Jeff Vetere (Newcastle's Scouting Network)

[Guest jonlane86]

Since I've lived in North America, for 8 or the last 12 years, I've become more interested in the NFL. Now the super bowl is over the focus shifts to the Draft. The draft is a fasinating process, it's basically like over a weekend your club adds 7 or more of the best young players in the world, the worse you did last year the better your choice. The reason I bring that up here is that it struck me how much better the scouting is for the NFL than for our game. The scouting combine comes up at the end of this month, here the draft hopefuls will be tested and interviewed by the teams. The GMs and scouts of the teams have already been to see the prospects they could be interested in, watched hours of tape on them and started to prepare their draft boards, rating prospects from best to worst. I already know more about the strengths and weaknesses of some of the best prospects that my team (the Dolphins) will be interested, than I'll ever know about a player NUFC might sign in the summer. Another important aspects is that their scouting does not limit itself to talent or size and shape, they also scout the "intangibles" such as character, leadership, off the field issues, something I think we've been guilty in the past of not looking into or just glossing over.

 

I really think NUFC should take a leaf out of the NFL teams investment in scouting and really invest heavly in it. Ashley and Wise and the rest of the fools in charge, had the right idea here, scouting and finding hidden gems is how you build up a strong club, I hope with the fall out from the last year or so we don't sink back to the old days where scouting was practically non existent. I've been reading Sir Bobby's autobiography, and he was pretty harsh on the state of scouting prior to his arrival, the clud didn't even have a chief scout, he brought in Charlie Woods for that role.

 

Excellent point RE the NFL, there are so many things the NFL do better

[madras]

Since I've lived in North America, for 8 or the last 12 years, I've become more interested in the NFL. Now the super bowl is over the focus shifts to the Draft. The draft is a fasinating process, it's basically like over a weekend your club adds 7 or more of the best young players in the world, the worse you did last year the better your choice. The reason I bring that up here is that it struck me how much better the scouting is for the NFL than for our game. The scouting combine comes up at the end of this month, here the draft hopefuls will be tested and interviewed by the teams. The GMs and scouts of the teams have already been to see the prospects they could be interested in, watched hours of tape on them and started to prepare their draft boards, rating prospects from best to worst. I already know more about the strengths and weaknesses of some of the best prospects that my team (the Dolphins) will be interested, than I'll ever know about a player NUFC might sign in the summer. Another important aspects is that their scouting does not limit itself to talent or size and shape, they also scout the "intangibles" such as character, leadership, off the field issues, something I think we've been guilty in the past of not looking into or just glossing over.

 

I really think NUFC should take a leaf out of the NFL teams investment in scouting and really invest heavly in it. Ashley and Wise and the rest of the fools in charge, had the right idea here, scouting and finding hidden gems is how you build up a strong club, I hope with the fall out from the last year or so we don't sink back to the old days where scouting was practically non existent. I've been reading Sir Bobby's autobiography, and he was pretty harsh on the state of scouting prior to his arrival, the clud didn't even have a chief scout, he brought in Charlie Woods for that role.

 

Excellent point RE the NFL, there are so many things the NFL do better

sounds good if we werent trerated to stories almost every week about rapes,shootings,drugs etc from the nfl roster. after that it's the usual thing about the best going to the better teams (where you have the draft system) and the rest having to hope they pick up one that sklips through the net....that works in the nfl aswell.

 

 

 

out of curiosity what happens if someone is drafted but doesnt want to go to that team ?

[Guest thebigfella]

I'm sure I heard john beresford and rob lee do a bit if youth scouting for the club

[Guest Stephen927]

Before the Superbowl I was reading how corrupt the draft system in the NFL may or may not be. I suppose it is possible to tell a kid to play shit for a few months so he goes down the draft picks, but admittedly my knowledge of the draft system barely extends beyond a brief understanding of it in NBA 2K7.

