced of that so your point is irrelevant.

 

Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?

 

200. It has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares" during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area. Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.

 

201. First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accomodation been full by 2.40pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

 

202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G. However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124. I recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

 

 

Not being funny, mate. But what do you think caused the mass of people outside the ground? Do you really think liverpool supporters were in no way to blame at all?

 

There were people there without tickets and it was more than a few. The number would have been significant because even a couple of hundred is significant when trying to force their way into that part of the ground. Do you think it ends with just those people without tickets? What about the people with tickets who turned up late, getting into a state of panic and trying to force their way in? Add that lot to the bunch without tickets and you've got a large group of people all trying to force their way in. Had this not been the situation what decisions would the Police have needed to take to get wrong? Answer=None. It wouldn't have happened.

 

I really wish liverpool people could just accept their part in it and then drop the subject with just a small way of remembering it each year if that's what they want to do. Yes, we shouldn't forget this terrible incident, but the degree to which liverpool supporters go on about this year after year shows to me there is a bit of guilt in there somewhere. I think deep down they know, they just don't want to admit it.

[Guest toonlass]

With all due respect Howaythelads you are talking bollocks.

 

 

 

 

Here are the 4 main findings of the Taylor enquiry.

 

"The Inquiry which was held in Sheffield, began on 15th May 1989 and lasted thirty-one days. Taylor's findings as laid out in the Interim Report can be summarised as follows:

 

1. The immediate cause of the Disaster was the failure to cut off access to the central pens once gate C had been opened. This caused the overcrowding which led to the Disaster.

 

2. The central pens (3 and 4) were already overfull because there was no numerical control of entry nor any effective visual monitoring of crowd density.

 

3. Under the strain of overcrowding in Pen 3, a barrier collapsed, exacerbated by what Taylor referred to as the "sluggish reaction and response when the crush occurred". Lack of leadership and the small size and number of gates in the perimeter fencing hindered rescue attempts.

 

4. Gate C, an 'exit' gate between the inner concourse and the outside, was opened by the police because of the dangerous congestion at the turnstiles. There was no recognition, either by the club or the police, that unless fans arrived steadily over a long, drawn-out period the turnstiles would not be capable of coping with the large numbers involved. This was made worse by the fact that the operational order and police tactics did not consider the possibility of a large concentration of late arrivals. This situation, according to Taylor, was made worse by a drunken minority and the club's confused and inadequate signs and ticketing."

 

 

Also this, from an independent site reporting on the enquiry,

 

"However, unlike the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985 this tragedy didn't occur because of hooliganism, as there was no violence between the two sets of fans. This incident was solely down to congestion. Thousands of fans travelling to the game were late due to traffic on the roads and delays to the railway, however nobody at the ground thought it appropriate to delay the 3pm kick off time. As a result many fans hurriedly entered the ground at the same time to avoid missing any further action. Unfortunately no effort was made to relieve the overcrowding, such as opening large gates. No entrances were sealed off and none of the fans were redirected to safer areas. This along with the ineffectiveness and slowness of the police to react resulted in nearly 100 deaths. "

 

And

 

 

"The failure to close or block the tunnel leading into the already full pens three and four once the police

had ordered Gate C to be opened was the immediate cause of the disaster, but the public inquiries set

up by the Thatcher Government under Lord Justice Peter Taylor found, more generally, that football had

simply not learned anything from the numerous disasters in its past, that it and the police were so

obsessed with the threat of violence that they were unable to spot people in genuine danger of their lives,

that police fundamentally lost control of the situation, and did not demonstrate the leadership expected

of senior officers, that safety procedures were inadequate, that the ground was badly maintained and

dangerous, that fans were routinely treated with contempt by football, and that fans had been the victims

rather the guilty party. His reports, published in August 1989 and January 1990, dismissed the allegations

against Liverpool supporters for the disaster, and called instead for a total rethink in the industry's attitudes

towards fans, and on the issue of safety. It also highlighted the failures by local authorities to check

safety certificates for stadia (Sheffield Wednesday had redeveloped parts of the ground without obtaining

a new safety certificate, or telling the emergency services: the result was that the safety certificate was

outdated and useless, and that plans Sheffield Wednesday had developed with the local emergency

services could not be put into practice, as the layout of the ground had changed).

 

Specifically, Taylor recommended the closure of terraces at all grounds, new safety measures on exits

and entrances, and a new advisory committee on stadium design to ensure that best practice was followed.

Crucially, Taylor also recommended that the Government's Identity Card scheme (whereby all fans would

have to have a membership card to get into a ground) be dropped, on grounds of safety, a suggestion

that the Government reluctantly carried out. Taylor's report did not have the force of law, and not all his

recommendations were carried out, but his work in identifying the wider reasons for the disaster has been

acknowledged as one of the most significant turning points in the history of English football. The result

was the total transformation of British stadia, paid for in large part by tax-payers' money, with terraces at

grounds in the top two divisions closed by May 1994, and new safety regulations and regimes put in place

at every stadium."

