Unbelievable Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 after Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 There's only one interest free loan to Ashley i thought Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 after Aye. Dunno why anyone pays any notice to him tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TherealnorthernTOON Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Bet Mike signed up Kinnear to be our very own 'Arry on deadline day tapping up players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themanupstairs Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Pack it in lads. We're signing nee fucker. Just turn up on the Monday when we play Man City and support the team that's out there. This shit is doing my fucking head in. Fuck 'em all I say. Ashley, Kinnear, Pardew, the players, the whole lot. Sent from beyond using smoke signals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Okay, so there are no bank loans, but how big is that loan to Ashley? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanj Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 A shrewd owner and chairmen would have made the most of the summer after we finished 5th. With smart and astute investment including strengthening the management team and playing staff we could have easily kicked on. He's created a ceiling in which we can perform with the way he runs this club. Not asking for bags and bags of money to be spent either man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Okay, so there are no bank loans, but how big is that loan to Ashley? Over £100m last count. Basically it was the debt the club owed, that the idiot didn't find out about when he failed to do due diligence when he bought us. He paid it all off with his money as an interest free loan (the £100m +). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/newcastle-transfers-bafetimbi-gomis-move-2109465 Oh what to believe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanj Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Yes something like 130M +/- in debt. The fucked up thing is that he paid it off and still wants it paid back. The next person who buys this club will have to retire that "loan" to Mike Ashley but essentially its going to just be extra equity. We'd be better off paying down this loan every year, which correct me If I'm wrong, we are now doing. This will over time lower the asking price of the club if he were ever to have mercy on our souls and sell to someone who gives a fuck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Yes something like 130M +/- in debt. The fucked up thing is that he paid it off and still wants it paid back. The next person who buys this club will have to retire that "loan" to Mike Ashley but essentially its going to just be extra equity. We'd be better off paying down this loan every year, which correct me If I'm wrong, we are now doing. This will over time lower the asking price of the club if he were ever to have mercy on our souls and sell to someone who gives a fuck. And that's why Barry Moat didn't buy us, when the price was £80m or so, it was £80m plus the interest free loan. So in reality it was £200m or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What is it with people thinking a company that has paid off its debts is worth LESS to potential buyers than one that hasn't, what with assets being the same and profitability probably higher (otherwise how pay off the loan). I'm no accountant, but when Ashley starts repaying large chunks of our interest free loan, I don't see how that benefits the club or us as supporters at all. It's just profits going out of the company that could have been reinvested, and has no (negative) bearing on any asking price for the club, or am I missing something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe_next_year Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What is it with people thinking a company that has paid off its debts is worth LESS to potential buyers than one that hasn't, what with assets being the same and profitability probably higher (otherwise how pay off the loan). I'm no accountant, but when Ashley starts repaying large chunks of our interest free loan, I don't see how that benefits the club or us as supporters at all. It's just profits going out of the company that could have been reinvested, and has no (negative) bearing on any asking price for the club, or am I missing something? The loan i believe can be made to be paid in full back to Ashley at any time, so if you pay the asking price for the club, your also going to have to pay that £100million quid loan back straight away on top of it too. SO if he's asking for £200million for the club, the real price will actually be £300 million for any buyers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henke Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 So in effect we're not debt free at all. It's just there's a hidden debt which incurs no interest. Like when you borrow money off yer mam. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What is it with people thinking a company that has paid off its debts is worth LESS to potential buyers than one that hasn't, what with assets being the same and profitability probably higher (otherwise how pay off the loan). I'm no accountant, but when Ashley starts repaying large chunks of our interest free loan, I don't see how that benefits the club or us as supporters at all. It's just profits going out of the company that could have been reinvested, and has no (negative) bearing on any asking price for the club, or am I missing something? The loan i believe can be made to be paid in full back to Ashley at any time, so if you pay the asking price for the club, your also going to have to pay that £100million quid loan back straight away on top of it too. SO if he's asking for £200million for the club, the real price will actually be £300 million for any buyers. I understand that people think that way, but in general terms, isn't the asking price of a company being sold largely based on its assets (i.e. objects or intangibles, or in our case players' resale value for the main part), its equity (how much of the financing of the assets are owned by the company itself vs how much by others, banks, etc. - the higher the part owned by the company itself, the better in terms of company value) and its profitability (the more profitable a company, the easier it is to get a return on investment). I know of no valuation mechanism where paying off loans to outside parties (i.e. the company effectively owning more of its assets outright) is considered a bad thing for its overall value when it is up for sale. Again, what am I missing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 We are debt free to Banks unlike all the other clubs, we owe fatty the money. Which other clubs are borrowing from banks to fund transfers? The vast majority of funds into clubs appears to be coming from owners pockets. If I were a credit officer at a bank and was asked to write a loan to a football club to fund transfers, the request would be almost surely get shredded. I can barely imagine a worse use of funds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What is it with people thinking a company that has paid off its debts is worth LESS to potential buyers than one that hasn't, what with assets being the same and profitability probably higher (otherwise how pay off the loan). I'm no accountant, but when Ashley starts repaying large chunks of our interest free loan, I don't see how that benefits the club or us as supporters at all. It's just profits going out of the company that could have been reinvested, and has no (negative) bearing on any asking price for the club, or am I missing