[Thespence]

I'm sure I heard john beresford and rob lee do a bit if youth scouting for the club

 

I suppose going to Blue Velvet could be classed as scouting for talent

[afar]

Since I've lived in North America, for 8 or the last 12 years, I've become more interested in the NFL. Now the super bowl is over the focus shifts to the Draft. The draft is a fasinating process, it's basically like over a weekend your club adds 7 or more of the best young players in the world, the worse you did last year the better your choice. The reason I bring that up here is that it struck me how much better the scouting is for the NFL than for our game. The scouting combine comes up at the end of this month, here the draft hopefuls will be tested and interviewed by the teams. The GMs and scouts of the teams have already been to see the prospects they could be interested in, watched hours of tape on them and started to prepare their draft boards, rating prospects from best to worst. I already know more about the strengths and weaknesses of some of the best prospects that my team (the Dolphins) will be interested, than I'll ever know about a player NUFC might sign in the summer. Another important aspects is that their scouting does not limit itself to talent or size and shape, they also scout the "intangibles" such as character, leadership, off the field issues, something I think we've been guilty in the past of not looking into or just glossing over.

 

I really think NUFC should take a leaf out of the NFL teams investment in scouting and really invest heavly in it. Ashley and Wise and the rest of the fools in charge, had the right idea here, scouting and finding hidden gems is how you build up a strong club, I hope with the fall out from the last year or so we don't sink back to the old days where scouting was practically non existent. I've been reading Sir Bobby's autobiography, and he was pretty harsh on the state of scouting prior to his arrival, the clud didn't even have a chief scout, he brought in Charlie Woods for that role.

 

Excellent point RE the NFL, there are so many things the NFL do better

sounds good if we werent trerated to stories almost every week about rapes,shootings,drugs etc from the nfl roster. after that it's the usual thing about the best going to the better teams (where you have the draft system) and the rest having to hope they pick up one that sklips through the net....that works in the nfl aswell.

 

 

 

out of curiosity what happens if someone is drafted but doesnt want to go to that team ?

 

The reason we see some high profile convictions with NFL players is that general player base comes from some of most deprieved areas in the country. Admitidly our football too is a working class game, but the difference is that there is a greater percent of players coming from really bad areas, areas where, drugs, gun crime and gangs and stuff are a way of life. These people are suddenly thrown into a different world and often it does not mix, Michael Vick's just returned from a 2 year sentence for Dog fighting, Donte stallworth just completed time for killing a pedestrian in his car while Plaxio Burress is currently doing a 2 year stint for holding an unrestgistered gun supply. Generally speaking though if these character concerns become apararent before the player enters the draft, then their draft stock drop significantly. For example Carlos Dunlap, is an excellent defensive end coming out of Florida, he was projected to go at the top of the first round,  however he was arrested a few days before the SEC championship, for DUI and is now projected to perhaps fall into the second round, the difference in money between the top of the first and the 2nd round is huge.

 

As for the question about a player not wanting to go to a team, well it doesn't really happen very often. A few years back Eli Manning was drafted by the Chargers as the first player in the draft, but said he had no intention of signing for them. For the top draft picks you have already talked to the player well in advance  before they are picked, for the first overall pick, a contract is usually agreed before the draft starts. Anyway Eli wouldn't sign, so the chargers did a trade with the giants , who had drafted Philip Rivers, Rivers went to the chargers, Eli to the giants, I think the chargers also got a draft pick from the giants too. Ironically Rivers has IMO turned out to be a much better QB than Eli, even though Eli has won a superbowl.

This year Michael Crabtree wouldn't sign a contract with the 49ers, despite being drafted in the first round by them, it wasn't because he didn't want to go there, more because he felt he was worth more money than he was being offered, anyway in that case, he is not allowed to negoiate with any other team, it was October I think before he eventually signed. If he hadn't signed he would not have been able to play that entire season and would have to re-enter the draft the following year, I think also San Fran would have gotten a compensatory draft pick.

The thing is the money is so huge for the 1st round picks that it is stupid not to sign with any team that drafts you, if you are in the lower rounds, here often you are just happy to get drafted. The highest paid player in the league right now, is not Payton Manning, or Drew Brees or Tom Brady, it's last year's number 1 draft pick Matthew Strafford of one of the worst teams in the league the Detriot Lions !

[afar]

Before the Superbowl I was reading how corrupt the draft system in the NFL may or may not be. I suppose it is possible to tell a kid to play s*** for a few months so he goes down the draft picks, but admittedly my knowledge of the draft system barely extends beyond a brief understanding of it in NBA 2K7.

