Hatem Ben Arfa

[Taylor Swift]

The reason they don't need someone to hold the ball up is because they have players who are good at controlling the ball and have good technique, so they are able to play the game in the opposition's half. Ben Arfa has sublime skills on the ball and is probably the player that is hardest to get the ball from because he's agile, quick and is so technically good. Ergo, we should play him, because like Jonas, he can help relieve pressure. There are many ways of relieving pressure. Players like Cabaye help us relieve pressure because they are composed on the ball and they don't give it away needlessly. Jonas helps us relieve pressure by being a willing runner with the ball and being someone who doesn't lose the ball without being fouled. Ben Arfa has the same skills as Jonas. He plays a riskier game but he's only done so when the risk was worth taking. I think you've come to a seriously fast conclusion on Ben Arfa's tendencies based on his eagerness to impress when he came on against Spurs, which is a shame because playing the likes of Ben Arfa and Marveaux is the best way to become a team that's able to maintain constant pressure on the opposition team, thus negating the need for a striker who can hold the ball up. You're heading into the wrong direction if you think we need to play Best to hold up the ball and relieve pressure. We need to play Ben Arfa because he's able to dribble past players with ease and by constantly doing this, defenders will back off and thus the pressure will be on the opposition, and not us. That's how we will become a good team. Doing the old having a big striker to hold up play thing isn't the solution and it's obvious that it isn't because none of the better footballing teams on the continent do this. Even a team like Chelsea, when they played Drogba alone up front, was much more technical and Drogba himself is extremely talented. Ba is far more like him than Best because Ba has good control, a decent turn of pace and is also willing to run the channels.

 

Drogba was excellent at relieving pressure for Chelsea and everything went through him being the head of the team so I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

 

You say the better footballing teams in Europe do this but we're not one of them, we don't have the quality of players to be one of them and would get dissected if we tried to play that way, so we do what's effective for us and stick with the solid forward that soaks up all of the pressure and can bring our other players into play from there. If you look at how we played under Robson with Shearer relieving the pressure from the team with the quicker and technical players swarming around and it's similar to the role Best is playing now.

 

Your opinion that Ben Arfa will dribble past players to relieve pressure is all well and good when it comes off but when it doesn't we're instantly back under pressure and that's how it's been for every game he's featured up top for us, is he suddenly going to stop giving the ball away when he's up to speed? Well no and people have already pointed out when defending him that you're going to have to accept that he's going to lose it a lot while trying to be creative.

 

Shearer as the hold up man worked excellent, Drogba in that role worked for Chelsea, Adebayor is making that role work at Spurs and most importantly Best is making that role work for us and until it doesn't there is no reason at all to change it.

 

Shearer and Drogba had great technique and good enough close control to be able to maintain possession when pressured. Ba is more like them than Best is.

 

And again, you're judging Ben Arfa on 180 minutes of football. I think you're being way too hasty. He doesn't have a record or history of losing the ball in key positions. People have said that he takes risks sometimes but he's not the type to take risks in the middle of the park. Look at the Everton match for a good example of what he can do on the ball and how he can help us relieve pressure. I think he lost the ball a few times in that match but all were when taking risks which were worth taking. He wasn't trying to take on the whole team from the halfway line like he tried to do twice against Spurs. I think the Spurs game is a complete one-off and will quickly be forgotten if Ben Arfa has a chance to start many games in a row and get back up to speed.

 

I think Ben Arfa would be even better when we're not forced to score a goal because he'll have loads more space to operate in. Again, the Everton match is a good example of how he can affect a game when he's fully fit, whereas in the Spurs match he came on when Spurs were defending with 9 or at times 10 men and he looked short of sharpness.

[TheGuv]

My eyes hurt afetr reading this page

[Taylor Swift]

I just don't understand this. Yes, let's bench a French international who has been a must-start for every team that he's played for his life - incidentally every team that he's played for his life was also better than our team is now - and start the hardworking but limited Leon Best. I actually really like Best so I'm kind of sad that I'm having to argue so vociferously for eventually dropping him, but it's mind-boggling that people would drop someone as technically good as Ben Arfa. Would you drop Mata or Silva because they don't work as hard Best? Of course you don't. These players help you control the game. You wouldn't drop Cabaye because he's a shit tackler, in the same way that Scholes wasn't dropped in big games because he wasn't a good tackler. Even Man Utd right now don't have a DM in their team because they want players who can control the ball and dominate possession. If Best was Zlatan then no one would be arguing for his benching but he's a limited player who's close control isn't the best. He's still a player that will contribute to our season, but playing Ben Arfa will make us a better team.

