Ishmael Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 We weren't outplayed for any prolonged periods yesterday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Fair enough. We clearly created the better chances and more of them, but in general play I felt they passed it about impressively including some brilliant cross-field switches. When they knocked one straight out late on I said to the bloke next to me that if was one of the first basic passing errors I could remember them making all match. We were chasing shadows far too often, the fact that many people have James Perch as their man of the match tells you everything. Absolutely. Of course because we won people will come up with lots of stats to try and convince us we didn't see what we saw, but the truth is the difference between the two teams were the strikers. Like I said earlier in this thread, if Norwich had Ba and Cisse they would have beaten us comfortably because they were superior everywhere else on the pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 i'll retract this bit: "and being outplayed in most games on their home turf" and make the point that we can't outplay teams on our home turf often enough more often than not when i see home games nowadays the away team is playing the better football Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Out of all the one players who scored a goal in the game, one of them was Newcastle player. That's very relevant to the topic of passing, cheers. Quite pertinent to the topic of winning football matches, which Alan Pardew (the perosn being discussed in this thread) is paid to do. Just broadening the debate is all I don't think anyone's debating that we won the game. Could've fooled me. We beat a confident Norwich side. Who don't forget, beat us 4-2 last time out. The point discussed is how we seem to win games by solitary goals usually dependent on some outstanding play by one of of Cisse, Ba or HBA instead of teamwork with a coherent formation and tactics (unless you consider the hoofing in the second half as tactics). The problem with the model that we are adopting is that we don't dominate games and can at anytime lose/draw games that in theory we should/can win. It also gives us next to zero chance (Man Utd game aside) of taking points of the top 4-6 teams even at home, which is what we should be targeting if we are serious on getting into Europe. Maybe some will have to wait till we get a tonking from Liverpool for the penny to drop. Dependant on outstanding play? Cant really say that in this example when Cisse missed more sitters than class goals he scored. We dont dominate games no, it hasnt made us less likely to lose/draw games than we should win in theory. Look back at the season, bar unusual circumstances we pretty much win every game you'd expect under Pardew. I made a thread on this yesterday. We definately do less well against the top 7 but its to be expected. Which games so far against them would you have expected more from us? Swansea at home, Wolves at home, Sunderland at home, West Brom at home. Definately more points on offer in those games. Wolves/Sunderland yeah & individual circumstances still decided those games. Swansea/Wbrom i wouldnt say we could have expected much more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 "We have been a little bit unlucky in the last few weeks and it was just great to get back to three points," Krul told nufc.co.uk. "Today was a game we had to win, and we did just that. It was a really important win, especially with the run we have been on. "The thing the manager said was to try and get a goal in the first 10-15 minutes, because that would make it easier. Interesting quote from Krul. They definately went for it for that period of time & then relaxed to much after the goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Out of all the one players who scored a goal in the game, one of them was Newcastle player. That's very relevant to the topic of passing, cheers. Quite pertinent to the topic of winning football matches, which Alan Pardew (the perosn being discussed in this thread) is paid to do. Just broadening the debate is all I don't think anyone's debating that we won the game. Could've fooled me. We beat a confident Norwich side. Who don't forget, beat us 4-2 last time out. The point discussed is how we seem to win games by solitary goals usually dependent on some outstanding play by one of of Cisse, Ba or HBA instead of teamwork with a coherent formation and tactics (unless you consider the hoofing in the second half as tactics). The problem with the model that we are adopting is that we don't dominate games and can at anytime lose/draw games that in theory we should/can win. It also gives us next to zero chance (Man Utd game aside) of taking points of the top 4-6 teams even at home, which is what we should be targeting if we are serious on getting into Europe. Maybe some will have to wait till we get a tonking from Liverpool for the penny to drop. Dependant on outstanding play? Cant really say that in this example when Cisse missed more sitters than class goals he scored. We dont dominate games no, it hasnt made us less likely to lose/draw games than we should win in theory. Look back at the season, bar unusual circumstances we pretty much win every game you'd expect under Pardew. I made a thread on this yesterday. We definately do less well against the top 7 but its to be expected. Which games so far against them would you have expected more from us? Swansea at home, Wolves at home, Sunderland at home, West Brom at home. Definately more points on offer in those games. Wolves/Sunderland yeah & individual circumstances still decided those games. Swansea/Wbrom i wouldnt say we could have expected much more. We drew 0-0 with Swansea and lost 2-3 against West Brom at home. Both teams currently ranked 8th and 12th respectively. Maybe we just have different expectations, if we are targeting Europe and beyond, using Pip's formula in the OP of the "Battle for 7th" thread, these are teams that we should be beating at home. I'm curious why you think we couldn't (shouldn't?) expect more than a total 1 point out of the potential 6 on offer?