 

 

 

[Guest Scouseman]

The evidence is there for you to read, it's the best evidence available.  If you don't believe it nothing I or anyone else could say would make you change your mind.  Nothing that day was any different to any other semi final as far as hooliganism, riots or inter fan fighting goes. There wasn't any of that, so it's obvious that something else caused it.  Police have a duty of care and for many reasons, the main one being that the chief constable of the day had no experience of handling a match of that magnitude and had only been in the job for three weeks, they failed in their duty.  The police heirarchy then did  all they could, including lies and changing written evidence, to put the blame on fans.  It was easy wasn't it, after Heysel?

 

Lord Justice Taylor was a Geordie and a match going Newcastle fan in his youth.  I believe this gave him the insight to cut through all the police bullshit and produce an accurate report.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Whether ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted, the death of innocent people due to total negligence of safety and indeed missing human decency. The authorities were responsible for the safety of all those fans inside that pen and they failed and massively so. They are to blame, no-one else.

[madras]

Howaythelads quote. color=blue]"To suggest it was a few is rubbish. There were many, many more than a few. In any case, nobody has said the Police didn't make mistakes so there's no point in you harping on about it, nobody has to be convinced of that so your point is irrelevant".[/color]

 

Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?

 

200. It has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares" during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area. Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.

 

201. First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accomodation been full by 2.40pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

 

202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G. However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124. I recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

 

maybe this is too obvious but..........

 

200.......how would the police know who had tickets and who didn't ?

 

201 & 202........that explains what happened after the surge and the dynamics of it....not the reasons for the surge.

[Adam]

Why are football fans really violent, yet in rugby fans mix in and everyone has a laugh ?

[magpie418]

You said..."Of course this is just my opinion on it all, so I won't continue with the blame thing further, anyone with half a brain and experience of policing at football games can go and read first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hillsborough, and make up their own minds." The implication is obvious, you think anyone disagreeing with you can't possibly have much experience of seeing how football matches are policed, ie, they don't have much experience of attending football matches. I was putting you right, that's all. Perhaps you don't understand your own comment.

 

Ooh, a nice authoritarian blue colour... I feel like i'm talkin' to a copper.

 

Despite your gift with typography, you appear to be somewhat of a paranoid/deluded fool, read what I said again, I said that 'anyone with half a brain' (ie, meaning pretty much anyone) 'and experience of policing'...

 

(Translated the sentence pretty much means 'everyone' who has been to a football match can read the evidence and make up their own minds). simple?

 

 

 

I didn't like the fences but they weren't put there to stop the players or the Police from entering the crowd. Think about it.

 

A ridiculous over-reaction by the footballing authorities, treating the average football fan like an animal, and finally resulting in many deaths? yeah I've thought about it.

An easy get out following that almost worn out path of liverpool fans failing to take responsibility for their actions and desperately looking for anything or anyone else to blame. The fences contributed to the situation in so far as they were there, but again it's cause and effect. If hordes of liverpool fans hadn't been attempting to illegally force their way into the stadium there wouldn't have been a problem at all.

 

An easy get out? something the police failed to provide to the dying fans trapped behind those fences, does it ever cross your mind that the police are paid to provide a service? that once things started to go wrong they failed in their job? in fact their actions/inactions made the whole thing worse? you keep returning to the 'spark' that set everything in motion (as mentioned this 'spark' can be discussed ad nauseum and is probably the effect of more than one isolated thing).

 

 

 

 

Can I take it that by believing first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hilsborough you're talking about liverpool fans and nobody else? What about the first hand accounts of the Police? What can be seen on video of people trying to break into the ground because they'd arrived there without tickets with that very intention? Does that not count or contribute toward this incident?

So what were the police doing to prevent the few ticket-less fans trying to gain entry? surely they should of been prepared if indeed this was the case? instead they herded fans into sections that were already full, and the police inside the ground did f*** all when people we're asking for help through the fences.

 

To suggest it was a few is rubbish. There were many, many more than a few. In any case, nobody has said the Police didn't make mistakes so there's no point in you harping on about it, nobody has to be convinced of that so your point is irrelevant.

 

can you give me the exact percentage of ticketless fans that got into the ground?

So you admit that the police made mistakes... there's hope for humanity yet.

 

 

Dave is right. It always descends into blame but that's usually because some nob throws in a ridiculous line about the Police, as though they were 100% the cause of the incident, then the discussion kicks off again because they weren't 100% the cause. Anyone with half a brain would know that, but the public wants a scapegoat for these things.

So to question the police means you're a nob? nice.

 

I didn't say that, but if you feel misrepresentation is your best way forward then that's up to you.

