Leon Best

[Wullie]

However, Ba plays better (and scores more) when there's another big unit up alongside him (Shola or Best) - really need those two to be pushing each other for form and fitness to get into the side.

 

Is this based on anything more than a figment of your imagination?

 

Post-Ramadan goals scored by our strike 'pairing'...

 

Ba + Best/Shola

WBA: 2

Swansea: 0

Norwich: 2

Everton: 0

Stoke: 3

Wigan: 0

Spurs: 2

Wolves: 1

Blackburn: 3

Villa: 1

QPR: 0

 

Ba+HBA

Chelsea: 0

Man Utd: 1

Man City: 0

Blackburn: 0

 

Nothing scientific by a long shot, but it's more than plausible that the extra 'big unit' up front creates a bit of extra space for Ba to work his magic.

 

Fuck me.

 

I reckon it's more plausible that three of those four are three of the best teams in Europe, just a sneaking suspicion like.

[80]

far from helping Ba i actually think Best's presence has actively damaged our attacking prospects in the past couple of games. Not necessarily his fault, as i think it's got more to do with Pardew's crap tactic of attempting to use Best as a target man, even though his strength and aerial ability amount to fuck all most of the time. instead of trying to build attacks and keep possession we're hoying long diagonal passes into the box or letting jonas and obertan float these awful slow lofted crosses to no one in particular. the former never turn into anything we can work with, and the latter have only proved marginally dangerous due to Ba's ability to turn on the ball and get a shot in when working with scraps. In terms of a working relationship he seems to have far more of a creative rapport with Ben Arfa.

 

Indeed. Nice abs but I've got no idea where this Best is a big unit idea came from. Change of subject, but in essence very similar to pumping long balls at Andy Carroll. No player's much cop if he's used badly.

[Mick]

 

 

Shy of a genuine 3 up front tactic (not some 451, 4321 thing), the only other option is Shola, in my mind. Otherwise I'm looking at Adam Campbell. Seriously.

 

Do you not think Vuckic did enough yesterday to get another start?  I'm sick of looking along our front line and seeing Best standing yards off-side, yesterday he cost us a goal but other times he's costing us posession when going forward.

[Mick]

However, Ba plays better (and scores more) when there's another big unit up alongside him (Shola or Best) - really need those two to be pushing each other for form and fitness to get into the side.

 

Is this based on anything more than a figment of your imagination?

 

Post-Ramadan goals scored by our strike 'pairing'...

 

Ba + Best/Shola

WBA: 2

Swansea: 0

Norwich: 2

Everton: 0

Stoke: 3

Wigan: 0

Spurs: 2

Wolves: 1

Blackburn: 3

Villa: 1

QPR: 0

 

Ba+HBA

Chelsea: 0

Man Utd: 1

Man City: 0

Blackburn: 0

 

Nothing scientific by a long shot, but it's more than plausible that the extra 'big unit' up front creates a bit of extra space for Ba to work his magic.

 

Good point, those teams are all of comparable quality.

[80]

 

 

Shy of a genuine 3 up front tactic (not some 451, 4321 thing), the only other option is Shola, in my mind. Otherwise I'm looking at Adam Campbell. Seriously.

 

Do you not think Vuckic did enough yesterday to get another start?  I'm sick of looking along our front line and seeing Best standing yards off-side, yesterday he cost us a goal but other times he's costing us posession when going forward.

 

I'm well up for it, but from what I know about him (which isn't a lot), he's still more of a complimentary midfielder than a goalscoring target man (target man in the way Bellamy is a target man, to be clear). Still seems to be growing into his own body, I can imagine him being a proper forward in the future, but when I have seen him in the past he's still looked weak and ponderous - someone you can hassle off his stroke. Not sure about his scoring record, either.

 

Again, do something other than play a bog standard 442 with Obertan on the right wing and we can talk more. Seems like the Best row is a diversion - this is where the real problem lies, discussion about which man should be alongside Ba is just us attempting to accommodate idiocy. I want to already know what we look like with HBA, Ba and Best in the same team.

