Hillsborough disaster

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

crux of the matter mate, actual numbers vs expected - i'd love to know

 

Had the police set up the same cordoning system as they had the year before then the ticketless fans would not have made it to the turnstiles. However the official report done on the disaster made the point that it was not the ticketless fans which made up the vast numbers outside the ground at the time the gate was opened but the late arrivals of coaches and cars which had been held up on the motorway. On a normal day the arrival of the coaches would have been staggered but they arrived all at once and this meant a huge number of fans (the majority with tickets) were forced into a small area outside the turnstiles where the crushing started.

[Mistle17]

Just on a bit of a tangent, finally found the poem I read on an Everton forum last year. A bit off-topic for a Newcastle forum, but I thought it was brilliant all the same, and it seems to stick in my mind whenever Hillsborough is mentioned:

 

"I bought a scarf at the match today, you know, the way you do.

The bloke at the stall said: 'Which one our kid, the Red one, or The Blue'?

 

Well I've followed the Blue's most of me life, since I was a little boy

And school dragged on all week you know, but on Saturday, what joy.

 

Me mate Billy and me would kick a ball about down Scottie Road, and the streets all around.

Though he was Red, and I was Blue, we'd dream of our own hallowed grounds.

 

Well the years rolled by and we were still footy daft, and we'd meet for a Bevv'y at night.

You'll never walk alone, Billy would sing to me, laughing, with all his might.

 

Then Hillsborough came, and my mate Billy died, in a special kind of hell.

As the Sun shone on untouched turf, my mate Billy fell.

 

I watched the telly that night alone. Sat there numb and just cried.

The game had ended, before it began, for Billy and the rest who died.

 

I bought a Scarf at the match today, and I turned to the bloke and said:

'My mate Billy would be 30 today, I'll take two mate, a Blue one...And a Red'."

 

Thats beautiful. So sad though..

[NE5]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

crux of the matter mate, actual numbers vs expected - i'd love to know

 

Had the police set up the same cordoning system as they had the year before then the ticketless fans would not have made it to the turnstiles. However the official report done on the disaster made the point that it was not the ticketless fans which made up the vast numbers outside the ground at the time the gate was opened but the late arrivals of coaches and cars which had been held up on the motorway. On a normal day the arrival of the coaches would have been staggered but they arrived all at once and this meant a huge number of fans (the majority with tickets) were forced into a small area outside the turnstiles where the crushing started.

 

so you are saying that the police were to blame for not setting up  a cordon and thousands of fans that travelled to the game without tickets weren't to blame for being there in the first place ?

 

I didn't realise the police forced them to go to Sheffield on that day.

 

 

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

crux of the matter mate, actual numbers vs expected - i'd love to know

 

Had the police set up the same cordoning system as they had the year before then the ticketless fans would not have made it to the turnstiles. However the official report done on the disaster made the point that it was not the ticketless fans which made up the vast numbers outside the ground at the time the gate was opened but the late arrivals of coaches and cars which had been held up on the motorway. On a normal day the arrival of the coaches would have been staggered but they arrived all at once and this meant a huge number of fans (the majority with tickets) were forced into a small area outside the turnstiles where the crushing started.

 

so the fans with tickets were delayed, who was inside?  what is the estimate of available tickets vs actual fans vs space in the ground? 

 

can you answer any specifics?

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

toonlass, as an obvious fountain of knowledge here is the general consensus that the number of fans at the game was within the limits of the stadium?

 

Had the fans with tickets for other parts of the ground been allowed to go to the stands they were supposed to be in, and had the police in the control room been watching pens 3 and 4 properly then there should have been enough room. As it was while the fans were allowed to stream into pens 3 and 4 behind the goal despite them being full to capacity, the pens either side of 3 and 4 were relatively empty, but the people trapped in the central pens 3 and 4 could not make it into the adjacent pens as there was a 7 foot spiked fence keeping them in. By simply diverting the fans who escaped the crush outside the ground, when the police were instructed by the Chief Super to open the gate, into the side pens and not allowing them to walk through the tunnel into the central pens the whole thing could have been avoided.

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

toonlass, as an obvious fountain of knowledge here is the general consensus that the number of fans at the game was within the limits of the stadium?