something? Whether you have paid off debts or not is largely irrelevant in valuing thr company. You value the business operations- that is what you are buying. To get to the value of the equity in the business you take the business valuation (usually a multiple of earnings) then subtract long-term debt (ie not day-to-day working capital) and add back cash. There was a great article on this featuring David Wilkinson of Deloitte, who is a very nice man and clearly knows his stuff: http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/how-much-would-cost-buy-4803989 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Everton are a great example of a club up shit creek. Mortgaged the new TV money last season iirc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 The funny thing is, we don't even need to go mad. Around 20m on new players would suffice, its not like we are asking the board to do a Man City or anything like that. Remy and Gomis would transform our prospects TBH, just those two would do me easily. Could very well still happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What is it with people thinking a company that has paid off its debts is worth LESS to potential buyers than one that hasn't, what with assets being the same and profitability probably higher (otherwise how pay off the loan). I'm no accountant, but when Ashley starts repaying large chunks of our interest free loan, I don't see how that benefits the club or us as supporters at all. It's just profits going out of the company that could have been reinvested, and has no (negative) bearing on any asking price for the club, or am I missing something? Whether you have paid off debts or not is largely irrelevant in valuing thr company. You value the business operations- that is what you are buying. To get to the value of the equity in the business you take the business valuation (usually a multiple of earnings) then subtract long-term debt (ie not day-to-day working capital) and add back cash. There was a great article on this featuring David Wilkinson of Deloitte, who is a very nice man and clearly knows his stuff: http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/how-much-would-cost-buy-4803989 “The wages last year were £64m from a revenue of £94m, so that is about 70%, so they are 20% over the top.” Splash another £20m on players would you mike, it'll be 'reet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What is it with people thinking a company that has paid off its debts is worth LESS to potential buyers than one that hasn't, what with assets being the same and profitability probably higher (otherwise how pay off the loan). I'm no accountant, but when Ashley starts repaying large chunks of our interest free loan, I don't see how that benefits the club or us as supporters at all. It's just profits going out of the company that could have been reinvested, and has no (negative) bearing on any asking price for the club, or am I missing something? Whether you have paid off debts or not is largely irrelevant in valuing thr company. You value the business operations- that is what you are buying. To get to the value of the equity in the business you take the business valuation (usually a multiple of earnings) then subtract long-term debt (ie not day-to-day working capital) and add back cash. There was a great article on this featuring David Wilkinson of Deloitte, who is a very nice man and clearly knows his stuff: http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/how-much-would-cost-buy-4803989 Good read. Some excellent reactions to it as well. Here's a section from somebody who seems to know what he's talking about, which backs up my point, as you do too btw, that Ashley paying off the debt will not automatically lower Ashley's asking price, but will more likely have the opposite effect: The point is that if Ashley takes an optimistic view of the above , then irrespective of his personal feelings .. he could project the club generating profits each year, and paying down his debt ....... irrespective of his personal liking for his role as chairman .. the club would become expensive to buy from a purely commercial view point .. but of course potentially more attractive to a potential acquirer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuy_O Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 We are debt free to Banks unlike all the other clubs, we owe fatty the money. Which other clubs are borrowing from banks to fund transfers? The vast majority of funds into clubs appears to be coming from owners pockets. If I were a credit officer at a bank and was asked to write a loan to a football club to fund transfers, the request would be almost surely get shredded. I can barely imagine a worse use of funds. Not just transfers though is it clubs use money for though is it? Training facilities, stadium expansions are all areas a club would look to a bank to surely? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 What is it with people thinking a company that has paid off its debts is worth LESS to potential buyers than one that hasn't, what with assets being the same and profitability probably higher (otherwise how pay off the loan). I'm no accountant, but when Ashley starts repaying large chunks of our interest free loan, I don't see how that benefits the club or us as supporters at all. It's just profits going out of the company that could have been reinvested, and has no (negative) bearing on any asking price for the club, or am I missing something? Whether you have paid off debts or not is largely irrelevant in valuing thr company. You value the business operations- that is what you are buying. To get to the value of the equity in the business you take the business valuation (usually a multiple of earnings) then subtract long-term debt (ie not day-to-day working capital) and add back cash. There was a great article on this featuring David Wilkinson of Deloitte, who is a very nice man and clearly knows his stuff: http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/how-much-would-cost-buy-4803989 “The wages last year were £64m from a revenue of £94m, so that is about 70%, so they are 20% over the top.” Splash another £20m on players would you mike, it'll be 'reet. Do you or do you not accept that in today's top flight football, most if not all (other) clubs do not live within their means, and indeed many receive outside investment from their owners? If so, how do you expect us to compete with them long term? There's a balance to be struck here between financial awareness and controlled ambition, which is not only absolute, but also relative to our competitors, and we're nowhere near getting it right. If I was a shareholder of NUFC I would be delighted by Ashley's management, but I'm not. I'm a football fan, and I want to be entertained for the money and effort I put into the club, not support a balance sheet, but a team sheet. If Ashley does not understand the difference between a SD shop and NUFC he's even thicker than he looks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henke Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Have we not gone from a situation where during the first year Ashley was in charge he was pledging iirc £35mil of his own money, year on year. To now where he's skimming the profits to pay back his own interest free loan. That leaves us upwards of £40mil a year worse off, with an owner who has zero ambition beyond getting his money back. We're absolutely fucked until this bloke moves on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Will be interesting to see what happens to all these posts talking about ambition if we land the two strikers we need. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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