The Tactics Thread

[AyeDubbleYoo]

1st base, 11 athletes,  then talk tactics.

We havent tackled the first issue now for the past 3 years.

 

 

 

Sadly you're right... the premiership now is all about athleticism. The fact that we've persevered with so many immobile and unfit players for so long is unbelievable.

 

Obviously we can't address that now though, so we need to get the best out of the players we have.

[ElDiablo]

Fuck em up, get into them

[JH]

The Toon have to set up their formation so they've got a framework to link the Defence/Midfield/Attack together, we have some of the most static players in the league at the moment. Both strikers stay forward (rarely dropping deep into midfield or working the flanks), which is pointless when you haven't got a true winger to drive the ball forward to cross for them. Likewise, no one from central midfield supports the attacking play in a 4-4-2.

Barton does the job from RIGHT MIDFIELD of dropping deep in the centre to collect the ball from the defenders, which I think speaks volumes about the other midfielders in the squad.

 

3-4-3 looks decent on paper, but I think we'd be asking far too much of the Wing Backs to provide the link up between all the other units for 90 mins. I wouldn't say I was part of the cult of tactics that is exploding around the internet since Zonalmarkings blog hit the scene, but then I don't dismiss them either. Tactics and the players have to share a 50/50 split, you can't really have one without the other.

 

You have to use the player's strengths to your advantage, and use a tactic that will cover their weaknesses. We can't play like Barca since we have 3 players who have any real skill when it comes to passing. We can't play the old Mourhino counter attack either as we lack pace. Sadly, the sale of Carroll has exposed how linear we are/were as a team and how comfortable they became hitting it long for him to challenge/win it most of the time.

 

Hopefully, the arrival of Ireland (if he's not being crackers), and the return of Ben Arfa will add some mobility to the team, and offer the much needed link up and support between attack and midfield.

 

In 90mins yesterday Kevin Nolan (I'd stop reading now, Stu), attempted 19 passes (12 of which were successful), managed 3 interceptions, and won 3 out of 4 tackles. That's pretty lazy. Fulham's goal came from a lack of energy to close down Murphey - the player Pardew had singled out as the playmaker for Fulham (so you'd have hoped he told his midfield to deny him space and time).

Nolan's heatmap (though the Guardian chalkbaords aren't the best for this) show he pretty much stood in the middle of the park. OK, I hear you say, what's wrong with that? If you compare it with Danny Guthrie (who gets a lot of flak for being weak at times), Guthrie was covering the entire width of the field (which would suggest he was closing down as asked). You could defend Nolan by suggesting he was asked to track Murphy, so his movement was limited to where Murphey moved (and there is some evidence to support that), but sadly, we've seen plenty of times this season (and last) that Nolan doesn't really seem to work in the middle as a defensive force.

 

Plenty of work needs to be done in training to encourage basic pass and move drills. Watching the Fulham game again, its unreal to see how far apart team mates are from each other (which was another key contributor to the long ball game).

 

Enrique rarely overlapped Jonas, Simpson tried his best to offer the overlap and width on the right, but was often over looked. Ameobi/Ranger were too far away from Best/Lovenkrands, likewise Nolan and Guthrie rarely supported each other for the easy pass. Tiote's return should help ease that one away, as he is a high energy player with a good work rate and awareness for his team mates.

 

I'll add more later, if wanted, as I have to analysis 3 Newcastle games (Tottenham, Fulham and Arsenal) and create a training dossier from it for Uni work!

 

 

19 passes attempted ffs

[David28]

Routledge

[arnonel]

The Toon have to set up their formation so they've got a framework to link the Defence/Midfield/Attack together, we have some of the most static players in the league at the moment. Both strikers stay forward (rarely dropping deep into midfield or working the flanks), which is pointless when you haven't got a true winger to drive the ball forward to cross for them. Likewise, no one from central midfield supports the attacking play in a 4-4-2.

Barton does the job from RIGHT MIDFIELD of dropping deep in the centre to collect the ball from the defenders, which I think speaks volumes about the other midfielders in the squad.

 

3-4-3 looks decent on paper, but I think we'd be asking far too much of the Wing Backs to provide the link up between all the other units for 90 mins. I wouldn't say I was part of the cult of tactics that is exploding around the internet since Zonalmarkings blog hit the scene, but then I don't dismiss them either. Tactics and the players have to share a 50/50 split, you can't really have one without the other.

 

You have to use the player's strengths to your advantage, and use a tactic that will cover their weaknesses. We can't play like Barca since we have 3 players who have any real skill when it comes to passing. We can't play the old Mourhino counter attack either as we lack pace. Sadly, the sale of Carroll has exposed how linear we are/were as a team and how comfortable they became hitting it long for him to challenge/win it most of the time.

 

Hopefully, the arrival of Ireland (if he's not being crackers), and the return of Ben Arfa will add some mobility to the team, and offer the much needed link up and support between attack and midfield.

 

In 90mins yesterday Kevin Nolan (I'd stop reading now, Stu), attempted 19 passes (12 of which were successful), managed 3 interceptions, and won 3 out of 4 tackles. That's pretty lazy. Fulham's goal came from a lack of energy to close down Murphey - the player Pardew had singled out as the playmaker for Fulham (so you'd have hoped he told his midfield to deny him space and time).

Nolan's heatmap (though the Guardian chalkbaords aren't the best for this) show he pretty much stood in the middle of the park. OK, I hear you say, what's wrong with that? If you compare it with Danny Guthrie (who gets a lot of flak for being weak at times), Guthrie was covering the entire width of the field (which would suggest he was closing down as asked). You could defend Nolan by suggesting he was asked to track Murphy, so his movement was limited to where Murphey moved (and there is some evidence to support that), but sadly, we've seen plenty of times this season (and last) that Nolan doesn't really seem to work in the middle as a defensive force.

 

Plenty of work needs to be done in training to encourage basic pass and move drills. Watching the Fulham game again, its unreal to see how far apart team mates are from each other (which was another key contributor to the long ball game).

 

Enrique rarely overlapped Jonas, Simpson tried his best to offer the overlap and width on the right, but was often over looked. Ameobi/Ranger were too far away from Best/Lovenkrands, likewise Nolan and Guthrie rarely supported each other for the easy pass. Tiote's return should help ease that one away, as he is a high energy player with a good work rate and awareness for his team mates.

 

I'll add more later, if wanted, as I have to analysis 3 Newcastle games (Tottenham, Fulham and Arsenal) and create a training dossier from it for Uni work!

 

Why dont you pop pards an email with some tips. Seems guys at Uni know more than him

[Memphis]

Good post Obi.

 

Link play was sadly missing.  As others have pointed out, Tiote is a nice partner for Nolan because he so effectively does so much of the work in midfield, covering acres of space, closing down opponents, breaking up play, leaving Nolan free to faff about and slide into better attacking positions.  Guthrie is an exceedingly poor man's Tiote in that regard, leaving us with a toothless, immobile midfield centre. 

 

I would have loved to have seen what Ireland could have done in place of Best, changing to a 4-5-1 type look.  Think it would have done wonders for the flow of play in the final third, and certainly would have given us more ideas with which to work.   

 

 

[arnonel]

All Nolan needs to do is sit on the sidelines and wait for corners.

Midfielder: 1/10

Set pieces: 10/10

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

With a good partner, Nolan's a good midfielder. With Tiote to do the running and sweeping up, Nolan usually keeps the ball well and is there to pop up with goals. But yesterday, quite right, he didn't do nearly enough.

[Guest MrSundlofer]

Can some of our players pick up knowledge of a new position?

 

Jonás Gutiérrez played right-back for Argentina in World Cup, Joey Barton has adapted well in the right midfield...

 

Kevin Nolan: Currently playing in central midfield. Should we put him in a more advanced position? Is he a good target man?

 

Steven Taylor: Currently injured but is a central defender. I remember two games early in his career against Arsenal and Everton. He played right-back and was very aggressive and attacking - bombarding forward! I miss this part of Taylor. My funny thought is: Can we try to play him as a striker? He's strong, tall, aggressive, determined, can close-down opposition players and a good header of the ball. Not sure he's the best finisher.

 

= Jonás Gutiérrez should keep playing on the left wing with José Enrique supporting him at left back. Joey Barton stays on the right. Kevin Nolan will get more chances to go forward when Cheick Tiote returns to the side and should keep his original place in central midfield. What about Steven Taylor? I'm not on training pitch and can't see what his bad and good sides are.. But I must admit it's exciting to see him upfront, at least for a half. And yes, he's currently injured.