 

Had the fans with tickets for other parts of the ground been allowed to go to the stands they were supposed to be in, and had the police in the control room been watching pens 3 and 4 properly then there should have been enough room. As it was while the fans were allowed to stream into pens 3 and 4 behind the goal despite them being full to capacity, the pens either side of 3 and 4 were relatively empty, but the people trapped in the central pens 3 and 4 could not make it into the adjacent pens as there was a 7 foot spiked fence keeping them in. By simply diverting the fans who escaped the crush outside the ground, when the police were instructed by the Chief Super to open the gate, into the side pens and not allowing them to walk through the tunnel into the central pens the whole thing could have been avoided.

 

so you don't know how many surplus fans there were then?

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

crux of the matter mate, actual numbers vs expected - i'd love to know

 

Had the police set up the same cordoning system as they had the year before then the ticketless fans would not have made it to the turnstiles. However the official report done on the disaster made the point that it was not the ticketless fans which made up the vast numbers outside the ground at the time the gate was opened but the late arrivals of coaches and cars which had been held up on the motorway. On a normal day the arrival of the coaches would have been staggered but they arrived all at once and this meant a huge number of fans (the majority with tickets) were forced into a small area outside the turnstiles where the crushing started.

 

so you are saying that the police were to blame for not setting up  a cordon and thousands of fans that travelled to the game without tickets weren't to blame for being there in the first place ?

 

I didn't realise the police forced them to go to Sheffield on that day.

 

 

 

Yes the police were to blame, they failed to police the outside of the ground and the areas around it properly. Where did you get that number of ticketless fans from? Are you disagreeing with Lord Justice Taylor who found that it wasn't the fans to blame but the unorganised and inexperienced policing of the match? Would love to know how you came to your conclusions seeing that you were not at the enquiry and wouldn't have heard all the evidence and seen the CCTV footage. Have you even read the Taylor report in full?

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ?

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

exactly - you can't take the context out of this disaster - reading the report and quoting it means fuck all

[Tooj]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

I'm firmly reading this thread from an observers point of view and I must admit that it makes from good reading by yourself. But there's no need for the petty remark about Shepherd. If you want to debate then do so about the subject at hand, rather than making childish remarks that are nothing to do with it at all.

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

[Tooj]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

At least we now know who put out the infamous FACT statemement on the club website.

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

I'm firmly reading this thread from an observers point of view and I must admit that it makes from good reading by yourself. But there's no need for the petty remark about Shepherd. If you want to debate then do so about the subject at hand, rather than making childish remarks that are nothing to do with it at all.

 

I apologise for the Shepherd remark but I anticipate NE5 coming into this and making it into some kind of "I know better that you cos I was at games in the 70's" argument. Maybe if he looks at the facts of the matter as they are, and remembers that 96 people died and over 750 people were injured because of bad policing (and that has been proven) then there will be nothing to argue about.

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

At least we now know who put out the infamous FACT statemement on the club website.

 

NE5 started it 

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

 

Im simply going off what the enquiry found. Wouldn't it not be easier for a government enquiry, in those days of hooligan rife football, to blame the football hooligans than there own police? The simple evidence showed that the number of ticketless fans (and fans with forged tickets) was not as great as rumours made out.

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

Edited reply as I think one or two things could be explained better :

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling football supporters for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict, particularly as one of the main recommendations was all seater stadiums with more control over the movement of supporters inside football grounds and ticket allocations. Not all these government inquiries are as black and white as you think. In my opinion, this particular recommendation was way over the top and the atmosphere and the game as we knew it has suffered accordingly.

 

And the fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

I never said there were no ticketless Liverpool fans at the game. BUT had the police set up the cordons that they had the previous year when both teams met which weeded out the ticketless fans, and therefore stopped them getting to the front of the bottleneck at the turnstile then it would have eased the congestion.

 

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

 

Im simply going off what the enquiry found. Wouldn't it not be easier for a government enquiry, in those days of hooligan rife football, to blame the football hooligans than there own police? The simple evidence showed that the number of ticketless fans (and fans with forged tickets) was not as great as rumours made out.