 

At the end of the day, when his chance comes and if he takes it, everyone will be very supportive. If he doesnt then people, including the silver fox, will continue to favour Besty. Just the way it is.

 

Bit like the Santon situation. The screams for him to replace Taylor have died down, however when his chance comes he may defend well on his own and free up Jonas to attack.

 

No shit, Sherlock. If your comment to every situation is that Pardew/the manager will be the decider then every thread on here and every football thread on every football or any sports forum is useless.

 

Everyone wants us to win. Everyone wants us to develop into a good football team; one that is fun to watch, hard to beat and is able to compete. That's something that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be mentioned. Most of us have different opinions about our players and it's interesting to hear what different fans think about each player, regardless of whether the manager agrees or not.

[wormy]

My eyes hurt afetr reading this page

 

I can't do it anymore. I remember when this thread used to be fun.

[Flip]

[Taylor Swift]

My eyes hurt afetr reading this page

 

Paragraphs, paragraphs. I keep meaning to hit enter but I always reach the end of the post before doing so. Sorry.

[Lush Vlad]

I just don't understand this. Yes, let's bench a French international who has been a must-start for every team that he's played for his life - incidentally every team that he's played for his life was also better than our team is now - and start the hardworking but limited Leon Best. I actually really like Best so I'm kind of sad that I'm having to argue so vociferously for eventually dropping him, but it's mind-boggling that people would drop someone as technically good as Ben Arfa. Would you drop Mata or Silva because they don't work as hard Best? Of course you don't. These players help you control the game. You wouldn't drop Cabaye because he's a s*** tackler, in the same way that Scholes wasn't dropped in big games because he wasn't a good tackler. Even Man Utd right now don't have a DM in their team because they want players who can control the ball and dominate possession. If Best was Zlatan then no one would be arguing for his benching but he's a limited player who's close control isn't the best. He's still a player that will contribute to our season, but playing Ben Arfa will make us a better team.

 

 

Some good points, but Cabaye is far from a shit tackler.

[Baggio]

I just don't understand this. Yes, let's bench a French international who has been a must-start for every team that he's played for his life - incidentally every team that he's played for his life was also better than our team is now - and start the hardworking but limited Leon Best. I actually really like Best so I'm kind of sad that I'm having to argue so vociferously for eventually dropping him, but it's mind-boggling that people would drop someone as technically good as Ben Arfa. Would you drop Mata or Silva because they don't work as hard Best? Of course you don't. These players help you control the game. You wouldn't drop Cabaye because he's a shit tackler, in the same way that Scholes wasn't dropped in big games because he wasn't a good tackler. Even Man Utd right now don't have a DM in their team because they want players who can control the ball and dominate possession. If Best was Zlatan then no one would be arguing for his benching but he's a limited player who's close control isn't the best. He's still a player that will contribute to our season, but playing Ben Arfa will make us a better team.

 

Some of your analogies are terrible, Man Utd don't play with a DM so to be a better team we should move away from playing with one? Of course not, the reason for that is Tiote works for us and has played his part in making us the team we are.

 

If you want to use Man Utd as an example then why is it Ferguson plays Park in the majority of big games when he has more creative and skilled players to pick from? The same goes for Milner at Man City playing most weeks when there are far better creative options in the squad. The reason is that teams are not just built on the most skilled players but a balance of grafters too when you're against the better teams.

[Christmas Tree]

I just don't understand this. Yes, let's bench a French international who has been a must-start for every team that he's played for his life - incidentally every team that he's played for his life was also better than our team is now - and start the hardworking but limited Leon Best. I actually really like Best so I'm kind of sad that I'm having to argue so vociferously for eventually dropping him, but it's mind-boggling that people would drop someone as technically good as Ben Arfa. Would you drop Mata or Silva because they don't work as hard Best? Of course you don't. These players help you control the game. You wouldn't drop Cabaye because he's a shit tackler, in the same way that Scholes wasn't dropped in big games because he wasn't a good tackler. Even Man Utd right now don't have a DM in their team because they want players who can control the ball and dominate possession. If Best was Zlatan then no one would be arguing for his benching but he's a limited player who's close control isn't the best. He's still a player that will contribute to our season, but playing Ben Arfa will make us a better team.