 

misrepresentation? I'm sure you would like that if it was indeed the case.

 

what is a 'ridiculous' line in your (black) book then? is it 'ridiculous' to say that the police failed to do their job that day? that they failed to deal with an incident taking place before their very eyes?

 

and does critique of the police's role make me 'some nob'?

[Ronaldo]

Whether ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted, the death of innocent people due to total negligence of safety and indeed missing human decency. The authorities were responsible for the safety of all those fans inside that pen and they failed and massively so. They are to blame, no-one else.

 

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft

[magpie418]

Whether ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted, the death of innocent people due to total negligence of safety and indeed missing human decency. The authorities were responsible for the safety of all those fans inside that pen and they failed and massively so. They are to blame, no-one else.

 

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft

 

Jesus man, read it again.

 

He said ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted.

 

I've been both at times going to watch Newcastle (either UK or Europe), i'm sure i'm not the only one.

[magpie418]

The evidence is there for you to read, it's the best evidence available.  If you don't believe it nothing I or anyone else could say would make you change your mind.  Nothing that day was any different to any other semi final as far as hooliganism, riots or inter fan fighting goes. There wasn't any of that, so it's obvious that something else caused it.  Police have a duty of care and for many reasons, the main one being that the chief constable of the day had no experience of handling a match of that magnitude and had only been in the job for three weeks, they failed in their duty.  The police heirarchy then did  all they could, including lies and changing written evidence, to put the blame on fans.  It was easy wasn't it, after Heysel?

 

Lord Justice Taylor was a Geordie and a match going Newcastle fan in his youth.  I believe this gave him the insight to cut through all the police bullshit and produce an accurate report.

 

Can't say anything more than that really, spot on.

[biggs]

I well remember watching this on Grandstand & have also been in the Leppings Lane end a few times. There is a narrow walk up to it and once in there are narrow entries into the pens. It isn't well planned and needs good policing. We always take good numbers down there and the policing has always been a bit harsh. As a 16 year old I nearly wasn't allowed in for being "drunk", I hadn't had a drink & we'd been in a convoy escorted from the motorway by the police. They'd park you up and the fans were left to make their own way to the ground. Once at the ground the police were arrogant and disinterested in good policing.

 

All the ingredients for a disaster were already there. The police must take the major share of the blame for incompetence in not taking control. But as hard as it may be to accept there was a large number of Liverpool fans who turned up late, many without tickets and did what was normal; tried to force their way in. They clearly didn't mean and have any idea what was to happen, but it did happen.

 

If you had been to Hilsborough around that time you will know what that end was like. I'm not having a go at the fans but you unfortunately have to consider what contribution some of their actions led too.

Are you therefore saying that Liverpool fans were to blame for what happened at Hillsborough?

 

I'm saying that along with the Police they should accept some of the responsibility.

How can you come out with a comment like that when you were not there and never experienced it ffs,In the 80,s when the toon played at hillsborough on a saturday in the late summer when it was boiling hot and the match ended every toon fan headed for the exits into a paddock area behind the stand and i guess i was about 16 at the time but they kept the gates for the exits locked but the police and stewards did absolutley  nothing to help and there were literally thousands all crushing together waiting to get out and kids and a police woman had to be helped on to a low roof on a building on a outer wall to avoid injury , i will never forget that day as i was lifted off my feet in a wave of pushing and panic until the gates were opened . So dont come on here making throw away comments about something you know f*** all about

 

Errr, because I did come out with the comment? How does that answer your question?

 

Do you want me to embarrass you by asking you how you can lay all the blame on the Police when you were not there and never experienced it ffs?  It's an obvious response to your post.

 

It's probably difficult after a couple of cans, but I suggest you keep your insults to yourself if you want to have any credibility.

You have pretty much made yourself look like a tit in this thread and its best you stay away from a keyboard for a while instead of embarrassing yourself further .

[Ronaldo]

Whether ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted, the death of innocent people due to total negligence of safety and indeed missing human decency. The authorities were responsible for the safety of all those fans inside that pen and they failed and massively so. They are to blame, no-one else.

 

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft

 

Jesus man, read it again.

 

He said ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted.

 

I've been both at times going to watch Newcastle (either UK or Europe), i'm sure i'm not the only one.

 

bit confused as to why you've highlighted the word 'or' like it makes a difference.

 

You cannot put all of the blame on the authorities when the a minority of fans have acted irrepsonsiblity

[magpie418]

Whether ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted, the death of innocent people due to total negligence of safety and indeed missing human decency. The authorities were responsible for the safety of all those fans inside that pen and they failed and massively so. They are to blame, no-one else.

 

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft

 

Jesus man, read it again.

 

He said ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted.

 

I've been both at times going to watch Newcastle (either UK or Europe), i'm sure i'm not the only one.