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Who are these missing players that will bring balance and have us firing on all cylinders. Raylor? What rhetorical guff. His post-match responses often don't correlate imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The last thing u can criticize pardew us his record against the weaker teams. He is the best since Bobby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 The last thing u can criticize pardew us his record against the weaker teams. He is the best since Bobby. Not a great honour tbh given that after SBR, we had jokers/fraud like Fat Sam and Souness managing the club. If we continue playing defensive hoofball against these weaker teams even at home, there is a reasonably high chance of us screwing things up(i.e. West Brom, Swanswa, Wolves and Sunderland) which would hurt our chances for Europe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Why? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 classic NO forum "debate" going on again: Group A: results have been good, performances poor and ultimately that's likely to lead to poorer results unless pardew changes his tactics and selections in the long run... Group B: we're 6th man, you can't criticize pardew for results, it's a disgrace to even think of that Group A: agree that results are good, saying that in future they're likely to not be good anymore Group B: but results are good, we're 6th man repeat until pardew is fired Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deadmau5 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Funny how some people claim Simpson/williamson and Raylor etc are the reason we hoof it. If they are such weak links, why are they undroppable, being handed new contracts and touted as key players? Its because *drumroll* Pardew rates them, they fit into his system. We may very well get new defenders as those in charge and actually have a f***ing say about who we bring in, see our defense as a weak link. But it wont make the tiniest difference,how we play now is he we are going to play for the foreseeable future. He has been here for 1.5 years now and the fotball isnt getting better, its getting worse. With better players. How can you not see that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 classic NO forum "debate" going on again: Group A: results have been good, performances poor and ultimately that's likely to lead to poorer results unless pardew changes his tactics and selections in the long run... Group B: we're 6th man, you can't criticize pardew for results, it's a disgrace to even think of that Group A: agree that results are good, saying that in future they're likely to not be good anymore Group B: but results are good, we're 6th man repeat until pardew is fired We have a seasons worth of performances that show little correlation between possession/domination & results in comparison to the importance of simply having a very strong defensive system and attackers that will do enough to get the points. If teams have a very hard time scoring against you & you are good at putting the ball in the net, you will win games against most sides. Pardew has put in place the defensive system that achieves that & bought the attackers that do the business the other side. In what way is it likely that this will suddenly stop working? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Out of all the one players who scored a goal in the game, one of them was Newcastle player. That's very relevant to the topic of passing, cheers. Quite pertinent to the topic of winning football matches, which Alan Pardew (the perosn being discussed in this thread) is paid to do. Just broadening the debate is all I don't think anyone's debating that we won the game. Could've fooled me. We beat a confident Norwich side. Who don't forget, beat us 4-2 last time out. The point discussed is how we seem to win games by solitary goals usually dependent on some outstanding play by one of of Cisse, Ba or HBA instead of teamwork with a coherent formation and tactics (unless you consider the hoofing in the second half as tactics). The problem with the model that we are adopting is that we don't dominate games and can at anytime lose/draw games that in theory we should/can win. It also gives us next to zero chance (Man Utd game aside) of taking points of the top 4-6 teams even at home, which is what we should be targeting if we are serious on getting into Europe. Maybe some will have to wait till we get a tonking from Liverpool for the penny to drop. Dependant on outstanding play? Cant really say that in this example when Cisse missed more sitters than class goals he scored. We dont dominate games no, it hasnt made us less likely to lose/draw games than we should win in theory. Look back at the season, bar unusual circumstances we pretty much win every game you'd expect under Pardew. I made a thread on this yesterday. We definately do less well against the top 7 but its to be expected. Which games so far against them would you have expected more from us? Swansea at home, Wolves at home, Sunderland at home, West Brom at home. Definately more points on offer in those games. Wolves/Sunderland yeah & individual circumstances still decided those games. Swansea/Wbrom i wouldnt say we could have expected much more. We drew 0-0 with Swansea and lost 2-3 against West Brom at home. Both teams currently ranked 8th and 12th respectively. Maybe we just have different expectations, if we are targeting Europe and beyond, using Pip's formula in the OP of the "Battle for 7th" thread, these are teams that we should be beating at home. I'm curious why you think we couldn't (shouldn't?) expect more than a total 1 point out of the potential 6 on offer?? You'd expect to win looking at them yeah. Swansea achieved their lowest poss all season in our game, went all out defence & theyre hard enough to score against when they dont do that as Man city found out. If you remember there was barely any space in the box atall, Ba had to do acrobatic overheads to get a shot that wasnt blocked & it was still saved. He also hit the post. Dont think we could have done much more. West Brom was just our defense for me due to having 1 Cb. 2 goals should be enough to get points from a game. Only Spurs/Arsenal/Swansea have put 3 past wbrom all season & swansea needed a penalty. So that leaves 2 sides who managed it & theyre 2 of the best attacking sides in the league. Possible to do? Yes. But no chance can we expect it. We just conceded to many. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deadmau5 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 classic NO forum "debate" going on again: Group A: results have been good, performances poor and ultimately that's likely to lead to poorer results unless pardew changes his tactics and selections in the long run... Group B: we're 6th man, you can't criticize pardew for results, it's a disgrace to even think of that Group A: agree that results are good, saying that in future they're likely to not be good anymore Group B: but results are good, we're 6th man repeat until pardew is fired We have a seasons worth of performances that show little correlation between possession/domination & results in comparison to the importance of simply having a very strong defensive system and attackers that will do enough to get the points. If teams have a very hard time scoring against you & you are good at putting the ball in the net, you will win games against most sides. Pardew has put in place the defensive system that achieves that & bought the attackers that do the business the other side. In what way is it likely that this will suddenly stop working? It will stop working because we play with very little margin, and the other teams strikers are usually the difference between three and zero points. Bluntly said, it leaves things to sheer chance. We are 29 games in, but I would still claim that our luck this season has been above average. Come next season I can see similar performances ending up vastly different resultswise. The fact that he was reluctant to change the team that did so well the first 12-13 matches indicates one thing - he had no clue what caused the results. Its a cowardly hands-off approach that implied that he was basically crossing his fingers for it to continue. If he did, he wouldnt have hesitated improving on his squad by using better players when they became available, Ben Arfa case in point. To put it this way, Would Real Madrid win the majority of their games without Ronaldo? Man Utd without Rooney? Yes they probably would, most definately actually. Still, Ferguson and Mourinho would have no qualms easeing them back into the squad the second they were fit again. Why? Because they are better fotballers than the ones they replace, and therefore they make the team better. That doesnt upset a system. It improves it. You start your best players, simple as. Oh, and before anyone try the cheap point of ridiculing me for comparing Ronaldo and Rooney to Ben Arfa. The point is relevant because he is one of our best players, just like they are for their respective teams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 classic NO forum "debate" going on again: Group A: results have been good, performances poor and ultimately that's likely to lead to poorer results unless pardew changes his tactics and selections in the long run... Group B: we're 6th man, you can't criticize pardew for results, it's a disgrace to even think of that Group A: agree that results are good, saying that in future they're likely to not be good anymore Group B: but results are good, we're 6th man repeat until pardew is fired We have a seasons worth of performances that show little correlation between possession/domination & results in comparison to the importance of simply having a very strong defensive system and attackers that will do enough to get the points. If teams have a very hard time scoring against you & you are good at putting the ball in the net, you will win games against most sides. Pardew has put in place the defensive system that achieves that & bought the attackers that do the business the other side. In what way is it likely that this will suddenly stop working? you've mentioned the two parts of pardew's gameplan which i agree is essentially the basis of his approach, then you ask how will it suddenly stop working? i'll tell you how; given the inherent complexity of the plan all it takes is for either the defence to become more porous or the attackers to be unable to keep scoring from the scraps they're given by launching the ball up the field every single time it's a system that requires both to work all of the time, if you have a system and approach that includes the midfield doing creative things and the team as a whole coached to build attacks together through passing football then that adds another dimension that has to fail completely before results start going south it's fairly simple Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deadmau5 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 One thing I have reflected on a bit is how we base our entire strategy on a frankly shit defence. So my first thought was to relieve it of as much pressure as possible, seeing as our midfield ( picked correctly) and our attack is possibly one of the best in the entire league ( City excepted). The less they have to do, the better they will look. Instead we try to base our entire strategy on everyone else protecting the back four. That doesnt adress the fact that when put under pressure, Simpson, Williamson,Raylor or Perch will end up being 1v1 against the best attackers in the league, and they will blow it - because they arent good enough. If we had a back four of Mourinho-quality it would have made sense. Be impossible to break down and just counter with Ben arfa, Ba and Cisse lurking up the pitch. But with us its more likely to end up in tears and with a royal spanking against the better teams who put away their chances. It has worked until now, but It simply isnt going to work over the long run. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 classic NO forum "debate" going on again: Group A: results have been good, performances poor and ultimately that's likely to lead to poorer results unless pardew changes his tactics and selections in the long run... Group B: we're 6th man, you can't criticize pardew for results, it's a disgrace to even think of that Group A: agree that results are good, saying that in future they're likely to not be good anymore Group B: but results are good, we're 6th man repeat until pardew is fired We have a seasons worth of performances that show little correlation between possession/domination & results in comparison to the importance of simply having a very strong defensive system and attackers that will do enough to get the points. If teams have a very hard time scoring against you & you are good at putting the ball in the net, you will win games against most sides. Pardew has put in place the defensive system that achieves that & bought the attackers that do the business the other side. In what way is it likely that this will suddenly stop working? In contrast to our 'achievements' this season of playing the brand of football you just described, we have many seasons worth of performance (courtesy of the likes of Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and even Liverpool to some extent) that shows that if you do want to aim for Europe and higher, then possession football and dominating games (especially against weaker teams) is an absolute must. No team (to my memory at least) has played the type of football that we are playing and yet has proven to be consistently successful in qualifying for Europe which begs the question can we repeat this next season or is this a one season wonder? Nobody is disputing that this model is currently working for us (at least to get 6th so far), but what many are saying is that if we continue using the same model and based on the experience of the other successful teams, then we will either screw up at the finishing line or find it difficult to repeat the same form next year. If you think this season's form can be repeated every season without changing our style of play, then we just fundamentally disagree and I dare say that your view would be contrary to the evidence displayed by all the top teams (defined as qualifying for Europe through league standings) over the last few seasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 classic NO forum "debate" going on again: Group A: results have been good, performances poor and ultimately that's likely to lead to poorer results unless pardew changes his tactics and selections in the long run... Group B: we're 6th man, you can't criticize pardew for results, it's a disgrace to even think of that Group A: agree that results are good, saying that in future they're likely to not be good anymore Group B: but results are good, we're 6th man repeat until pardew is fired We have a seasons worth of performances that show little correlation between possession/domination & results in comparison to the importance of simply having a very strong defensive system and attackers that will do enough to get the points. If teams have a very hard time scoring against you & you are good at putting the ball in the net, you will win games against most sides. Pardew has put in place the defensive system that achieves that & bought the attackers that do the business the other side. In what way is it likely that this will suddenly stop working? In contrast to our 'achievements' this season of playing the brand of football you just described, we have many seasons worth of performance (courtesy of the likes of Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs and even Liverpool to some extent) that shows that if you do want to aim for Europe and higher, then possession football and dominating games (especially against weaker teams) is an absolute must. No team (to my memory at least) has played the type of football that we are playing and yet has proven to be consistently successful in qualifying for Europe which begs the question can we repeat this next season or is this a one season wonder? Nobody is disputing that this model is currently working for us (at least to get 6th so far), but what many are saying is that if we continue using the same model and based on the experience of the other successful teams, then we will either screw up at the finishing line or find it difficult to repeat the same form next year. If you think this season's form can be repeated every season without changing our style of play, then we just fundamentally disagree and I dare say that your view would be contrary to the evidence displayed by all the top teams (defined as qualifying for Europe through league standings) over the last few seasons. awaiting response: but look at the results, we're 6th man! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Out of all the one players who scored a goal in the game, one of them was Newcastle player. That's very relevant to the topic of passing, cheers. Quite pertinent to the topic of winning football matches, which Alan Pardew (the perosn being discussed in this thread) is paid to do. Just broadening the debate is all I don't think anyone's debating that we won the game. Could've fooled me. We beat a confident Norwich side. Who don't forget, beat us 4-2 last time out. The point discussed is how we seem to win games by solitary goals usually dependent on some outstanding play by one of of Cisse, Ba or HBA instead of teamwork with a coherent formation and tactics (unless you consider the hoofing in the second half as tactics). The problem with the model that we are adopting is that we don't dominate games and can at anytime lose/draw games that in theory we should/can win. It