 

At the end of the day, when his chance comes and if he takes it, everyone will be very supportive. If he doesnt then people, including the silver fox, will continue to favour Besty. Just the way it is.

 

Bit like the Santon situation. The screams for him to replace Taylor have died down, however when his chance comes he may defend well on his own and free up Jonas to attack.

 

No shit, Sherlock. If your comment to every situation is that Pardew/the manager will be the decider then every thread on here and every football thread on every football or any sports forum is useless.

 

Everyone wants us to win. Everyone wants us to develop into a good football team; one that is fun to watch, hard to beat and is able to compete. That's something that's so obvious that it doesn't need to be mentioned. Most of us have different opinions about our players and it's interesting to hear what different fans think about each player, regardless of whether the manager agrees or not.

 

The managers view was just chucked in there due to your opening dramatic statement...."I just dont understand this, lets bench...".

 

Maybe you were just being over dramatic. 

 

It shouldnt be too hard to understand that a lot of fans share the same view as the manager.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

[Taylor Swift]

Yes I agree with your main point (though not about my analogies) in that we need to balance hard workers with skilled players. Most of our starting eleven are hard working. I would say all, actually, when Best starts. So there's room to sacrifice some running for some sublime skill, especially when that sublime skill is the difference between 0 and 1 point, and 1 and 3 points. As hardworking as most teams in the league are, they still end up with zero points when they go away to the Manc clubs. But if we had that skill in our team, that someone who could conjure up a goal or two out of nothing, who knows, maybe we'd be able to sneak something there.

 

I'm just saying Ben Arfa is the type of player you build your team around, so I don't even flinch when I realise that someone like Best has to be sacrificed for him. Same with vDv at Spurs. He's won them 3 or 4 matches this season and he contributes fuck all to their defending, but he's been the difference for them which is why they sacrifice a hardworking player to play him. Your point about Adebayor is actually good but the key to their team has been vDv, not Adebayor.

[wormy]

So, basically, we won't really know just how well certain players will work together until we see it attempted in a match. But it'd be a bit harsh to do so whilst we're on such a fantastic run? Sweet.

[Baggio]

The reason they don't need someone to hold the ball up is because they have players who are good at controlling the ball and have good technique, so they are able to play the game in the opposition's half. Ben Arfa has sublime skills on the ball and is probably the player that is hardest to get the ball from because he's agile, quick and is so technically good. Ergo, we should play him, because like Jonas, he can help relieve pressure. There are many ways of relieving pressure. Players like Cabaye help us relieve pressure because they are composed on the ball and they don't give it away needlessly. Jonas helps us relieve pressure by being a willing runner with the ball and being someone who doesn't lose the ball without being fouled. Ben Arfa has the same skills as Jonas. He plays a riskier game but he's only done so when the risk was worth taking. I think you've come to a seriously fast conclusion on Ben Arfa's tendencies based on his eagerness to impress when he came on against Spurs, which is a shame because playing the likes of Ben Arfa and Marveaux is the best way to become a team that's able to maintain constant pressure on the opposition team, thus negating the need for a striker who can hold the ball up. You're heading into the wrong direction if you think we need to play Best to hold up the ball and relieve pressure. We need to play Ben Arfa because he's able to dribble past players with ease and by constantly doing this, defenders will back off and thus the pressure will be on the opposition, and not us. That's how we will become a good team. Doing the old having a big striker to hold up play thing isn't the solution and it's obvious that it isn't because none of the better footballing teams on the continent do this. Even a team like Chelsea, when they played Drogba alone up front, was much more technical and Drogba himself is extremely talented. Ba is far more like him than Best because Ba has good control, a decent turn of pace and is also willing to run the channels.