[Mick]

 

 

I'm well up for it, but from what I know about him (which isn't a lot), he's still more of a complimentary midfielder than a goalscoring target man (target man in the way Bellamy is a target man, to be clear). Still seems to be growing into his own body, I can imagine him being a proper forward in the future, but when I have seen him in the past he's still looked weak and ponderous - someone you can hassle off his stroke. Not sure about his scoring record, either.

 

Again, do something other than play a bog standard 442 with Obertan on the right wing and we can talk more. Seems like the Best row is a diversion - this is where the real problem lies, discussion about which man should be alongside Ba is just an attempt to accommodate idiocy.

 

Vuckic is nothing like Bellamy and never will be, I'd liken him more to a young Rooney but not as good.  He hasn't scored many goals for us so far but he does get them and he's got a very good left foot.

 

How is discussing who plays alongside Ba an attempt to accommodate idiocy?

[80]

 

 

I'm well up for it, but from what I know about him (which isn't a lot), he's still more of a complimentary midfielder than a goalscoring target man (target man in the way Bellamy is a target man, to be clear). Still seems to be growing into his own body, I can imagine him being a proper forward in the future, but when I have seen him in the past he's still looked weak and ponderous - someone you can hassle off his stroke. Not sure about his scoring record, either.

 

Again, do something other than play a bog standard 442 with Obertan on the right wing and we can talk more. Seems like the Best row is a diversion - this is where the real problem lies, discussion about which man should be alongside Ba is just an attempt to accommodate idiocy.

 

Vuckic is nothing like Bellamy and never will be, I'd liken him more to a young Rooney but not as good.  He hasn't scored many goals for us so far but he does get them and he's got a very good left foot.

 

How is discussing who plays alongside Ba an attempt to accommodate idiocy?

 

No, not saying he's like Bellamy, just trying to point out that by target man I'm not just talking about bloody great lumps like Vinny Jones. I mean the ones who are the main focus of both the defenders and attackers during a game, the ones whose movement drag people out of position or are naturally capable of turning a half-chance pass into a goal. Vuckic doesn't seem to be one of those people, yet, especially given who he's surrounded by. I agree about Rooney, by the way, and it took him a good while to settle into the way Ferguson chose to use him.

 

Accommodating idiocy because the basis of the discussion is wrong. Who cares whether Vuckic and Ba would do better than Best and Ba when they're both supplied by a 442 with Obertan in it? I don't think either would thrive. Squeezing an extra 5% out isn't worth the effort if it's 5% of fuck all. I'd rather talk about how Vuckic, Ba and Best would play in a better organised team.

[Mick]

 

 

No, not saying he's like Bellamy, just trying to point out that by target man I'm not just talking about bloody great lumps like Vinny Jones. I mean the ones who are the main focus of both the defenders and attackers during a game, the ones whose movement drag people out of position or are naturally capable of turning a half-chance pass into a goal. Vuckic doesn't seem to be one of those people, yet, especially given who he's surrounded by. I agree about Rooney, by the way, and it took him a good while to settle into the way Ferguson chose to use him.

 

Accommodating idiocy because the basis of the discussion is wrong. Who cares whether Vuckic and Ba would do better than Best and Ba when they're both supplied by a 442 with Obertan in it? I don't think either would thrive. Squeezing an extra 5% out isn't worth the effort if it's 5% of f*** all. I'd rather talk about how Vuckic, Ba and Best would play in a better organised team.

 

Fair enough, I think Best and Obertan have both had enough games to justify starting or not.  I would rather see both Ben Arfa and Vuckic get a run of games so that we can see what they can or can't do for us.  If they get a good run of games and are found to be worse than those who they replaced then I'd be happy to see them brought back.  My frustration with the players who are not performing is that I think we have better players who are not getting games; we'll never know one way or the other until they get games.

