Alan Pardew

[ChezGiven]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

Assuming I was one of the 'both' you referred to, it's a straw man when you're claiming to know what I believe and pasting me into some kind of brigade, despite me not actually posting anything of the sort. What I've posted isn't actually radically different to what you have either.

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

 

So you defend someone's right to an opinion unless that opinion is that a position is 'utter nonsense'? There's a straw man for you.

 

I also fundamentally disagree with your dismisal of logic as a guide to discussion. If people are free to shoe-horn bizarre decision-making practices into something quite straighforward and repeated at most other clubs across the country, why am i not free to say i think its nonsense?

[Dave]

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

 

You could pretty much post this about twenty times a day (minimum) throughout the board.

 

I agree, Ronaldo is a very prolific poster.

[Stu]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

Assuming I was one of the 'both' you referred to, it's a straw man when you're claiming to know what I believe and pasting me into some kind of brigade, despite me not actually posting anything of the sort. What I've posted isn't actually radically different to what you have either.

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

 

So you defend someone's right to an opinion unless that opinion is that a position is 'utter nonsense'? There's a straw man for you.

 

I also fundamentally disagree with your dismisal of logic as a guide to discussion. If people are free to shoe-horn bizarre decision-making practices into something quite straighforward and repeated at most other clubs across the country, why am i not free to say i think its nonsense?

 

Be fair to Dave, he's still struggling to reconcile his disgust/apathy towards the owner and the enthusiasm for what's happening on the pitch.

 

 

[Dave]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

Assuming I was one of the 'both' you referred to, it's a straw man when you're claiming to know what I believe and pasting me into some kind of brigade, despite me not actually posting anything of the sort. What I've posted isn't actually radically different to what you have either.

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

 

So you defend someone's right to an opinion unless that opinion is that a position is 'utter nonsense'? There's a straw man for you.

 

I also fundamentally disagree with your dismisal of logic as a guide to discussion. If people are free to shoe-horn bizarre decision-making practices into something quite straighforward and repeated at most other clubs across the country, why am i not free to say i think its nonsense?

 

Small point, but you didn't say it was your opinion. You dismissed his post outright, as though it is categorically incorrect and you know this as fact. All I did was point out that I thought it a bit strong, added some possible reasoning and asked if you had inside knowledge and suddenly I'm part of some 'brigade' (another derogatory description) who believes Pardew has no input whatsoever. I also get the feeling you believe posters on this forum are below you, forgive me if am I wrong.

 

I'm going to bow out here, your debate was with Minhosa not me.

[STM]

Im quite happy with our transfer policy, i'd just like them to make more signings and not promise things without delivering.

 

Not fussed either way whether Pardew has a say or not, so long as the system works and all parties are happy with it (including Pardew).

 

By the way i firmly believe Ba was Pardew's choice, this would suggest that he has some say.

[TRon]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

Assuming I was one of the 'both' you referred to, it's a straw man when you're claiming to know what I believe and pasting me into some kind of brigade, despite me not actually posting anything of the sort. What I've posted isn't actually radically different to what you have either.

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

 

So you defend someone's right to an opinion unless that opinion is that a position is 'utter nonsense'? There's a straw man for you.

 

I also fundamentally disagree with your dismisal of logic as a guide to discussion. If people are free to shoe-horn bizarre decision-making practices into something quite straighforward and repeated at most other clubs across the country, why am i not free to say i think its nonsense?

 

Be fair to Dave, he's still struggling to reconcile his disgust/apathy towards the owner and the enthusiasm for what's happening on the pitch.

 

 

 

At least Dave's coming to terms with it. Imagine the dilemma of someone like Eric who has been lambasting the hypocrites who support Ashley's regime by going to games - that's a strange one actually as NE5 would probably agree with him yet he'd be one of the hypocrites

 

If we have a great season and play good football at least Eric will be right and season ticket holders wrong. That'll teach them!

[Minhosa]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

How do you know there's only three people?

I counted them.

 

You've been in France too long bonnie lad.

[ChezGiven]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

Assuming I was one of the 'both' you referred to, it's a straw man when you're claiming to know what I believe and pasting me into some kind of brigade, despite me not actually posting anything of the sort. What I've posted isn't actually radically different to what you have either.

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

 

So you defend someone's right to an opinion unless that opinion is that a position is 'utter nonsense'? There's a straw man for you.

 

I also fundamentally disagree with your dismisal of logic as a guide to discussion. If people are free to shoe-horn bizarre decision-making practices into something quite straighforward and repeated at most other clubs across the country, why am i not free to say i think its nonsense?

 

Small point, but you didn't say it was your opinion. You dismissed his post outright, as though it is categorically incorrect and you know this as fact. All I did was point out that I thought it a bit strong, added some possible reasoning and asked if you had inside knowledge and suddenly I'm part of some 'brigade' (another derogatory description) who believes Pardew has no input whatsoever. I also get the feeling you believe posters on this forum are below you, forgive me if am I wrong.

 

I'm going to bow out here, your debate was with Minhosa not me.

