Guest Howaythetoon Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Of course. What I don't agree with is HTT suggesting we're capable of the heights achieved by Bobby's entertainers. We had so much quality all over the pitch then, man. Did we really? We had a Coventry flop in Bellamy, an unknown Frenchman, an ageing Shearer and Speed, an injury plagued Dyer and the likes of Dabizas in defence. We had a front 6 back then to rival any in the league back then and you know it. They all complimented each other perfectly, too. We did and we do today, but unlike Shearer et al, our lot now do not compliment each other in the same kind of way and again that's down to the manager and the tactics/system/formation etc. he deploys. I agree the manager is getting it wrong. Massively wrong. But our side today is well short of the circa 2003 quality. We will have to agree to disagree then. Bobby's side was better balanced, had more leaders and players with good mental strength and it also had more pace but this side has more technical ability and more diverseness. We have more options today basically. Back then it was 4-4-2 or nothing. Shearer up top, Bellamy off him, two wingers, a sitting midfielder and a runner, again or nothing. Back then there was less better sides than exist today too. I just wonder what this team would achieve with someone like Bobby managing them or even KK. We would certainly play much better football which will always give you the chance of finishing in high places. This lot against the SBR side would either lose 4-1 and get blown away or win 2-1 and grind it out. A prime Bellamy is reminiscent of Shane Long and we hate to see him. 9 times out of 10 though this side would lose and Bellamy was a far better player than Long and still is probably. Long is an over the top type forward, who rarely gets involved, Bellamy was a wide man, a forward attacker, a link up man, basically someone who got involved wherever he was on the pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedudeabides Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Two pretty extreme examples when the team had passes its peak. We had far more quality back then - through the spine and out wide. Andy O'Brien played a few games, I mentioned the first two that came to mind and didn't go into much detail or I could have also mentioned Pattison, McClen, Hamilton, Chopra, Carr, Quinn etc. All managers have to field players who are not first choice. We were on about the side that finished 3rd, Mick. Chopra, Pattison, McClen, Hamilton, Carr and Quinn are names you picked from thin air - or from later or earlier periods. 4th and 3rd really. Even the side that finished 3rd had some dross or average players. For me, this is our strongest squad since then and several of our players would get into Sir Bobby's side if I were picking them. For definite I'd put Ben Arfa in for Solano and Colo in for O'Brien. Krul and Santon also make cases for inclusion. Solano was a much better all round player than Ben Arfa for me, and Given better than Krul. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 We were some side back then though weren't we, not the best of course but one of the best. Nobby, Speed, Dyer, Robert, Shearer and Bellamy were such a potent force and as Ronaldo rightly said, a 6 to rival any. They were allowed to play though and given the freedom to express themselves. Speaking of the Euro game argument, I remember we had a fantastic record of winning or not losing games on the back of a midweek Euro game and I also remember Bobby saying these are young fit lads who if given the chance would play every day never mind a twice a week. He wasn't talking about Shearer and Speed obviously That side had tremendous energy and pace and that's what we lack today, there is no urgency or attacking verve, its all rather static, once paced and lacking in energy. Like any true TEAM they were better as a unit than individually unlike this lot. Furthermore, we always tried to play to our strengths. You worry about us! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 We were on about the side that finished 3rd, Mick. Chopra, Pattison, McClen, Hamilton, Carr and Quinn are names you picked from thin air - or from later or earlier periods. Hamilton, Pattison and Carr weren't playing when we finished 3rd so I'll take them out and add Griffin, Hughes and Viana. Two of which were better RBs than Danny Simpson and James Perch. And Viana? You mad? I'd say Griffin was on a par with Simpson and likewise Hughes vs Perch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Solano was great for that TEAM. You had Bellamy & Dyer that thrived off cute passes so a Solano was necessity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Bobby's team were a country mile better than the current crop. Please let's not get silly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Two of which were better RBs than Danny Simpson and James Perch. And Viana? You mad? Viana started 11 games and I think he came off the bench as many times, the same season we finished 3rd also saw us playing 14 games in the Champions League. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Hughes is a better player than Perch/Simpson. Like still. Perch is a CB to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Two of which were better RBs than Danny Simpson and James Perch. And Viana? You mad? