3.5 Year Contracts Being Dished Out

[junkhead]

I have no complaints over this particular issue. Simpson and Routledge won't be on huge wages, we can cope even with 5 year contracts even. They're also young enough to have a resell value. Two year contract isn't enough, cause in reality it means renegotiation of the contract after only an year. And guess if the player and his advisors would settle for a new contract on the same wage..

 

As long as we stop giving 40-50-60k to players who have no motivation to play for us, we're safe..

[LiquidAK]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

[madras]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

[Thespence]

Routledge & MW both joined new clubs in the summer they are hardly going to jack in long deal for a 18 month contract.

 

Pancrate has a deal to the end of the season.

[LiquidAK]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

 

What if he did? Doesn't change the fact that his inability to spend when we really needed it (after selling the likes of Zog) was part of what got us relegated. Even if his plan was to only buy after getting rid of 'wasters', he stuck to it far to rigidly.

[madras]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

 

What if he did? Doesn't change the fact that his inability to spend when we really needed it (after selling the likes of Zog) was part of what got us relegated.

his inability ?.....wasn't it the clubs inability ?

 

just because we sold zog doesn't mean we have that money to spend when the big wasters were still there.

[LoveItIfWeBeatU]

Ashley was still handing out crazy contracts to players last January (R.Taylor and Nolan got contracts without Relegation clauses in them).

[LiquidAK]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

 

What if he did? Doesn't change the fact that his inability to spend when we really needed it (after selling the likes of Zog) was part of what got us relegated.

his inability ?.....wasn't it the clubs inability ?

 

just because we sold zog doesn't mean we have that money to spend when the big wasters were still there.

 

No, his inability. He's the man with the money, he's the one that lets the manager spend or not. Are you honestly saying you were satisfied with the January window last season? It was a joke man, we needed investment and we got Nolan and Taylor. Wasn't good enough, at all.

[Colocho]

To players who've yet to prove they can do it in the top flight. Seems a strange way for Ashley to be doing business.

Ensuring long-term mediocrity, no doubt.

[madras]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

 

What if he did? Doesn't change the fact that his inability to spend when we really needed it (after selling the likes of Zog) was part of what got us relegated.

his inability ?.....wasn't it the clubs inability ?

 

just because we sold zog doesn't mean we have that money to spend when the big wasters were still there.

 

No, his inability. He's the man with the money, he's the one that lets the manager spend or not. Are you honestly saying you were satisfied with the January window last season? It was a joke man, we needed investment and we got Nolan and Taylor. Wasn't good enough, at all.

no i wasn't happy but in the position i could just about understand it or as you say, we could have been in pompeys position...is it beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that.

 

 

still can't excuse him bringing in kinnear and then hughton mind.

[Dave]

3-4 year deals for players of this age are standard tbh.

[Cajun]

We will still need backup even if we do go on a mental spending spree in the summer!

[LiquidAK]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

 

What if he did? Doesn't change the fact that his inability to spend when we really needed it (after selling the likes of Zog) was part of what got us relegated.

his inability ?.....wasn't it the clubs inability ?

 

just because we sold zog doesn't mean we have that money to spend when the big wasters were still there.

 

No, his inability. He's the man with the money, he's the one that lets the manager spend or not. Are you honestly saying you were satisfied with the January window last season? It was a joke man, we needed investment and we got Nolan and Taylor. Wasn't good enough, at all.

no i wasn't happy but in the position i could just about understand it or as you say, we could have been in pompeys position...is it beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that.

 

 

still can't excuse him bringing in kinnear and then hughton mind.

 

That's what I'm saying, cocked up the short term future but maybe saved the long term future. Not beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that at all, just think he could still have invested a small amount more to keep us up.

 

Completely agreed on the management, could not have gotten that any worse.

[Teasy]

They're on moderate to small wages.  No point in signing these players on short deals which mean we have no time to sell them on if they're not good enough.  Also I suppose for accounting purposes it spreads the fee out more.

 

Pretty much what you said I assume. As far as the accounting lot are concerned you can spread your outlay over a 3.5 year period even if we pay the whole sum up front... bloody accounts are the devil when it comes to paperwork.

 

As far as the account are concerned the fee is always spread over the length of the contract no matter when the actual money is paid.

[madras]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

 

What if he did? Doesn't change the fact that his inability to spend when we really needed it (after selling the likes of Zog) was part of what got us relegated.

his inability ?.....wasn't it the clubs inability ?

 

just because we sold zog doesn't mean we have that money to spend when the big wasters were still there.

 

No, his inability. He's the man with the money, he's the one that lets the manager spend or not. Are you honestly saying you were satisfied with the January window last season? It was a joke man, we needed investment and we got Nolan and Taylor. Wasn't good enough, at all.

no i wasn't happy but in the position i could just about understand it or as you say, we could have been in pompeys position...is it beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that.

 

 

still can't excuse him bringing in kinnear and then hughton mind.

 

That's what I'm saying, cocked up the short term future but maybe saved the long term future. Not beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that at all, just think he could still have invested a small amount more to keep us up.

 

Completely agreed on the management, could not have gotten that any worse.

but the way you are describing it he didn't cock up the short term future, he saw what it was and realised we couldn't go on like that.

[LiquidAK]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

 

What if he did? Doesn't change the fact that his inability to spend when we really needed it (after selling the likes of Zog) was part of what got us relegated.

his inability ?.....wasn't it the clubs inability ?

 

just because we sold zog doesn't mean we have that money to spend when the big wasters were still there.

 

No, his inability. He's the man with the money, he's the one that lets the manager spend or not. Are you honestly saying you were satisfied with the January window last season? It was a joke man, we needed investment and we got Nolan and Taylor. Wasn't good enough, at all.

no i wasn't happy but in the position i could just about understand it or as you say, we could have been in pompeys position...is it beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that.

 

 

still can't excuse him bringing in kinnear and then hughton mind.

 

That's what I'm saying, cocked up the short term future but maybe saved the long term future. Not beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that at all, just think he could still have invested a small amount more to keep us up.

 

Completely agreed on the management, could not have gotten that any worse.

but the way you are describing it he didn't cock up the short term future, he saw what it was and realised we couldn't go on like that.

 

By short term future I mean very short term, as in our relegation.

[madras]

Until recently Newcastle would sign up untested players (Xisco) on huge weekly wages and long contracts (apparently Xisco's runs until 06/2013). Simpson, Routledge and Williamson (if he signs) will in total cost less than the fee for Xisco and their combined wages are less than Xisco's. That makes Simpson, Routledge and Williamson very low risk by Newcastle standards. If things don't work out we'll be able to get most of our money back on them if not make a profit.

 

 

it may be the only way forward for the club, given the financial climate. Its a diffrent market now.

 

Things actually seem to be coming together a bit now, Ashley's penny pinching completely f***ed us up, but I think I'd prefer that than us being in a West Ham or Portsmouth situation like we may have been had Sheppard continued his borrowing.

 

The way I see it:

 

Ashley's an idiot, and has gone about pretty much everything the wrong way. Weirdly enough, despite royally cocking up the short term future of the club, it may have saved our long term future.

 

Imagine what we could have done had we had a competent owner.

does that mean you think we really had to cut costs and quickly ?

 

It means I think had we continued with the transfer policy we were following under the old board we'd have been screwed. Sadly Ashley took it way too far in the opposite direction and would hardly spend at all.

what if he had planned to spend but only when he freed up money by getting rid of some big earning wasters ?

 

not saying thats what happened but it's as likely as "he's an idiot" ?

 

What if he did? Doesn't change the fact that his inability to spend when we really needed it (after selling the likes of Zog) was part of what got us relegated.

his inability ?.....wasn't it the clubs inability ?

 

just because we sold zog doesn't mean we have that money to spend when the big wasters were still there.

 

No, his inability. He's the man with the money, he's the one that lets the manager spend or not. Are you honestly saying you were satisfied with the January window last season? It was a joke man, we needed investment and we got Nolan and Taylor. Wasn't good enough, at all.

no i wasn't happy but in the position i could just about understand it or as you say, we could have been in pompeys position...is it beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that.

 

 

still can't excuse him bringing in kinnear and then hughton mind.

 

That's what I'm saying, cocked up the short term future but maybe saved the long term future. Not beyond the realms of possibility that he saw that at all, just think he could still have invested a small amount more to keep us up.

 

Completely agreed on the management, could not have gotten that any worse.

but the way you are describing it he didn't cock up the short term future, he saw what it was and realised we couldn't go on like that.

 

By short term future I mean very short term, as in our relegation.

i'm still of the opinion that he took the risk on us staying up and getting rid of the big earners. we'd have been in a very good position financially had it came off. wether it was to sell for a profit, him to milk the profits or to grow the club, who knows. he may even have saw a pompey situation coming  had we not cut costs straight away.

[LiquidAK]

Yeah had it come off it would have put us in a great position. Sadly it didn't. Should never have gambled like that imo, wouldn't have made us the next Pompey had he spent say £5m to keep us up and then build from there, still in a great financial position.

[madras]

Yeah had it come off it would have put us in a great position. Sadly it didn't. Should never have gambled like that imo, wouldn't have made us the next Pompey had he spent say £5m to keep us up and then build from there, still in a great financial position.

even if he thought the alternative was for us to do a pompey ?