 

bit confused as to why you've highlighted the word 'or' like it makes a difference.

 

You cannot put all of the blame on the authorities when the a minority of fans have acted irrepsonsiblity

 

Is 'black and white' different to 'black or white'? it makes a difference to me.

 

As for your second point, what is the point then of the authorities if they can't act on the irresponsibility of a minority of fans? what exactly is the job of the authorities?

 

 

[Ronaldo]

Whether ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted, the death of innocent people due to total negligence of safety and indeed missing human decency. The authorities were responsible for the safety of all those fans inside that pen and they failed and massively so. They are to blame, no-one else.

 

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft

 

Jesus man, read it again.

 

He said ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted.

 

I've been both at times going to watch Newcastle (either UK or Europe), i'm sure i'm not the only one.

 

bit confused as to why you've highlighted the word 'or' like it makes a difference.

 

You cannot put all of the blame on the authorities when the a minority of fans have acted irrepsonsiblity

 

Is 'black and white' different to 'black or white'? it makes a difference to me.

 

As for your second point, what is the point then of the authorities if they can't act on the irresponsibility of a minority of fans? what exactly is the job of the authorities?

 

 

 

the authorities didn't do their job properly, nobody is disuputing that. But that doesn't mean we run a red light then blame the traffic system. The police we're mostly but not soely to blame here

[magpie418]

 

the authorities didn't do their job properly, nobody is disuputing that.

 

Then we agree.

 

But that doesn't mean we run a red light then blame the traffic system.

 

Nor should we blame the rest of the traffic for that one car, as some on this thread appear to be doing.

 

The police we're mostly but not soely to blame here

 

Agreed, the footballing authorities that saw fit to erect fences around football grounds should take some of the blame too.

 

Like most football matches in those days there was always going to be a potential problem at this game, if all that was was some ticketless fans trying to gain entry, how did it escalate into the tragedy that it did? There are so many other factors that escalated what was at first something that should of been prepared for, and dealt with. (if indeed it was an inability to deal with ticketless fans that set the events in motion).

 

 

[Ronaldo]

A minority of Liverpool fans should take SOME of the blame for Hillsbrough and it's extremely hypocritical for the entire LFC support to point the finger at the police and only the police.

 

the victims can never be part of the cause, it's always the case. The police and footballing authorities should take the bulk of the blame, that i'm not disputing for a second, but are they aren't the only causes here, absolutely not in a million years.

[magpie418]

A minority of Liverpool fans should take SOME of the blame for Hillsbrough and it's extremely hypocritical for the entire LFC support to point the finger at the police and only the police.

 

the victims can never be part of the cause, it's always the case. The police and footballing authorities should take the bulk of the blame, that i'm not disputing for a second, but are they aren't the only causes here, absolutely not in a million years.

 

Well it's all about how much effect these ticketless fans actually had on an already badly organised & mismanaged event, isn't it?

 

The actions/inactions of the police/footballing authorities both before, during and after the event, along with the vile *reporting* of various media outlets, eclipse's any finger pointing at a small section of fans who may/may-not of contributed to the disaster, in my book.

 

But each to their own.

 

 

 

 

[Guest toonlass]

A minority of Liverpool fans should take SOME of the blame for Hillsbrough and it's extremely hypocritical for the entire LFC support to point the finger at the police and only the police.

 

the victims can never be part of the cause, it's always the case. The police and footballing authorities should take the bulk of the blame, that i'm not disputing for a second, but are they aren't the only causes here, absolutely not in a million years.

 

So you are saying a minority of supporters should be blamed, despite the Taylor report saying that it was not the fault of the Liverpool supporters. I suppose someone who has limited knowledge of the event must over-rule an enquiry that lasted 31 days which heard all kinds of evidence and was the reason behind significant changes in British football.

[madras]

A minority of Liverpool fans should take SOME of the blame for Hillsbrough and it's extremely hypocritical for the entire LFC support to point the finger at the police and only the police.

 

the victims can never be part of the cause, it's always the case. The police and footballing authorities should take the bulk of the blame, that i'm not disputing for a second, but are they aren't the only causes here, absolutely not in a million years.

 

Well it's all about how much effect these ticketless fans actually had on an already badly organised & mismanaged event, isn't it?

 

The actions/inactions of the police/footballing authorities both before, during and after the event, along with the vile *reporting* of various media outlets, eclipse's any finger pointing at a small section of fans who may/may-not of contributed to the disaster, in my book.

 

But each to their own.

 

 

 

 

it does eclipse it. no-one is saying any diffefrent,everyone is saying that, but (you just knew that "but" was coming didncha ?) after having witnessed with my own peepers the tactics of liverpool fans to gain illegal access to grounds i have little alternative but to add this into the blame.

 

note....not all liverpool fans but enough to start in motion, or add to, the chain of events.