also gives us next to zero chance (Man Utd game aside) of taking points of the top 4-6 teams even at home, which is what we should be targeting if we are serious on getting into Europe. Maybe some will have to wait till we get a tonking from Liverpool for the penny to drop. Dependant on outstanding play? Cant really say that in this example when Cisse missed more sitters than class goals he scored. We dont dominate games no, it hasnt made us less likely to lose/draw games than we should win in theory. Look back at the season, bar unusual circumstances we pretty much win every game you'd expect under Pardew. I made a thread on this yesterday. We definately do less well against the top 7 but its to be expected. Which games so far against them would you have expected more from us? Swansea at home, Wolves at home, Sunderland at home, West Brom at home. Definately more points on offer in those games. Wolves/Sunderland yeah & individual circumstances still decided those games. Swansea/Wbrom i wouldnt say we could have expected much more. We drew 0-0 with Swansea and lost 2-3 against West Brom at home. Both teams currently ranked 8th and 12th respectively. Maybe we just have different expectations, if we are targeting Europe and beyond, using Pip's formula in the OP of the "Battle for 7th" thread, these are teams that we should be beating at home. I'm curious why you think we couldn't (shouldn't?) expect more than a total 1 point out of the potential 6 on offer?? You'd expect to win looking at them yeah. Swansea achieved their lowest poss all season in our game, went all out defence & theyre hard enough to score against when they dont do that as Man city found out. If you remember there was barely any space in the box atall, Ba had to do acrobatic overheads to get a shot that wasnt blocked & it was still saved. He also hit the post. Dont think we could have done much more. West Brom was just our defense for me due to having 1 Cb. 2 goals should be enough to get points from a game. Only Spurs/Arsenal/Swansea have put 3 past wbrom all season & swansea needed a penalty. So that leaves 2 sides who managed it & theyre 2 of the best attacking sides in the league. Possible to do? Yes. But no chance can we expect it. We just conceded to many. For the Swansea game, based on soccernet's stats, possession was 51% vs 49% in their favor. Perhaps they were ultra defensive, but this is even more reason to believe that the way to break down a resolute defence is not by lumping the ball forward but by playing passing the ball around and moving up as a team. You only need to see how the top teams do this when faced with such a defensive strategy. This is what we don't do which is why end up losing points that we could have won. Crucially out of the 22 shots we had, only 3 were on target which is what you get from percentage football ala Pardew. You might have a point that against West Brom, it is our defence that screwed up. But once again out of 26 shots, only 5 were on target. This low percentage of shots of target is a clear symptom of percentage football where you just try to shoot even if in a crappy position as opposed to creating genuine chances (like one on ones) where it is harder to miss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnonel Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 watching the game in the second half let me know what it must feel like to support stoke. nothing really to get excited about, but hay................we might get a result. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 watching the game in the second half let me know what it must feel like to support stoke. nothing really to get excited about, but hay................we might get a result. I can't criticise Stoke for how they play considering the shite we had to watch 2nd half. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Very strange game yesterday. We started the game really well I thought (there was a definite emphasis on passing it around, and Krul and Williamson didn't hoof it in the first 15 mins at all), but as soon as we scored and the crowd got on Williamson's back for that insane moment in the first half, we seemed to lose confidence in our ability to pass it around. That being said, without playing well at all after that, we still could have easily scored another 3 or 4 goals. All of the players did look shattered / low on confidence like (apart from Perch, who was immense, and Cisse). With all that being said though, I was still disappointed when I left the game. Felt like we should have dominated more. I agree in the past few months we haven't played good football, but the early signs yesterday was that we were trying to. So I'm not sure how much Pardew was to blame yesterday. It was clear in the first 15 mins that they were instructive to keep it down and pass it. The player's confidence seemed to revert them to hitting it long the longer the game wore on though. I'd agree with that on balance. It's the manager's job to try and instil and maintain that confidence though. Reverting to awful football isn't the answer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I'd agree with that on balance. It's the manager's job to try and instil and maintain that confidence though. Reverting to awful football isn't the answer. exactly! people act like pardew is just an innocent bystander in events and can do nothing to alter the inevitable course of fate it's his job Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I'd agree with that on balance. It's the manager's job to try and instil and maintain that confidence though. Reverting to awful football isn't the answer. exactly! people act like pardew is just an innocent bystander in events and can do nothing to alter the inevitable course of fate it's his job Yeap, you get good confidence from a good result but imo you get just as much from when you are have played really well as a team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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