 

I don't think it's corrupt at all, it's in the best interests of the player to be chosen as highly as possible in the draft. The higher he's picked the more moeny he'll make. There is not the attachtment to clubs there is in our game, and there are not teams like Manure or Arsenal or Chelsea, that win things year on year. The salary cap helps a lot of that, the more successful your players are more money they want, and the more likely you are to have to trade them because of the impact on your cap, thus weakening the better teams.  So form moves around a lot more, players influence that and if you have a true great playing for you in an important position you are going to challenge as long as you put some decent players around him. The Clots are an example of this, they were bloody awful for years prior to Peyton Manning being drafted, it took a year or two but now they make the playoffs every year, they just got lucky that that year where they picked first (because they were the worst team in the NFL, the previous year) the best QB probably of all time was available to them. That is one of the great things about the draft process, you can literally change you team's fortunes around in one year's draft and the way the system works, the odds are stacked in favour of the worst teams.

 

I've often thought that a draft system would be great for the PL, obviously we don't have a college system., but we do have free agency (bosmans). A draft could be employed for that with the worst team picking first. The thing that probably makes it impossible though is the competition from other leagues, the NFL has no competition, it can dictate the rules. If a player in our football though is not picked by the team he wants, he can go off quite happily and earn the same if not more money at a foreign club.

[David28]

http://www.nufcblog.com/2010/02/11/reports-jeff-vetere-has-left-newcastle-good/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nufcblog+%28The+Newcastle+United+Blog%29

 

Don't know if already posted but it was asked here if Vetere was still at the club or not. Here's the answer. (I know, only NUFC-Blog, but still)

 

The Evening Chronicle is reporting today that Newcastle United have at least parted company with technical co-ordinator Jeff Vetere.

 

Chris Mort, Jeff Vetere, Dennis Wise and Tony_Jimenez

The only decent one above was Chris Mort

 

43 year-old Jeff Vetere was the one of the executive scouting team that was introduced at Newcastle by Chris Mort in late January of 2008.

 

But they turned out to be a complete bust for the club, and Dennis Wise and Tony Jiminez left last year.

 

The former Real Madrid and West Ham scout was appointed alongside Director of Football Dennis Wise and Cockney player recruitment chief Tony Jimenez.

 

What were these doing as part of Newcastle United for heavens sakes?

 

One of the players Jeff brought in was Spanish lad Xisco for around £6M – enough said about his skills as a recruiter.

 

So now all four of the above have now left the club, and the only decent one amongst them was former Chairman Chris Mort, who kept the club together while he was at the helm until May of 2008.

 

Derek Llambias came in to replace him, and almost immediately the club went to hell in a hand-basket, due to Derek’s complete inexperience  and inability to manage a football club.

 

Chris didn’t have too much experience either in football, but he was a sensible and intelligent man – and talked regularly to fans to get the pulse of the club.

 

Derek has done none of that – and boy – does it show – and that’s just one reason we are now in England’s second division

[Fenham Mag]

Says in tonight's Chronicle that he has gone

[Dr.Spaceman]

Only NUFC Blog?  What are you on about, it's on the best sites out there.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Cheers for the update, got it sorted. Though, still think out Scouting Network is in ruin/none existant at times, allowing Sunderland and Boro to get the march on young local talent.

[Kaizero]

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/nufc/newcastle-united-news/2009/10/22/newcastle-united-eyeing-joakim-rudolfsen-72703-24988395/

 

For source confirmation of Norman Wooster being chief scout in Scandinavia bar me saying I've met him at a local match and spoken to him as I know you can't use that as confirmation.

[Tooj]

I'm sure I heard john beresford and rob lee do a bit if youth scouting for the club

 

Lee tried to get his bairns in the academy.

[Colocho]

I know I should probably know this, (sorry I don't!), but has Jeff Vetere left the club since the Keegan Tribunal? Haven't seen any mention of his name associated with Newcastle for months and with us bringing in a new Scout seems possible he's left after the inquest finished.

 

I would love to know what he is doing.

[Thespence]

I'm sure I heard john beresford and rob lee do a bit if youth scouting for the club

 

Lee tried to get his bairns in the academy.

 

Are you sure? I thought his lad had always been a poor little hammer.