[LiquidAK]

Yeah had it come off it would have put us in a great position. Sadly it didn't. Should never have gambled like that imo, wouldn't have made us the next Pompey had he spent say £5m to keep us up and then build from there, still in a great financial position.

even if he thought the alternative was for us to do a pompey ?

 

But it wouldn't. Read in another thread a few days ago that he's still worth £800m, assuming that's accurate, £5m out of his pocket to protect his investment and keep us up would never have turned us into Portsmouth.

[madras]

Yeah had it come off it would have put us in a great position. Sadly it didn't. Should never have gambled like that imo, wouldn't have made us the next Pompey had he spent say £5m to keep us up and then build from there, still in a great financial position.

even if he thought the alternative was for us to do a pompey ?

 

But it wouldn't. Read in another thread a few days ago that he's still worth £800m, assuming that's accurate, £5m out of his pocket to protect his investment and keep us up would never have turned us into Portsmouth.

it's 5mill on top of whatever he put in to start with and where did the nolan and taylor money come from, so in effect you are saying 10mill plus whatever he put in to keep us a float ?

[LiquidAK]

Yeah had it come off it would have put us in a great position. Sadly it didn't. Should never have gambled like that imo, wouldn't have made us the next Pompey had he spent say £5m to keep us up and then build from there, still in a great financial position.

even if he thought the alternative was for us to do a pompey ?

 

But it wouldn't. Read in another thread a few days ago that he's still worth £800m, assuming that's accurate, £5m out of his pocket to protect his investment and keep us up would never have turned us into Portsmouth.

it's 5mill on top of whatever he put in to start with and where did the nolan and taylor money come from, so in effect you are saying 10mill plus whatever he put in to keep us a float ?

 

You aren't taking the Given or N'Zogbia money into consideration. Plus Taylor was free as a part of that deal.

[madras]

Yeah had it come off it would have put us in a great position. Sadly it didn't. Should never have gambled like that imo, wouldn't have made us the next Pompey had he spent say £5m to keep us up and then build from there, still in a great financial position.

even if he thought the alternative was for us to do a pompey ?

 

But it wouldn't. Read in another thread a few days ago that he's still worth £800m, assuming that's accurate, £5m out of his pocket to protect his investment and keep us up would never have turned us into Portsmouth.

it's 5mill on top of whatever he put in to start with and where did the nolan and taylor money come from, so in effect you are saying 10mill plus whatever he put in to keep us a float ?

 

You aren't taking the Given or N'Zogbia money into consideration. Plus Taylor was free as a part of that deal.

so if we bring in transfer money it has to be used on transfers, not paying other debts ?

[LiquidAK]

Yeah had it come off it would have put us in a great position. Sadly it didn't. Should never have gambled like that imo, wouldn't have made us the next Pompey had he spent say £5m to keep us up and then build from there, still in a great financial position.

even if he thought the alternative was for us to do a pompey ?

 

But it wouldn't. Read in another thread a few days ago that he's still worth £800m, assuming that's accurate, £5m out of his pocket to protect his investment and keep us up would never have turned us into Portsmouth.

it's 5mill on top of whatever he put in to start with and where did the nolan and taylor money come from, so in effect you are saying 10mill plus whatever he put in to keep us a float ?

 

You aren't taking the Given or N'Zogbia money into consideration. Plus Taylor was free as a part of that deal.

so if we bring in transfer money it has to be used on transfers, not paying other debts ?

 

No of course not, but do you think that another £5m on transfers that would likely have kept us up, would have wrecked our financial situation with our £800m valued owner?

[madras]

Yeah had it come off it would have put us in a great position. Sadly it didn't. Should never have gambled like that imo, wouldn't have made us the next Pompey had he spent say £5m to keep us up and then build from there, still in a great financial position.

even if he thought the alternative was for us to do a pompey ?

 

But it wouldn't. Read in another thread a few days ago that he's still worth £800m, assuming that's accurate, £5m out of his pocket to protect his investment and keep us up would never have turned us into Portsmouth.

it's 5mill on top of whatever he put in to start with and where did the nolan and taylor money come from, so in effect you are saying 10mill plus whatever he put in to keep us a float ?

 

You aren't taking the Given or N'Zogbia money into consideration. Plus Taylor was free as a part of that deal.

so if we bring in transfer money it has to be used on transfers, not paying other debts ?

 

No of course not, but do you think that another £5m on transfers that would likely have kept us up, would have wrecked our financial situation with our £800m valued owner?

not far off another nolan ? so, no. i don't necessarily think another 5mill would have kept us up with kinnear/hughton in charge.