ChezGiven Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Aye, story of the century paddock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. ashley would lose massivly on administration as he is not only by far the major creditor but the ammount he'd lose on his purchase. he'd be much better off selling at a loss than allowing administrators to sell it off at even more of a loss. nowt about NUFC would surprise me though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Llambias on Radio Newcastle SOON. No doubt to rubbish these stories of Admin. Has it been on yet ? No idea if the (COMPLETELY LEGAL) net stream is lagged behind live broadcast but they just played Llambias rubbishing them. and he said "we are fighting for releagtion" freudian slip ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thespence Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. Not true as such as all debts that are classed as " football debts" have to be paid in full. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. ashley would lose massivly on administration as he is not only by far the major creditor but the ammount he'd lose on his purchase. he'd be much better off selling at a loss than allowing administrators to sell it off at even more of a loss. nowt about NUFC would surprise me though. No-one's buying, so it's difficult for him to sell a club that's losing millions every season. Depending on how big the mortgage is, he could have covered a significant amount of the purchase price with it. He's £8m up in transfers. He's taken 3 years of season ticket cash up front from many fans. Considering the players (that he couldn't offload) and property the club own, there'd be a canny amount that came back from that too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. The club didn't take out a mortgage, I am no financial expert but a debenture (which is what was filed, not a mortgage) is more like a bond. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. ashley would lose massivly on administration as he is not only by far the major creditor but the ammount he'd lose on his purchase. he'd be much better off selling at a loss than allowing administrators to sell it off at even more of a loss. nowt about NUFC would surprise me though. No-one's buying, so it's difficult for him to sell a club that's losing millions every season. Depending on how big the mortgage is, he could have covered a significant amount of the purchase price with it. He's £8m up in transfers. He's taken 3 years of season ticket cash up front from many fans. Considering the players (that he couldn't offload) and property the club own, there'd be a canny amount that came back from that too. if nobodies buying then all the administrator will do is liquidate the assets and he'll basically take as big a hit as it is possible to take. rmember it'll be a leeds style fire sale. ha hasn't taken as much up front as you think. (set up a poll and see how many have pais the lot up front and how many are paying monthly). 8mill up in transfers but that is company money. i don't think he's allowed to just walk off with it. (any of those accountants around to clarify this ?) as happened with leeds the club would go as a going concern so the value of the property wouldn't really come into it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NG32 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If we stay up I think mike ashley should flash his minge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. Not true as such as all debts that are classed as " football debts" have to be paid in full. what are the "football debts" ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. The club didn't take out a mortgage, I am no financial expert but a debenture (which is what was filed, not a mortgage) is more like a bond. So essentially, it could just be the loan agreement between the club and Ashley? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Haven't read the article or the thread, but can someone give me an idea of why Ashley would want to do this? Anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. The club didn't take out a mortgage, I am no financial expert but a debenture (which is what was filed, not a mortgage) is more like a bond. So essentially, it could just be the loan agreement between the club and Ashley? I'm really not sure, but I think it may be a possibility. I know f*** all about finance but do know that a debenture and mortgage are different. HMR&C say Where a company borrows or owes money, the lender or creditor, normally a bank, may secure the loan or debt by taking out a charge on the company's assets. The charge is recorded in a legal document called a debenture and is registered with the Registrar of Companies. A debenture is issued by a company as security for the loan of a fixed sum of money or as evidence of a debt. The debenture contains a promise to pay the amount recorded in it together with commercial interest. The lender or creditor becomes a secured creditor and is known as the debenture holder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. ashley would lose massivly on administration as he is not only by far the major creditor but the ammount he'd lose on his purchase. he'd be much better off selling at a loss than allowing administrators to sell it off at even more of a loss. nowt about NUFC would surprise me though. No-one's buying, so it's difficult for him to sell a club that's losing millions every season. Depending on how big the mortgage is, he could have covered a significant amount of the purchase price with it. He's £8m up in transfers. He's taken 3 years of season ticket cash up front from many fans. Considering the players (that he couldn't offload) and property the club own, there'd be a canny amount that came back from that too. if nobodies buying then all the administrator will do is liquidate the assets and he'll basically take as big a hit as it is possible to take. rmember it'll be a leeds style fire sale. ha hasn't taken as much up front as you think. (set up a poll and see how many have pais the lot up front and how many are paying monthly). 8mill up in transfers but that is company money. i don't think he's allowed to just walk off with it. (any of those accountants around to clarify this ?) as happened with leeds the club would go as a going concern so the value of the property wouldn't really come into it. Perhaps. I was only responding to the fact that it's "plainly ridiculous" which I disagree with. gggg was saying "We've got massively expensive assets and huge income", but the net income of the club has been an annual loss in the tens of millions....and those expensive assets look a lot less valuable in the championship. Either way I reckon Ashley would be left with a loss. I don't know the how it works out, but if he can walk away now with a £100M loss, or put in another 3 years of thankless work and end up walking away with a £75M loss, who's to say he wouldn't want rid of the ball and chain sooner rather than later? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. The club took out a new mortgage in November 2008, so there's some bank we owe money to who'd probably want what they can get while we have £60M of on field assets rather than in three or four months time when it's £10M. I don't know the case, but Ashley is trying to sink JJB (a company he owns a fifth of) which seemed strange to me...until I realised all the cheap real estate it would leave for Sports Direct to buy. I don't know the truth or motives, but I'm not dismissing the story out of hand. ashley would lose massivly on administration as he is not only by far the major creditor but the ammount he'd lose on his purchase. he'd be much better off selling at a loss than allowing administrators to sell it off at even more of a loss. nowt about NUFC would surprise me though. No-one's buying, so it's difficult for him to sell a club that's losing millions every season. Depending on how big the mortgage is, he could have covered a significant amount of the purchase price with it. He's £8m up in transfers. He's taken 3 years of season ticket cash up front from many fans. Considering the players (that he couldn't offload) and property the club own, there'd be a canny amount that came back from that too. if nobodies buying then all the administrator will do is liquidate the assets and he'll basically take as big a hit as it is possible to take. rmember it'll be a leeds style fire sale. ha hasn't taken as much up front as you think. (set up a poll and see how many have pais the lot up front and how many are paying monthly). 8mill up in transfers but that is company money. i don't think he's allowed to just walk off with it. (any of those accountants around to clarify this ?) as happened with leeds the club would go as a going concern so the value of the property wouldn't really come into it. Perhaps. I was only responding to the fact that it's "plainly ridiculous" which I disagree with. gggg was saying "We've got massively expensive assets and huge income", but the net income of the club has been an annual loss in the tens of millions....and those expensive assets look a lot less valuable in the championship. Either way I reckon Ashley would be left with a loss. I don't know the how it works out, but if he can walk away now with a £100M loss, or put in another 3 years of thankless work and end up walking away with a £75M loss, who's to say he wouldn't want rid of the ball and chain sooner rather than later? i agree he'll be left with a loss but,purely my opinion, administration would mean bigger losses. unfortunatly as this is NUFC the more it is plainly ridiculous, the more it is likely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Couldn't he write his losses off against tax anyway? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Couldn't he write his losses off against tax anyway? need the accountants in for that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thespence Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. Not true as such as all debts that are classed as " football debts" have to be paid in full. what are the "football debts" ? If you owe any of the following: (i) The Association (ii) The Football Association Premier League Limited (iii) The Football League Limited (iv) The Football Conference Limited (v) The Northern Premier League Limited (vi) The Southern Football League Limited (vii) The Isthmian Football League Limited (viii) Any member club of any of the organisations listed in (i) to (vii) above (ix) Any full-time or part-time employee of a member club, as defined in (viii) above, or former full-time or part-time employee of such a member club, in respect of sums due to such person by way of arrears of remuneration or expenses (x) The Professional Footballers’ Association (xi) The Football Foundation (xii) Any Affiliated Association (xiii) Any other affiliated clubs or leagues. From TheFa.com Also a bit at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7741859.stm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Llambias and co. have learned their lesson about communication as they said they had, then they will come out and deny it. But they probably won't. They don't need to deny anything as it's plainly ridiculous. We've got massively expensive assets and huge income. Even Leeds who were in a far worse situation than us and every other club in history only went into admin in 2007 because they were going to be relegated to the third division anyway, that was a full 5 years after it went tits up, 3 years after they were relegated from the Premiership and years after they had sold all of their assets. Creditors are a lot more eager to get their money back ASAP in the current economic cimate though aren't they? the main cerditor is the person he'll get burned most by going into administration. remembering that if they go into administration any creditors will be unlikely to get anywhere near what they are owed. Not true as such as all debts that are classed as " football debts" have to be paid in full. what are the "football debts" ? If you owe any of the following: (i) The Association (ii) The Football Association Premier League Limited (iii) The Football League Limited (iv) The Football Conference Limited (v) The Northern Premier League Limited (vi) The Southern Football League Limited (vii) The Isthmian Football League Limited (viii) Any member club of any of the organisations listed in (i) to (vii) above (ix) Any full-time or part-time employee of a member club, as defined in (viii) above, or former full-time or part-time employee of such a member club, in respect of sums due to such person by way of arrears of remuneration or expenses (x) The Professional Footballers’ Association (xi) The Football Foundation (xii) Any Affiliated Association (xiii) Any other affiliated clubs or leagues. From TheFa.com Also a bit at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7741859.stm probably one of the reasons why ashley took most of the clubs debts onto himself. i'll bet the club owes nowt or very little to any of those. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Administration doesn't make sense in MA's position at all, unless it is being mooted by a third party. Without really looking inside the company we can never know who that might be.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Administration doesn't make sense in MA's position at all, unless it is being mooted by a third party. Without really looking inside the company we can never know who that might be.. Dave Whelan's asking price for dropping his purchase of JJB property that will keep the company afloat and competitive? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Haven't read the article or the thread, but can someone give me an idea of why Ashley would want to do this? Anyone? All the club debt is to ashley. When a business goes into administration, its because the debt is preventing the business from operating (if the underlying business is fine). If the underlying business is fucked, it goes bankrupt but with revenues and customers and sales and TV money etc, then the problem may be that servicing the debt turns us into a permanent loss-maker. There are basically two types of business insolvency, cash-flow (you dont have the readies to pay debt) and balance sheet (you have negative net assets). Administration is used to manage the debts under more favourable terms, this might be useful if the revenue stream falls off. Ashley can appoint one without going to court but the creditors of NUFC can apply to have one appointed. The administrator must act in the interests of all the creditors and attempt to rescue the company as a going concern. As for the broader 'why' i cant find any reasons to want to start next season on -15 points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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