 

Drogba was excellent at relieving pressure for Chelsea and everything went through him being the head of the team so I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

 

You say the better footballing teams in Europe do this but we're not one of them, we don't have the quality of players to be one of them and would get dissected if we tried to play that way, so we do what's effective for us and stick with the solid forward that soaks up all of the pressure and can bring our other players into play from there. If you look at how we played under Robson with Shearer relieving the pressure from the team with the quicker and technical players swarming around and it's similar to the role Best is playing now.

 

Your opinion that Ben Arfa will dribble past players to relieve pressure is all well and good when it comes off but when it doesn't we're instantly back under pressure and that's how it's been for every game he's featured up top for us, is he suddenly going to stop giving the ball away when he's up to speed? Well no and people have already pointed out when defending him that you're going to have to accept that he's going to lose it a lot while trying to be creative.

 

Shearer as the hold up man worked excellent, Drogba in that role worked for Chelsea, Adebayor is making that role work at Spurs and most importantly Best is making that role work for us and until it doesn't there is no reason at all to change it.

 

Shearer and Drogba had great technique and good enough close control to be able to maintain possession when pressured. Ba is more like them than Best is.

 

And again, you're judging Ben Arfa on 180 minutes of football. I think you're being way too hasty. He doesn't have a record or history of losing the ball in key positions. People have said that he takes risks sometimes but he's not the type to take risks in the middle of the park. Look at the Everton match for a good example of what he can do on the ball and how he can help us relieve pressure. I think he lost the ball a few times in that match but all were when taking risks which were worth taking. He wasn't trying to take on the whole team from the halfway line like he tried to do twice against Spurs. I think the Spurs game is a complete one-off and will quickly be forgotten if Ben Arfa has a chance to start many games in a row and get back up to speed.

 

I think Ben Arfa would be even better when we're not forced to score a goal because he'll have loads more space to operate in. Again, the Everton match is a good example of how he can affect a game when he's fully fit, whereas in the Spurs match he came on when Spurs were defending with 9 or at times 10 men and he looked short of sharpness.

 

Best's close control is excellent, it's one of the strongest parts of his game now and it's superior to Ba's.

 

I'm not judging him on 180 minutes of football but it's interesting that you accuse me of judging him on such a short period yet you want me to judge him on the one good game he's had for us in a completely different position.

 

The questions hanging over him are can he form a partnership with Ba, is he capable of getting the amount of goals in that position and are we good enough to carry him when he's having an off day and until he plays and proves to us that he can make us a better team then we're going to go around in circles.

 

As I've said before I'd love him to come in and make us even better but until it happens my doubts will remain.

[Baggio]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

[Flip]

Sounds like Best has been excellent the whole season...Best is undroppable. Ben Arfa and Ba to fight for the spot next to Best.

[Flip]

Nothing this season suggests that Best is better in holding up the ball better than Ba. Actually Ba drops deeper and holds up the ball more often than Best and brings other into play. Best on the other hand wins more headers and is crafty up top with his hardwork. But I have rarely seen his hold up play result in a goal for us. He usually gets at the end of stuff to score and his hold up play is limited as he always plays it back to someone while Ba at times turns his defenders.

 

I think its not more than fair for Best to get a starting role on Saturday, but I just can't see how much longer he'll stay there if we don't get wins. And if he plays like he did at Stoke for the remainder of the season he'll be there, but if he doesn't and plays like he has for 50% of his matches this season I can't see Pardew keeping Ben Arfa on the bench. Players have come out and said that Barfa is fantastically talent, now its all about getting it shown on matchday and getting match fitness up. I have no doubt that he'll be starting every match from January on if his fitness permits.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

 

Excellent point, if Ben Arfa had stuck to his line while he was playing on the wing.

 

In truth, he pretty much drifted inside the whole time. There are specific comments from different users on this forum, in that Everton match thread, recognising how notable it was that his best work came through the middle. Just look at some of the runs he's done, the 2 most notable, have set up clear as day goal scoring chances for Carroll and Lovenkrands and that's in the tiny space of a couple of games. Imagine what he could do over a season.

[Taylor Swift]

For what it's worth, I'm judging Ben Arfa on what he's done in his whole career whereas you're judging him on 180 minutes of unfit football with the most recent minutes being ones in which we needed a goal and thus needed him to do something special; not exactly an ideal situation that you'd throw someone who's been out for over a year into.