So in exchange for saying something (which clearly is) is nonsense, i get aggressive, condescending and this forum is beneath me. No you cant bow out after saying that, if that last statement was correct can you explain to me why i would argue my case and why it was nonsense?

 

Doesnt make any sense that. Oh wait...

[Stu]

Chasing a lost cause Chez, Dave knows when to cut and run.

[Guest TheSummerOf69]

I reckon it'll be a case of Pardew saying what area he wants, Carr going out to find it, Pardew says yes or no before Llambias has final say on fees, wages, etc. How the Keegan/Wise thing should have worked really.

 

The reason KK resigned was that he didn't get to say no to Xisco / Nancho.

 

One thing I really like about him, is his honesty in post match interviews.

 

I agree.

 

Pardew is hopefully aware that, with the team doing so well, the biggest block between him and the supporters is the bullshit and is now making an effort to be honest.

[BottledDog]

I liked him as a manager and a personality before he came here, and I'm pleased to see that he's doing pretty well so far.

 

I'm sure he would have got some credit a lot quicker if he hadn't come in to replace Chris Hughton, who was treated appallingly. He's also the right kind of character to work with Ashley and Llambias, as he's clever enough to realise that it's better for him to keep his disagreements with the board behind the scenes and try (as much as possible) to present a united front. He knows when to swallow his pride for the good of the club and of course his own career. Some people might think that's spineless, I just think it's smart.

 

Obviously the great signings (which I'm not sure he had much to do with, at least initially) and the excellent start to the season help a lot.

 

Everyone obviously thinks this but my instinct is that its all Pardew. I have had the discussion on Toontastic with posters who claim that Pardew is just a puppet. The logical extension of that position is that Derek Llambias is a footballing genius. Llambias either allow millions of clubs £'s be spent (gross not net) on the advice of a scout (who has got it spot on so Llambias' footballing judgement is sound), takes the decisions himself  or its Pardew. In the scenario where its not Pardew, you either have Llambias making the decision himself or preferring the counsel of a scout over a manager who is on close terms with the owner.

 

Not wanting to get all Sherlock Holmes (eliminate the impossible etc) but i reckon its Pardew making all the decisions bar the financial ones. People create fictional narratives about puppet managers and evil plans when the reality is more mundane. Pardew is the manager and makes the footballing decisions, any other scenario is not credible as it means someone else is making some great decisions and the only candidate for that is Llambias.

 

Why is there such fear in saying Llambias' footballing judgement is sound?

 

I doubt he has much do do with the signings beyond the rather critical responsibility of initiating, negotiating, and finalising the deals alongside Charnley, but beyond that, in the last couple of years the staff appointed from the first team level to the kids all seem to be sound, as is his willingness to invest in facilities and even allow little things like putting the development squad on a private jet to swansea rather than the usual day on a coach.

Few would say he's an endearing character (putting it mildly), but it may be a little churlish not to acknowledge that his handling of the football side of the club since the drop has been sound, if not more than sound.

I wasnt trying to do down Llambias am just saying its far more likely he has delegated footballing decisions (like signing Cabaye!) to Pardew. I'm making the point that the accusation of him being a puppet dont stack up otherwise you have this very vague notion that the final decision to sign Cabaye was taken by an ex-casino manager.

 

Fair do's. The rubber stamp on any deal remains with the chairman or owner obviously, but yes, I agree that it's Pardew that will have made the final recommendation to sign a player/players (Carr himself has given us a detailed run down of the process).

[alpal78]

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

 

You could pretty much post this about twenty times a day (minimum) throughout the board.

 

It only really matters to Dave when the poster posting 'aggressively' does so in support of a view contrary to what Dave believes in i.e. any attempt to give Pardew and the board more credit that Dave think he/they deserve. If it's someone running down the evil regime, they can be as aggressive as they want as long as they don't start cursing.

[ChezGiven]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

How do you know there's only three people?

I counted them.

 

You've been in France too long bonnie lad.

 

To paraphrase' I get the feeling that you think people living in France are beneath you'

[Minhosa]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

How do you know there's only three people?

I counted them.

 

You've been in France too long bonnie lad.

 

To paraphrase' I get the feeling that you think people living in France are beneath you'

 

- more that you seem to be throwing a strop over some trivial difference of opinion.

 

You'll be off on strike next.

[OzzieMandias]

Alas, the idea that Pardew is not simply "a puppet" is still tinged with heresy around here.

 

Reconciling the reality of our excellent start to the season with the notion that everything the Ashley regime does is an unmitigated disaster obviously involves some tricky mental contortions. It's hardly surprising that logic comes a cropper.

[ChezGiven]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

How do you know there's only three people?

I counted them.

 

You've been in France too long bonnie lad.

 

To paraphrase' I get the feeling that you think people living in France are beneath you'

 

- more that you seem to be throwing a strop over some trivial difference of opinion.

 

You'll be off on strike next.

What do you think am doing on here all day!