[80]

 

 

No, not saying he's like Bellamy, just trying to point out that by target man I'm not just talking about bloody great lumps like Vinny Jones. I mean the ones who are the main focus of both the defenders and attackers during a game, the ones whose movement drag people out of position or are naturally capable of turning a half-chance pass into a goal. Vuckic doesn't seem to be one of those people, yet, especially given who he's surrounded by. I agree about Rooney, by the way, and it took him a good while to settle into the way Ferguson chose to use him.

 

Accommodating idiocy because the basis of the discussion is wrong. Who cares whether Vuckic and Ba would do better than Best and Ba when they're both supplied by a 442 with Obertan in it? I don't think either would thrive. Squeezing an extra 5% out isn't worth the effort if it's 5% of f*** all. I'd rather talk about how Vuckic, Ba and Best would play in a better organised team.

 

Fair enough, I think Best and Obertan have both had enough games to justify starting or not.  I would rather see both Ben Arfa and Vuckic get a run of games so that we can see what they can or can't do for us.  If they get a good run of games and are found to be worse than those who they replaced then I'd be happy to see them brought back.  My frustration with the players who are not performing is that I think we have better players who are not getting games; we'll never know one way or the other until they get games.

 

Agreed, it's just that I'd probably whack them all in the same team together in the circumstances (Obertan being the odd one out).

[Disco]

Crowd getting on his back isn't going to do him any favours. Some laughable reactions around me when he was subbed. Support the bloke FFS.

[geordiemonster]

I personally thought Best had a fairly decent game last night.  He seems to link far better with Ba than Ameobi does and he wins a fair percentage of headers as well.

[TaylorJ_01]

He's certainly better than Ameobi, I hope no-one is disputing that

[Lush Vlad]

I think playing best encourages possession slightly, as we're more likely to make it stick upfront.

 

But we've seen in the last couple games its provided little penetration of defences as our wingers cannot cross it adequately. The one time we got through was vuckics through ball to Ba, it was all infront of them bar that. Similarly at Swansea unless Ba produced individual magic.

 

Ben Arfa is the type that can jink his way through instead. We'll probably keep it less, but be more dangerous on the attack as West brom were to us.

 

Not sure I agree with that like.  We just go route one and hit and hope when Best is in the team.  We never try and play it on the deck or look for anything off the ball, granted the non existent movement doesn't help. 

 

Launching the ball 70 yards is a poor way of retaining possession.

 

This is coming from a Best fan BTW, I like him, but he's not offering much at the minute.  Personally think he's got more to his game than just headers, but for whatever reason, we just play hoof ball lately.  Probably to do with the likes of Perch, Raylor and Simpson treating the ball like a bomb.

[Stu]

He's certainly better than Ameobi, I hope no-one is disputing that

 

Both have their good/bad points, both have good days and bad days in the shirt - Best has been more consistent with his production in 2011 although this does appear to have dried up since his last couple of injuries.

 

Post-Ramadan goals scored by our strike 'pairing'...

 

Ba + Best/Shola

Blackburn: 3

 

Ba+HBA

Blackburn: 0

 

Nothing scientific by a long shot, but it's more than plausible that the extra 'big unit' up front creates a bit of extra space for Ba to work his magic.

 

Fuck me.

 

I reckon it's more plausible that three of those four are three of the best teams in Europe, just a sneaking suspicion like.

 

Good point, those teams are all of comparable quality.

 

I suppose you're now going to say that playing in the Sports Direct Arena does such wonders for our team's confidence, it's the reason why we scored 3 with Ba+bigger man vs 0 with Ba+HBA?

[Mick]

 

 

I suppose you're now going to say that playing in the Sports Direct Arena does such wonders for our team's confidence, it's the reason why we scored 3 with Ba+bigger man vs 0 with Ba+HBA?

 

I haven't got a clue what you're on about.