[LucaAltieri]

Taylor started life as a striker, if I remember correctly.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

So did Steve Harper, assisted against Celtic!

[LucaAltieri]

Looks like Liverpool are sitcking to this 3 centre backs with 2 wing backs formation and getting results.

 

It makes perfect sense. Teams are playing narrower and with fewer attacking players. Tactics have evolved... where 4-4-2 was the standard, 4-5-1 has now taken over. A 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 is the next logical evolution.

 

Well played Dalglish for giving it a go. Same goes for Shearer who tried it a couple of years back.  

[Punk77]

Looks like Liverpool are sitcking to this 3 centre backs with 2 wing backs formation and getting results.

 

It makes perfect sense. Teams are playing narrower and with fewer attacking players. Tactics have evolved... where 4-4-2 was the standard, 4-5-1 has now taken over. A 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 is the next logical evolution.

 

Well played Dalglish for giving it a go. Same goes for Shearer who tried it a couple of years back.  

 

They have been getting some results yes, but not in a convincing style. And they had some margins too. Tbh they've met teams that suit them perfectly, like Stoke, Wolfes and Chelsea. The two first teams have a lot of guts but is not as technical skilled as Liverpool . Chelsea on the other hand has plenty of technique, but no movement and is not willing to put down the extra miles that is necessary when they meet a physical and defensive oriented team like Liverpool. In other words, Pool is  Stoke version 2.0.  Liverpool's true test is when they're playing teams that are able to apply pressure high up (Everton), teams that has a combination of physique and fast players (Aston Villa, Tham) or up against teams that have all those combinations (Arsenal and Man U. )

[RupertCommunicator]

I think we should play to our strengths, which is our excellent defence and strong centre of midfield.

 

Therefore,

 

              Harper

Simpson  Willi  Colo  Enrique

 

is already a proven given.

 

We know that Simpson and Jose will get forward and support the wingers, so we can consider this bit of the team sorted.

 

We also know that Tiote and Barton need to be in the squad somewhere, since they are our two best players, the question is whether we use Barton on the right or in the centre and if we use Tiote as a DM or a CM.

 

Our main weakness is our wingers and our strikers, so we should use our strong core to supplement these areas.  One solution is:

 

          Tiote

Barton          Jonas

      Nolan  Barfa

            Best

 

This would give us 5 in midfield which would allow us to control games against almost anyone, especially with our four defenders behind us.

 

Points to note:

 

1.  Jonas is not being used here as a winger, but a LM.  He is good on the ball and can provide a lot of nuisance and ball winning value when not in possession.  He can advance the ball using Barfa as an outlet and he is still in front of Jose, who we know he works well with.

 

2.  Barfa and Nolan are AMs who we know are an attacking threat.  They will supplement the striker but still be able to reinforce midfield when necessary.  I imagine Nolan would probably play deeper than Barfa who would be more likely to adopt a free role.

 

3.  Barton is a RM, not a winger and will tuck in to support Tiote, who we know will do well deep in midfield.  Also, with Barton and Jonas tucking in, Tiote will have plenty of options to pass as well as through balls to Nolan/Barfa.

 

In summary, chin off the wingers and keep the ball on the deck.  We no longer will benefit from target man play and have never been good at lots of bombing wing play with good crosses.  If we need to cross in, Barton can provide set piece play with Willi providing the target.  Obviously, Best can interchange with whichever striker we have but he will will be used as an opportunistic striker profiting off the vast support he has behind him.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thefootballtacticsblog/2011/02/arsenal_fans_need_to_get.html

 

I thought this was going to be a bit more in depth, but its pretty lightweight and doesn't really touch on anything.

[LucaAltieri]

Missed the game yesterday. How did Enrique and Simpson cope in the wing back role after the ending off?

[JH]

Missed the game yesterday. How did Enrique and Simpson cope in the wing back role after the ending off?

 

Enrique handled it much better than Simpson IMO.

[ponsaelius]

Missed the game yesterday. How did Enrique and Simpson cope in the wing back role after the ending off?

 

Enrique handled it much better than Simpson IMO.

 

Yep. It seemed to me that Saylor tried to take it upon himself to be the wingback half the time like

[Anderson]

Taylor just went into his Geordie hero mode, bombing around all over the place.