 

Not meant to be stroppy just robust in my views, i dont think it makes sense but fair dos, its all about opinions. Not sure its trivial either, its pretty fundamental to how Pardew is perceived. I think he's done a great job in exceptionally difficult circumstances and deserves someone to argue his case in the face of some fairly illogical (imo) views on his 'puppet status'

[Minhosa]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

How do you know there's only three people?

I counted them.

 

You've been in France too long bonnie lad.

 

To paraphrase' I get the feeling that you think people living in France are beneath you'

 

- more that you seem to be throwing a strop over some trivial difference of opinion.

 

You'll be off on strike next.

What do you think am doing on here all day!

 

Not meant to be stroppy just robust in my views, i dont think it makes sense but fair dos, its all about opinions. Not sure its trivial either, its pretty fundamental to how Pardew is perceived. I think he's done a great job in exceptionally difficult circumstances and deserves someone to argue his case in the face of some fairly illogical (imo) views on his 'puppet status'

 

There's plenty of people who'll argue his case on here until they're blue in the face, so you needn't worry about that.

 

It's trivial in the context of never actually knowing so our 'he's the main man/he's a puppet' discussion is largely irrelevant.

 

I'm not saying he's got zero influence but there's no way I think he's got control/more than a smattering.

 

Also, it's an easier argument to have when results are going well, but there's been more than a few occasions to question his integrity.

 

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Minhosa, I'm not sure your "we can't know so it's irrelevant" argument is a good one. If we could only discuss things we knew as facts this would be a short forum. Also, you then go on to say what you think about it, is that irrelevant since you don't know for a fact?

[Minhosa]

Minhosa, I'm not sure your "we can't know so it's irrelevant" argument is a good one. If we could only discuss things we knew as facts this would be a short forum. Also, you then go on to say what you think about it, is that irrelevant since you don't know for a fact?

 

Of course my opinion is irrelevant - what would I know about the clubs structure for dealing with transfers? About the same as anybody else on here.

 

The idea of a forum is to shoot the shit but it doesn't make either of our opinions more factually correct.

 

I have a view as does Chez but I'd say it's unlikely we'll see either of them verified anytime soon.

[ChezGiven]

Mine is based on better logic though.

[Baggio]

I think ChezGiven's opinion is the most logical and the one that I believe to be correct.

 

Ultimately the final decision rests with Llambias as it does with any chairman in the league but that's from a financial position rather than a football one, however someone will have to feed them those names and I envision a scenario where Carr comes up with a list of names, Pardew watches the players recommended and shortlists them into players he thinks are acceptable and then Llambias moves forward on all of the shortlisted to get the one that is the best deal for the club.

[Sifu]

I reckon it'll be a case of Pardew saying what area he wants, Carr going out to find it, Pardew says yes or no before Llambias has final say on fees, wages, etc. How the Keegan/Wise thing should have worked really.

 

Aye, I think this is how the "system" works too.

[Minhosa]

I think ChezGiven's opinion is the most logical and the one that I believe to be correct.

 

Ultimately the final decision rests with Llambias as it does with any chairman in the league but that's from a financial position rather than a football one, however someone will have to feed them those names and I envision a scenario where Carr comes up with a list of names, Pardew watches the players recommended and shortlists them into players he thinks are acceptable and then Llambias moves forward on all of the shortlisted to get the one that is the best deal for the club.

 

Which is what I said - but my opinion is that the aspirations of Llambias/the club are far more heavily weighted than anything Pardew has to bring to the table.

 

His wants/needs/desires are largely irrelevant if the 'upside/risk' box isn't ticked.

 

[TRon]

I think ChezGiven's opinion is the most logical and the one that I believe to be correct.

 

Ultimately the final decision rests with Llambias as it does with any chairman in the league but that's from a financial position rather than a football one, however someone will have to feed them those names and I envision a scenario where Carr comes up with a list of names, Pardew watches the players recommended and shortlists them into players he thinks are acceptable and then Llambias moves forward on all of the shortlisted to get the one that is the best deal for the club.

 

The argument whether Pardew is a puppet is probably the wrong ground to pick for a fight for the Ashley bashers, there's probably more scope to focus on your last sentence there. I do get pissed off when we seem to let good deals slip through our fingers because we want to buy players at only bargain prices and low wages after selling players for big money ourselves. But then I'm a fan and the owner will see things differently. But the general model of shifting older, high maintenance players like Nolan and Barton, and replacing them with younger players with high potential is a good one IMO.

[Baggio]

I think ChezGiven's opinion is the most logical and the one that I believe to be correct.

 

Ultimately the final decision rests with Llambias as it does with any chairman in the league but that's from a financial position rather than a football one, however someone will have to feed them those names and I envision a scenario where Carr comes up with a list of names, Pardew watches the players recommended and shortlists them into players he thinks are acceptable and then Llambias moves forward on all of the shortlisted to get the one that is the best deal for the club.

 

Which is what I said - but my opinion is that the aspirations of Llambias/the club are far more heavily weighted than anything Pardew has to bring to the table.

 

His wants/needs/desires are largely irrelevant if the 'upside/risk' box isn't ticked.

 

But isn't that the same for any club? The men holding the purse strings will always have the final say?