[Interpolic]

It's a bizarre post like.

[Mick]

It's a bizarre post like.

 

Thanks, I thought that it was me.

[Guest H09]

However, Ba plays better (and scores more) when there's another big unit up alongside him (Shola or Best) - really need those two to be pushing each other for form and fitness to get into the side.

 

Is this based on anything more than a figment of your imagination?

 

Post-Ramadan goals scored by our strike 'pairing'...

 

Ba + Best/Shola

WBA: 2

Swansea: 0

Norwich: 2

Everton: 0

Stoke: 3

Wigan: 0

Spurs: 2

Wolves: 1

Blackburn: 3

Villa: 1

QPR: 0

 

Ba+HBA

Chelsea: 0

Man Utd: 1

Man City: 0

Blackburn: 0

 

Nothing scientific by a long shot, but it's more than plausible that the extra 'big unit' up front creates a bit of extra space for Ba to work his magic.

 

f*** me.

 

I reckon it's more plausible that three of those four are three of the best teams in Europe, just a sneaking suspicion like.

 

Haven't you watched the Champions League lately?

[alpal78]

However, Ba plays better (and scores more) when there's another big unit up alongside him (Shola or Best) - really need those two to be pushing each other for form and fitness to get into the side.

 

Is this based on anything more than a figment of your imagination?

 

Post-Ramadan goals scored by our strike 'pairing'...

 

Ba + Best/Shola

WBA: 2

Swansea: 0

Norwich: 2

Everton: 0

Stoke: 3

Wigan: 0

Spurs: 2

Wolves: 1

Blackburn: 3

Villa: 1

QPR: 0

 

Ba+HBA

Chelsea: 0

Man Utd: 1

Man City: 0

Blackburn: 0

 

Nothing scientific by a long shot, but it's more than plausible that the extra 'big unit' up front creates a bit of extra space for Ba to work his magic.

 

Sorry nothing personal but I hate when people make sweeping generalization like this without analyzing context. The quality of teams in those two lists obviously differs with Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea the most difficult team we'll face. Not scoring against them proves nothing. Plus this big man + Ba have not delivered lately against Swansea and West Brom. Instead it was the HBA + Ba combo that created our last open play goal.

[ohmelads]

Ba's off the ball movement is class, he plays the line very well and I think he feeds best off the kind of through ball he got from Vuckic in the last game rather than scraps and knock-downs.

 

It's pointless looking at games away in Manchester and saying Ben Arfa/Ba can't work. There'll be games where Best or Shola will give us more such as against Stoke but I think Ben Arfa and Ba can be a very dangerous pairing if they're given a run of games. A couple of appearances against Man City and Man Utd is hardly a fair crack of the whip.

 

I'd rather play Ba/Ben Arfa in these winnable games and go for the first goal rather than going for workrate and then bringing flair off the bench when we fall behind or fail to get a goal. It seems a bit negative to be playing Best at home to West Brom with Ben Arfa sat on the bench. I might understand the logic of that in a physical contest against Stoke or a game where we need all hands on deck against Man City. Against Swansea or West Brom at home you get your dangerous players at them and you bring Shola or Best off the bench to help defend a lead.

 

It makes little sense and makes me wonder if something has happened behind the scenes. With Ba off to Africa soon now more than ever is the time to give Ben Arfa his chance because if we don't get him firing and don't sign a striker we'll be in trouble.

[Stu]

Sorry nothing personal but I hate when people make sweeping generalization like this without analyzing context. The quality of teams in those two lists obviously differs with Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea the most difficult team we'll face. Not scoring against them proves nothing. Plus this big man + Ba have not delivered lately against Swansea and West Brom. Instead it was the HBA + Ba combo that created our last open play goal.

 

 

 

I suppose you're now going to say that playing in the Sports Direct Arena does such wonders for our team's confidence, it's the reason why we scored 3 with Ba+bigger man vs 0 with Ba+HBA?