 

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/109454461.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892102A727B1636DE2E6A39073781E2BE1AD75DE2AD3624F9F3B2E0AEC06D5B9B021

[Stu]

The Toon have to set up their formation so they've got a framework to link the Defence/Midfield/Attack together, we have some of the most static players in the league at the moment. Both strikers stay forward (rarely dropping deep into midfield or working the flanks), which is pointless when you haven't got a true winger to drive the ball forward to cross for them. Likewise, no one from central midfield supports the attacking play in a 4-4-2.

Barton does the job from RIGHT MIDFIELD of dropping deep in the centre to collect the ball from the defenders, which I think speaks volumes about the other midfielders in the squad.

 

3-4-3 looks decent on paper, but I think we'd be asking far too much of the Wing Backs to provide the link up between all the other units for 90 mins. I wouldn't say I was part of the cult of tactics that is exploding around the internet since Zonalmarkings blog hit the scene, but then I don't dismiss them either. Tactics and the players have to share a 50/50 split, you can't really have one without the other.

 

You have to use the player's strengths to your advantage, and use a tactic that will cover their weaknesses. We can't play like Barca since we have 3 players who have any real skill when it comes to passing. We can't play the old Mourhino counter attack either as we lack pace. Sadly, the sale of Carroll has exposed how linear we are/were as a team and how comfortable they became hitting it long for him to challenge/win it most of the time.

 

Hopefully, the arrival of Ireland (if he's not being crackers), and the return of Ben Arfa will add some mobility to the team, and offer the much needed link up and support between attack and midfield.

 

In 90mins yesterday Kevin Nolan (I'd stop reading now, Stu), attempted 19 passes (12 of which were successful), managed 3 interceptions, and won 3 out of 4 tackles. That's pretty lazy. Fulham's goal came from a lack of energy to close down Murphey - the player Pardew had singled out as the playmaker for Fulham (so you'd have hoped he told his midfield to deny him space and time).

Nolan's heatmap (though the Guardian chalkbaords aren't the best for this) show he pretty much stood in the middle of the park. OK, I hear you say, what's wrong with that? If you compare it with Danny Guthrie (who gets a lot of flak for being weak at times), Guthrie was covering the entire width of the field (which would suggest he was closing down as asked). You could defend Nolan by suggesting he was asked to track Murphy, so his movement was limited to where Murphey moved (and there is some evidence to support that), but sadly, we've seen plenty of times this season (and last) that Nolan doesn't really seem to work in the middle as a defensive force.

 

Plenty of work needs to be done in training to encourage basic pass and move drills. Watching the Fulham game again, its unreal to see how far apart team mates are from each other (which was another key contributor to the long ball game).

 

Enrique rarely overlapped Jonas, Simpson tried his best to offer the overlap and width on the right, but was often over looked. Ameobi/Ranger were too far away from Best/Lovenkrands, likewise Nolan and Guthrie rarely supported each other for the easy pass. Tiote's return should help ease that one away, as he is a high energy player with a good work rate and awareness for his team mates.

 

I'll add more later, if wanted, as I have to analysis 3 Newcastle games (Tottenham, Fulham and Arsenal) and create a training dossier from it for Uni work!

 

Ah, is this the infamous tactical analysis? Nice work. Can we have the stats for the full team? Also, are these stats going off prozone or your own study of the match dvd?

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

That's just a snippet from the work for Uni. Won't be putting it on the net until its all submitted and ticked off for Uni. The stats came from telegraph.co.uk and the guardian website (as well as watching the game).

[Stu]

What do telegraph/chalkboard base their stats on?

[Greg]

What do telegraph/chalkboard base their stats on?

 

The Guardian Chalkboard data comes from Opta.

[ATB]

Taylor just went into his Geordie hero mode, bombing around all over the place.

 

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/109454461.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892102A727B1636DE2E6A39073781E2BE1AD75DE2AD3624F9F3B2E0AEC06D5B9B021

 

[madras]

Missed the game yesterday. How did Enrique and Simpson cope in the wing back role after the ending off?

 

Enrique handled it much better than Simpson IMO.

 

Yep. It seemed to me that Saylor tried to take it upon himself to be the wingback half the time like

yes and no, enrique handled the 'with the ball' stuff better but simpson took up much better defensive positions. bearing in mind enrique was up against an out of position hit man not really known for scintilating wing play, the amount of times he got caught out was a bit of a shock. for all it looked likr we'd mostly get something from our play down our left it was also more likely we'd concede from play down that side also.