[gazza ladra]

The draft system is an absolute joke. If you are drafted by a club that you do not wish to play for then you are screwed--basically. You have no options but to take the contract or take a job in another profession.

 

In the past, when there were competing leagues (NFL-AFL, or NFL-USFL; NBA-ABA), the players had options and could play one league off the other. Alternately, athletes that play in sports that have leagues overseas might choose to leave the North America. But with the exception of football (soccer), the pay overseas doesn't come close to the potential money to be made in North America. Sports teams in the United States are legalized monopolies-- they are excepted from anti-trust legislation by law. Most athletes don't mind because 1) they don't have any options, 2) don't know any better, and 3) the money is too good to pass up.

[afar]

The draft system is an absolute joke. If you are drafted by a club that you do not wish to play for then you are screwed--basically. You have no options but to take the contract or take a job in another profession.

 

In the past, when there were competing leagues (NFL-AFL, or NFL-USFL; NBA-ABA), the players had options and could play one league off the other. Alternately, athletes that play in sports that have leagues overseas might choose to leave the North America. But with the exception of football (soccer), the pay overseas doesn't come close to the potential money to be made in North America. Sports teams in the United States are legalized monopolies-- they are excepted from anti-trust legislation by law. Most athletes don't mind because 1) they don't have any options, 2) don't know any better, and 3) the money is too good to pass up.

 

But to counter that, in football we have a situation that exists now where players are in essence more powerful than the clubs, they wield way too much power.

 

As you rightly say that's not the case in NFL, and the power firmly lies with the clubs. Personally as a supporter I would prefer that my club is not dictated to by the player, as a player of course I would prefer the situation we have in football.

 

I don't agree with the statement that the draft system is a joke at all. It helps build a much more level playing field, allowing the worse teams to have the pick of the best prospects, while the better teams have fewer options. From the player's standpoint it's not too bad also, the college to nfl draft system, allows a lot of kids (not just the ones that get drafted) to have the opportunity to go to colege which they would not have had had they not excelled in sports. This isn't so important for the ones that go on to be big stars in the NFL, but those that don't make it to the professional game get the opportunity to get a college degree, helping their prospects in life outside the game. There's a great story this year of a guy called Myron Rolle, who went to Florida State, he excelled academically there, he was due to go into the draft last year but got the opportunity to study for a year at Oxford through a scholarship he won for his academic studies, he took it and with it took a year out of American Football, he's back for this year's draft. Like I said above the players also make a ton of money, Matthew Stafford last year's #1 pick signed on for $41.7 million gaurenteed with a possibility of making $78 million over his 6 year contract !! That's for a kid who had never played a single game of pro football. There are few to no complaints from the players about which team they land on, like I said, there is not that attachment to teams that we have in our sport, nor is there a decade on decade dominant teams. Look at this years Super Bowl winners (they call themselves world champions, which is so indicative of the insular nature of most americans, still they are probably right since no one outside of their country and Canada, which is a crappier version, plays the game) they've never won it before in their history, didn't even make the playoffs last year and had me pretty much of a joke of a team for much of the 80's.

 

Oh and a player does have options, he can refuse to sign a contract, he will have to sit out the year, unless the team waives their rights, but he can re-enter the draft the following year. But again it rarely happens, they are largely happy just to make the NFL. These are young players who've never played the game for money.

 

From the outside the draft system looks odd and unfair to the players, but when you take a deep interest in it you understand how intriguing it is and the possibilities for your team, the players are treated fairly but the power if definately in the hands of the owners.

 

In our football we use players very much as commodities that we buy and sell, however the commodities have a say in where they go. The concept is slightly different in American sports, in the NFL to get the player you want from another team you have to either wait for him to finish his current contract and try to sign him as a free agent, or makes trades with the other team to get him, you can trade players or draft picks or a combination of both. The teams are always (although that may change in 2010) working within the confines of a salry cap, you have to really balance your needs with what you can afford. In our football it's possible for teams like Manure, Barcelona and Real Madrid to stockpile the best players, even reserves at these clubs make more than first teamers at alot of other clubs. That can't happen in the NFL. 