 

gonna have to push you i'm afraid as you won't stop quoting the report verbatim:

 

how many did the report say?  lets bear in mind the number of ticketless fans that travel to EUROPEAN games these days (70,000 celtic fans in seville iirc) are you honestly gonna sit there and tell me that there couldn't have been dangerous levels of fans at hillsborough?  one hour away from liverpool...!

 

or quote the report which MUST, given the credibility you've built up for it, have estimated this simple fact, no?

[NE5]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

 

I think she is. She also forgets the FACT that Liverpool playing in an FA Cup Semi Final was also or shouldn't have been such a big deal to them at that time ....... yet TOO MANY of them congregated that day. More than usual, would be the case ie more than expected.

 

As toonlass is taking this government enquiry as gospel, I wonder what her opinion is of other government enquiries, for instance the Brazilian shot in London by the police for instance ?

 

Toonlass - you HAVE been wrong on other things, particularly the "despicable" Shepherd and the notion that playing regularly in europe is "shit" yet you still find excuses for the man who is going to relegate us and take us to the depths of Leeds unless he can find a buyer. And I don't believe you are an old time supporter anymore. Sorry like. 

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

 

I think she is. She also forgets the FACT that Liverpool playing in an FA Cup Semi Final was also or shouldn't have been such a big deal to them at that time ....... yet TOO MANY of them congregated that day. More than usual, would be the case ie more than expected.

 

As toonlass is taking this government enquiry as gospel, I wonder what her opinion is of other government enquiries, for instance the Brazilian shot in London by the police for instance ?

 

Toonlass - you HAVE been wrong on other things, particularly the "despicable" Shepherd and the notion that playing regularly in europe is "shit" yet you still find excuses for the man who is going to relegate us and take us to the depths of Leeds unless he can find a buyer. And I don't believe you are an old time supporter anymore. Sorry like. 

 

dude, no need!  

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

 

I think she is. She also forgets the FACT that Liverpool playing in an FA Cup Semi Final was also or shouldn't have been such a big deal to them at that time ....... yet TOO MANY of them congregated that day. More than usual, would be the case ie more than expected.

 

As toonlass is taking this government enquiry as gospel, I wonder what her opinion is of other government enquiries, for instance the Brazilian shot in London by the police for instance ?

 

Toonlass - you HAVE been wrong on other things, particularly the "despicable" Shepherd and the notion that playing regularly in europe is "shit" yet you still find excuses for the man who is going to relegate us and take us to the depths of Leeds unless he can find a buyer. And I don't believe you are an old time supporter anymore. Sorry like. 

 

 

Disgusting that you are going to hijack a thread which should be a tribute to the people who died at this disaster, and those who still live with the horror and use it to start your old, old arguments AGAIN! Go back to your own thread and harp on there NE5.

 

Back on topic, I will try and find exact numbers if you want Mojo, but I don't know them off the top of my head.

[NE5]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

 

I think she is. She also forgets the FACT that Liverpool playing in an FA Cup Semi Final was also or shouldn't have been such a big deal to them at that time ....... yet TOO MANY of them congregated that day. More than usual, would be the case ie more than expected.

 

As toonlass is taking this government enquiry as gospel, I wonder what her opinion is of other government enquiries, for instance the Brazilian shot in London by the police for instance ?

 

Toonlass - you HAVE been wrong on other things, particularly the "despicable" Shepherd and the notion that playing regularly in europe is "shit" yet you still find excuses for the man who is going to relegate us and take us to the depths of Leeds unless he can find a buyer. And I don't believe you are an old time supporter anymore. Sorry like. 

 

 

Disgusting that you are going to hijack a thread which should be a tribute to the people who died at this disaster, and those who still live with the horror and use it to start your old, old arguments AGAIN! Go back to your own thread and harp on there NE5.

 

Back on topic, I will try and find exact numbers if you want Mojo, but I don't know them off the top of my head.

 

You mentioned Freddie Shepherd, not me. See.......you're wrong again.

 

I've been to Hillsborough, I've been in that end of the ground too, before the disaster. So don't bother spouting that crap to me.

 

 

[mrmojorisin75]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

 

I think she is. She also forgets the FACT that Liverpool playing in an FA Cup Semi Final was also or shouldn't have been such a big deal to them at that time ....... yet TOO MANY of them congregated that day. More than usual, would be the case ie more than expected.