 

And Felipao makes another good point re: Best. He hasn't been amazing. He's had good games and bad games. He's contributed in some games, but he's been quiet for many other games. Even against Wolves, I thought he had a quiet game even though Jonas should have scored from his cross and Ba should have finished his pass. But otherwise I thought he didn't have the best of games.

 

I think in general we're not creating enough clear-cut chances and having someone like Ben Arfa will be beneficial in the long-run because of the many reasons that a bunch of people have mentioned. He'll create more chances and more goals than he'll cost us by not working or running hard enough, and we'll end up in a better position with him starting over Best.

[Pilko]

Best on the other hand wins more headers and is crafty up top with his hardwork. But I have rarely seen his hold up play result in a goal for us.

 

You must have been licking the gravy off your dinner plate during a lot of key goal moments this season, then.

[Taylor Swift]

Nothing this season suggests that Best is better in holding up the ball better than Ba. Actually Ba drops deeper and holds up the ball more often than Best and brings other into play. Best on the other hand wins more headers and is crafty up top with his hardwork. But I have rarely seen his hold up play result in a goal for us. He usually gets at the end of stuff to score and his hold up play is limited as he always plays it back to someone while Ba at times turns his defenders.

 

I think its not more than fair for Best to get a starting role on Saturday, but I just can't see how much longer he'll stay there if we don't get wins. And if he plays like he did at Stoke for the remainder of the season he'll be there, but if he doesn't and plays like he has for 50% of his matches this season I can't see Pardew keeping Ben Arfa on the bench. Players have come out and said that Barfa is fantastically talent, now its all about getting it shown on matchday and getting match fitness up. I have no doubt that he'll be starting every match from January on if his fitness permits.

 

Massive

 

The only doubt I have about Ben Arfa is whether he'll recover his ability. If he does then he's the best player at the club.

[Flip]

Best on the other hand wins more headers and is crafty up top with his hardwork. But I have rarely seen his hold up play result in a goal for us.

 

You must have been licking the gravy off your dinner plate during a lot of key goal moments this season, then.

 

Let me ask you, was Best involvement in Ba's goals against Stoke and Blackburn because of hid hold up play? If not, then no I was not licking the gravy off my dinner plate.

[Sifu]

Of course, in Pards we trust!

 

[Sifu]

My eyes hurt afetr reading this page

 

I can't do it anymore. I remember when this thread used to be fun.

 

[Baggio]

Yes I agree with your main point (though not about my analogies) in that we need to balance hard workers with skilled players. Most of our starting eleven are hard working. I would say all, actually, when Best starts. So there's room to sacrifice some running for some sublime skill, especially when that sublime skill is the difference between 0 and 1 point, and 1 and 3 points. As hardworking as most teams in the league are, they still end up with zero points when they go away to the Manc clubs. But if we had that skill in our team, that someone who could conjure up a goal or two out of nothing, who knows, maybe we'd be able to sneak something there.

 

I'm just saying Ben Arfa is the type of player you build your team around, so I don't even flinch when I realise that someone like Best has to be sacrificed for him. Same with vDv at Spurs. He's won them 3 or 4 matches this season and he contributes fuck all to their defending, but he's been the difference for them which is why they sacrifice a hardworking player to play him. Your point about Adebayor is actually good but the key to their team has been vDv, not Adebayor.

 

I agree with your point on VDV, however the thing with him for me he's just so much more naturally suited to the role in that he's not particularly greedy, he knows when to try something flash and when to keep it simple and most importantly he has a great footballing brain in that he's a thinking man's footballer, all of this helps him look so comfortable in the role but not only that it's allowed him to build up a great understanding with his team mates who know if they make the run or find space then he will find them rather than attempting to do it all on his own.

 

While Ben Arfa is far better at gliding past players I don't think he's in the same league for having the attributes to play in that position personally and more of an enigma.

[Christmas Tree]

Not an anti Ben Arfa post 

 

Sometimes the problem with very skilful footballers with lightening football brains is that more average players struggle to be able to know whats going to come off.

 

I used to notice this at different times with Beardsley and Gazza.

 

Not an anti Ben Arfa post