 

 

Having said all that, there are lots of issues with the NFL, it's very rigid, probably would violate a lot of EU laws for free movement, if it were ever to have a franchise based in London which is a distinct possibility in the near future. We can teach them a few things that we do better in our game, there season only lasts for 3 months and is 16 games, could you imagine paying $1000 for a season ticket which equates to 8 games ! Although the fans are very passionate about their teams, there is not the connection that exists with the public that exists in our game. And it really shouldn't take 3 bloody hours to play a 60 minute game. There are things though we can learn from them, such as the way they market their game, the TV deals and I think the way they try to give everyone the opportunity to be competetive.

 

[Exiled in Texas]

Afar - Great post on american sports.

 

 

In my mind the key difference between US sports and the rest of the world is that US sports are all franchises of a closed league. There are 32 teams playing in the NFL (simialr for NHL, NBA and MLB), and the only way to get an league franchise now is to buy an existing franchise from the current owner. There is no second tier, no relegation. For players it's an all-or-nothing situation where you play in the NFL with their rules on drafts/contracts etc, or you don't play at all.

 

And as Gazzalad mentioned - the money is too great compared to the options.

 

Drafts/salary cap etc work really well in leagues that are the absolute pinnacle of the game. But if there was an alternative to any of these leagues that paid close to the same amount then the concept would founder immediately. Cap the Premier league and players would move to Spain, Italy etc in football there are too many options to be like American Football.

[Guest icemanblue]

Ahhh, so that's our problem? We've been looking for players in the wrong fucking sports!

[madras]

Afar - Great post on american sports.

 

 

In my mind the key difference between US sports and the rest of the world is that US sports are all franchises of a closed league. There are 32 teams playing in the NFL (simialr for NHL, NBA and MLB), and the only way to get an league franchise now is to buy an existing franchise from the current owner. There is no second tier, no relegation. For players it's an all-or-nothing situation where you play in the NFL with their rules on drafts/contracts etc, or you don't play at all.

 

And as Gazzalad mentioned - the money is too great compared to the options.

 

Drafts/salary cap etc work really well in leagues that are the absolute pinnacle of the game. But if there was an alternative to any of these leagues that paid close to the same amount then the concept would founder immediately. Cap the Premier league and players would move to Spain, Italy etc in football there are too many options to be like American Football.

and if it were a uefa wide cap ?

 

 

how many italian and spanish clubs do you think are paying on avarage more than the middle of the prem ?

[Exiled in Texas]

UEFA cap would be the way to go, but it's tough to make a fair cap across different countries with differing currency, tax bases and economies. Guaranteed that some one fo the top countries would complain that another was favored.

 

Let the clubs fail....at some point the credit card bills become due and the spending has to stop. Some clubs just haven't come to a sense of reality yet.

[afar]

Exiled you are absolutely right, that the cap wouldn't work if only applied to the prem. And right again about the difficulties in setting a cap for UEFA wide. In some countries it is possible to get by on a lower level than in the prem.  The PL is extremely competitive, although we have the established teams, those teams can't coast past the weaker ones like they can in other nations. So you need a bigger squad to cope with the demands, bigger squad means the salary cap is stretched more.

 

The way the NFL cap currently works is extremely complex, I have really no idea how to explain it, it's not just a case of here's a figure that you can't go above. There's stuff like guarenteed money versus bonuses and effects on your cap if you cut players. My team the Dolphins recently hired a person whose sole job is to manage the salary cap. A UEFA salary cap would need to probably be even more complex than this.

 

I think if we ever get to that European Super League, then ideas like Salary caps and Drafts can a should be considered, but I don't think there is a realistic way they would work with all the competing leagues we have around Europe.

[Exiled in Texas]

Not sure on the exact ruling but an interesting thing about NFL and the draft is that all players who want to enter the NFL must register for the draft, thereby giving all teams a chance to select the player. Of course there are way more players who register to enter the draft than there are draft spots, so many less talented players go undrafted.

 

Only once they are classed as Undrafted can they be free-agents and then any team can pick them up. So there is no way to hide promising young players or sneak players onto your team without another team having a fair chance to sign them.

 

All part of the NFL Collective Bargaining agreement between the players union and the NFL.

[Guest jonlane86]

Uefa Salary Cap - Excellent Idea, and should at least be looked at.  The best club sides in the world all play in Europe and although you may have players heading for more money in places like Qatar, a salary cap for Uefa clubs would be an excellent idea if done correctly.