 

As toonlass is taking this government enquiry as gospel, I wonder what her opinion is of other government enquiries, for instance the Brazilian shot in London by the police for instance ?

 

Toonlass - you HAVE been wrong on other things, particularly the "despicable" Shepherd and the notion that playing regularly in europe is "shit" yet you still find excuses for the man who is going to relegate us and take us to the depths of Leeds unless he can find a buyer. And I don't believe you are an old time supporter anymore. Sorry like. 

 

 

Disgusting that you are going to hijack a thread which should be a tribute to the people who died at this disaster, and those who still live with the horror and use it to start your old, old arguments AGAIN! Go back to your own thread and harp on there NE5.

 

Back on topic, I will try and find exact numbers if you want Mojo, but I don't know them off the top of my head.

 

yeah if they exist they'll essentially prove one sides point either way...the capacity of the ground and available tickets that day is known...no-one here has outlined the actual numbers present nor do i find it likely they'll be able to

 

what i find massively unlikely is that that numbers of fans fell within the capacity of the ground and the disaster still happened

[Guest toonlass]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling footballers for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict ? Such as the recommendations included all seater stadiums, and better control over football fans and their movements.

 

Fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

FACT The Taylor enquiry found the police to be at fault, surely a government ordered report would have been biased against the football fans and for the police had it wanted to cover anything up!

 

FACT The Health and Safety executive report, the data from the electronic monitoring system plus eye witness accounts blow your theory out of the water. They all showed that there was not an excessive amount of ticketless fans.

 

FACT You claim that I am wrong and continue to be wrong. Any factual evidence to support this or is that just your deluded opinion NE5?

 

i'll be fucking astounded if this is true - sheffield is what?  30-45 minutes from liverpool?  an hour?  you telling me in the heady days of liverpool ruling the football planet that "a few" tickeless fans made the trip for the semi final of an fa cup that was still held in high regard in those days?

 

are you?  seriously?

 

I think she is. She also forgets the FACT that Liverpool playing in an FA Cup Semi Final was also or shouldn't have been such a big deal to them at that time ....... yet TOO MANY of them congregated that day. More than usual, would be the case ie more than expected.

 

As toonlass is taking this government enquiry as gospel, I wonder what her opinion is of other government enquiries, for instance the Brazilian shot in London by the police for instance ?

 

Toonlass - you HAVE been wrong on other things, particularly the "despicable" Shepherd and the notion that playing regularly in europe is "shit" yet you still find excuses for the man who is going to relegate us and take us to the depths of Leeds unless he can find a buyer. And I don't believe you are an old time supporter anymore. Sorry like. 

 

 

Disgusting that you are going to hijack a thread which should be a tribute to the people who died at this disaster, and those who still live with the horror and use it to start your old, old arguments AGAIN! Go back to your own thread and harp on there NE5.

 

Back on topic, I will try and find exact numbers if you want Mojo, but I don't know them off the top of my head.

 

yeah if they exist they'll essentially prove one sides point either way...the capacity of the ground and available tickets that day is known...no-one here has outlined the actual numbers present nor do i find it likely they'll be able to

 

what i find massively unlikely is that that numbers of fans fell within the capacity of the ground and the disaster still happened

 

This is directly from the Taylor report. Make of it what you will, but it states that the Leppings Lane end was not over-capacitated had the fans been spread out. It does not state how many ticketless fans were in the ground by numbers, but it does have how many people entered the ground recorded by the electronic equipment and through the HSE counting them on a video.

 

 

Were Fans Without Tickets a Major Factor in the Build-Up?

200. It has become a fact of football life that fans do turn up at all-ticket matches without tickets. It is not

possible to give an accurate figure or even a reliable estimate of the number without tickets on 15 April. Police

estimates varied from about 200 to about 2,000. There were certainly frequent requests for tickets or "spares"

during the hours before the build-up. Many of those warned off by the police were seen to return to the area.

Some were hanging about on the bridge. Again, however, the police witnesses who most impressed me did not

consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of

evidence.

201. First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at

a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing

pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could

account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40

pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.