 

I haven't got a clue what you're on about.

 

 

You've both stated that the overriding factor behind Ba+HBA not working is the quality of opposition faced (Chelsea, Man U, Man C).

 

We've played Blackburn with Ba+Best (3 goals) and Ba+HBA (0 goals). I'm wondering if you're going to say that the reason Ba+Best got 3 goals is because we were at home?

 

(I'd like to see more of HBA and I don't think Best is playing all that well right now - it just looks as though Ba has more time/space when there's Shola or Best alongside him)

[Stu]

I'd rather play Ba/Ben Arfa in these winnable games and go for the first goal rather than going for workrate and then bringing flair off the bench when we fall behind or fail to get a goal. It seems a bit negative to be playing Best at home to West Brom with Ben Arfa sat on the bench. I might understand the logic of that in a physical contest against Stoke or a game where we need all hands on deck against Man City. Against Swansea or West Brom at home you get your dangerous players at them and you bring Shola or Best off the bench to help defend a lead.

 

It makes little sense and makes me wonder if something has happened behind the scenes. With Ba off to Africa soon now more than ever is the time to give Ben Arfa his chance because if we don't get him firing and don't sign a striker we'll be in trouble.

 

good post

[Mick]

 

 

 

You've both stated that the overriding factor behind Ba+HBA not working is the quality of opposition faced (Chelsea, Man U, Man C).

 

We've played Blackburn with Ba+Best (3 goals) and Ba+HBA (0 goals). I'm wondering if you're going to say that the reason Ba+Best got 3 goals is because we were at home?

 

(I'd like to see more of HBA and I don't think Best is playing all that well right now - it just looks as though Ba has more time/space when there's Shola or Best alongside him)

 

I pointed out that 3 out of the 4 teams you were using against a partnership was against 3 of the current top 4 so you can't compare playing those teams to playing most of the teams faced by Ba, Best and Shola.  I actually thought that the Ba/Ben Arfa wasn't too bad against Man City and Man U and I think taking a point from Man U with a goal scored by Ba and made by Ben Arfa is one of our best results so far this season, if not the best.

 

I didn't see Ba having any more time on the ball against Swansea and West Brom when he was playing with Best, what I did see was Ba doing everything he could to get goals while Best did next to nothing.

 

[ujpest doza]

He's certainly better than Ameobi, I hope no-one is disputing that

My mother is better than Ameobi man.

 

[Dr Venkman]

 

 

 

You've both stated that the overriding factor behind Ba+HBA not working is the quality of opposition faced (Chelsea, Man U, Man C).

 

We've played Blackburn with Ba+Best (3 goals) and Ba+HBA (0 goals). I'm wondering if you're going to say that the reason Ba+Best got 3 goals is because we were at home?

 

(I'd like to see more of HBA and I don't think Best is playing all that well right now - it just looks as though Ba has more time/space when there's Shola or Best alongside him)

 

I pointed out that 3 out of the 4 teams you were using against a partnership was against 3 of the current top 4 so you can't compare playing those teams to playing most of the teams faced by Ba, Best and Shola.  I actually thought that the Ba/Ben Arfa wasn't too bad against Man City and Man U and I think taking a point from Man U with a goal scored by Ba and made by Ben Arfa is one of our best results so far this season, if not the best.

 

I didn't see Ba having any more time on the ball against Swansea and West Brom when he was playing with Best, what I did see was Ba doing everything he could to get goals while Best did next to nothing.

 

Yeah, it's entirely feasible that Ba will get more time and space while Ben Arfa is surrounded by defenders, we know that HBA has the vision and skill to get the ball to him because we've seen him do it against Man City and for our last goal against West Brom.

 

I respect the views of those that say Ba might benefit more with a target man type next to him, however I think we've seen enough to warrant HBA and Ba getting a run of games together. Alternatively Pardew can stop being an absolute twat and get HBA on the wing instead of Obertan and our best players on the pitch together.