 

Draft...... - As much as I agree the NFL draft is an excellent way of operating, I don't see it working.  I would however be in favor of the local club getting first refusal on any players under the age of 21.  That way if they 'pass them up' it's their own fault, but it also stops the likes of Chelsea knicking young Kakutas.  Maybe if there was some sort of 'Work Permit' system where a club could lose the rights to a player if they don't play enough games that would ensure young players get the exposure they need to improve.  It also means that if for arguments sake Newcastle are getting lots of excellent young talent, that it is down to the area that they are produced in.  It also means that lower league clubs could profit from their local talent.  In that proposed system though, a club would forfeit their rights if they decided to sell, and the players would need to be contacted until their 23rd birthday in order to be able to have the option to sell the player rather than just lose them on a free once the local club have lost their 'rights'.

 

TV Rights - Currently the NFL have a rule that if a local game is not sold out, it cannot be televised in the local area.  I strongly believe this rule should be put into place as it encourages people to attend the matches rather than stick to the armchair.  Look at the likes of Wigan who never sell out, yet there may be quite a few armchair fans just not turning up.

[afar]

Not sure on the exact ruling but an interesting thing about NFL and the draft is that all players who want to enter the NFL must register for the draft, thereby giving all teams a chance to select the player. Of course there are way more players who register to enter the draft than there are draft spots, so many less talented players go undrafted.

 

Only once they are classed as Undrafted can they be free-agents and then any team can pick them up. So there is no way to hide promising young players or sneak players onto your team without another team having a fair chance to sign them.

 

All part of the NFL Collective Bargaining agreement between the players union and the NFL.

 

Yeah I didn't mention that, good point, the draft does protects all the teams, giving them all a fair crack at the talent out there.

 

Uefa Salary Cap - Excellent Idea, and should at least be looked at.  The best club sides in the world all play in Europe and although you may have players heading for more money in places like Qatar, a salary cap for Uefa clubs would be an excellent idea if done correctly.

 

Draft...... - As much as I agree the NFL draft is an excellent way of operating, I don't see it working.  I would however be in favor of the local club getting first refusal on any players under the age of 21.  That way if they 'pass them up' it's their own fault, but it also stops the likes of Chelsea knicking young Kakutas.  Maybe if there was some sort of 'Work Permit' system where a club could lose the rights to a player if they don't play enough games that would ensure young players get the exposure they need to improve.  It also means that if for arguments sake Newcastle are getting lots of excellent young talent, that it is down to the area that they are produced in.  It also means that lower league clubs could profit from their local talent.  In that proposed system though, a club would forfeit their rights if they decided to sell, and the players would need to be contacted until their 23rd birthday in order to be able to have the option to sell the player rather than just lose them on a free once the local club have lost their 'rights'.

 

TV Rights - Currently the NFL have a rule that if a local game is not sold out, it cannot be televised in the local area.  I strongly believe this rule should be put into place as it encourages people to attend the matches rather than stick to the armchair.  Look at the likes of Wigan who never sell out, yet there may be quite a few armchair fans just not turning up.

 

Sorry we've kind of hijacked  this thread, apologies to Jeff Vetere

 

Great point on the Blackout rule, it's a really great idea, ensures that TV coverage does not adversely effect crowd attendances.

 

Also for those who don't know how the TV coverage works in the NFL. All 4 of the big stations, CBS, FOX, ABC and NBC show Live NFL games throughout the season. ABC (owned by Disney who also own ESPN), show one game on a Monday night, NBC show one game a week on a Sunday Night. All the rest of the games are shown live at 1pm or 4pm EST on a Sunday, split between FOX and CBS. The market areas for teams are defined and the games are shown in the market areas, subject to the blackout ruling. For example if Miami played Dallas in Miami then that game will be shown live in South Florida, Dallas and other market areas for those teams, as long as the threshold of tickets has been sold in Miami, Dallas people would still see the game if the thershold had not been reached but South Florida folks wouldn't. While in Pheonix, they would get the Cardinals game at the Packers or something that meets their market needs.

I don't know why that same situation can't work in the UK, if I live in Newcastle I would rather see Newcastle at Bolton than Man Utd Versus Arsenal.