202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses

by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed

through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of

10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.

However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film

and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644

passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst

gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering

through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be

rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there

would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do

suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

[Shearergol]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental fuck up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive fuck up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them fucked up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield fucked up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking shite NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

Edited reply as I think one or two things could be explained better :

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking shite, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling football supporters for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict, particularly as one of the main recommendations was all seater stadiums with more control over the movement of supporters inside football grounds and ticket allocations. Not all these government inquiries are as black and white as you think. In my opinion, this particular recommendation was way over the top and the atmosphere and the game as we knew it has suffered accordingly.

 

And the fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

I never said there were no ticketless Liverpool fans at the game. BUT had the police set up the cordons that they had the previous year when both teams met which weeded out the ticketless fans, and therefore stopped them getting to the front of the bottleneck at the turnstile then it would have eased the congestion.

 

 

Hang on, you're saying that the ticketless fans had no impact on the disaster, but the disaster was caused by the police not setting up cordons to weed out the ticketless fans?

 

How exactly does that make sense?

[Guest Scouseman]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental f*** up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive f*** up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them f***ed up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield f***ed up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking s**** NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

Edited reply as I think one or two things could be explained better :

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking s****, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling football supporters for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict, particularly as one of the main recommendations was all seater stadiums with more control over the movement of supporters inside football grounds and ticket allocations. Not all these government inquiries are as black and white as you think. In my opinion, this particular recommendation was way over the top and the atmosphere and the game as we knew it has suffered accordingly.

 

And the fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

I never said there were no ticketless Liverpool fans at the game. BUT had the police set up the cordons that they had the previous year when both teams met which weeded out the ticketless fans, and therefore stopped them getting to the front of the bottleneck at the turnstile then it would have eased the congestion.

 

 

Hang on, you're saying that the ticketless fans had no impact on the disaster, but the disaster was caused by the police not setting up cordons to weed out the ticketless fans?

 

How exactly does that make sense?

 

I don't think even Blefuscu realised just how few ticketless fans were actually inside the ground, good a job though she's done in interpreting Justice Taylors report.  BTW, both the government of the day and Liverpool fans expected a whitewash of the police.  All credit to him that he strove for the truth to the best of his ability.

 

It's actually irrelevent how many ticketless fans or even drunken fans were there that day because there was nothing unusual in that for most football matches, certainly a semi final, these things were all part and parcel of a match and nothing new for the police to handle, it was part of their job, it would have been excpected by most officers there.  You then have to look at the organisational facts of that day and the general lack of leadership.

[Shearergol]

magpie & toonlass know a heap more about this than me so i'd like to ask:

 

who at that time was responsible for monitoring the numbers who were in the ground at any given time?  simple question, the police or the club/turnstiles?

 

 

Both, the turnstiles counted how many people went in, but the Chief Super David Duckenfield was stood in the control room with CCTV which could zoom into the Leppings Lane end so close that it could see the colour of a person's eyes. He could directly see how full each pen was and control how many fans went into which areas. Once the gate was opened that let people into Hillsbrough the turnstiles could not count how many people were in the ground could they? The fans had been allowed to bypass the turnstiles because of the crush outside which in previous years had been controlled by cordons and people arriving at different times, however the delayed traffic all arrived together and so there were many more people trying to get into the ground all at once before the match begun. It would have been obvious to the Chief Super that pens 3 and 4 were already full due to his access to the CCTV footage and previously to that game when the pens were full police and stewards were placed at the entrance of the tunnel to stop fans going through it into the pens and to direct the fans to the side pens. On that day the police were unable to explain why there was no-one placed at the tunnel to ensure that no more fans went into pens 3 and 4 and were instead directed into the relatively empty pens either side.

 

thanks

 

out if interest what are you saying throughout all this?  i know you blame the police but are you on the monumental f*** up side or do you see something more nefarious?

 

Personally I see it as a massive f*** up on the part of the police, who regarded football fans at the time as nothing but hooligans and bar a few exceptions failed at their jobs. There were a handful of young coppers who tried to help, but the majority of them f***ed up. And the Chief Super David Duckenfield f***ed up biggest of all. The organisation of policing the game on the day was flawed from start to finish.

 

fact is, the police at Hillsborough were well practised at handling big footballl grounds, this ground had played host to FA Cup Semi Finals for many years, including other Liverpool games.

 

Blaming the police for failing to control what was an extortionate amount of Liverpool supporters, is akin to blaming them for failing to control a demonstration in a city centre - anywhere - where too many people turn up in proportion to the amount of police present.

 

Nobody seems to blame the vast amount of Liverpool fans who turned up for this game without tickets. What was their intention ? To batter down the gates or sit outside the stadium listening peacefully to the game on radio 5 ?

 

 

 

Once again you are talking s**** NE5. The Chief Super in charge of the game had never overseen a football match before. Therefore he did not have vast experience in running the situation. The police failed to set up the cordons that stopped ticketless fans getting anywhere near the turnstiles as they had in previous years. The Liverpool fans were allocated the Leppings Lane end of the ground which had a smaller capacity, the previous year they were in the other end. The police ignored the delay that the motorway roadworks and the rail delays caused which meant that many fans arrived all at the same time. The police did not allow Liverpool fans into the other parts of the grounds where they had tickets for and forced them into the Leppings Lane end, increasing the amount of people in that section.

 

Have you even bothered to read the Taylor report or is there not enough mentions of how wonderful Freddy Shepherd was as a chairman in it for you to take any interest. You probably know much more than someone who held a 31 day enquiry and heard evidence and saw CCTV footage of the whole incident. The number of drunken and ticketless fans made no difference to the situation, that was the outcome from a 31 day enquiry which found the police at fault. You want to argue with the actual facts then write to Lord Justice Taylor instead of spouting bollocks that you have plucked from thin air.

 

Edited reply as I think one or two things could be explained better :

 

pretty odd you accuse me of talking s****, when you have been wrong about everything, and continue to be wrong.

 

Your daft comment about Freddy Shepherd [and I'm sure you'll come along and blame me somewhere for mentioning him as usual]. Are you really 34, or are you pissed and/or obsessed ?

 

A point of that time, is that the government had been wanting to impose identity cards on travelling football supporters for a number of years previous to Hillsborough, since the Heysel stadium disaster in fact, which peculiarly also involved Liverpool supporters. You don't think its possible that their wasn't political influence in this verdict, particularly as one of the main recommendations was all seater stadiums with more control over the movement of supporters inside football grounds and ticket allocations. Not all these government inquiries are as black and white as you think. In my opinion, this particular recommendation was way over the top and the atmosphere and the game as we knew it has suffered accordingly.

 

And the fact also is there WERE Liverpool fans who travelled to that game without tickets, whether you like it or not.

 

I never said there were no ticketless Liverpool fans at the game. BUT had the police set up the cordons that they had the previous year when both teams met which weeded out the ticketless fans, and therefore stopped them getting to the front of the bottleneck at the turnstile then it would have eased the congestion.

 

 

Hang on, you're saying that the ticketless fans had no impact on the disaster, but the disaster was caused by the police not setting up cordons to weed out the ticketless fans?

 

How exactly does that make sense?

 

I don't think even Blefuscu realised just how few ticketless fans were actually inside the ground, good a job though she's done in interpreting Justice Taylors report.  BTW, both the government of the day and Liverpool fans expected a whitewash of the police.  All credit to him that he strove for the truth to the best of his ability.

 

It's actually irrelevent how many ticketless fans or even drunken fans were there that day because there was nothing unusual in that for most football matches, certainly a semi final, these things were all part and parcel of a match and nothing new for the police to handle, it was part of their job, it would have been excpected by most officers there.  You then have to look at the organisational facts of that day and the general lack of leadership.

 

But that's exactly why people are trying to make the point that it wasn't 100% the fault of the police. If the ticketless fans weren't there, the problem wouldn't have been there either. To say that it was part and parcel of the game is irrelevent.

 

It's like saying that it's fine when people dive for penalties because everyone else does it.

 

If you had to name a team in the 80's which was famous for ticketless fans getting into games, it would be Liverpool. OK, the police should have been more ready for it, but they wouldn't have to have been if the ticketless fans stayed at home and watched the tv.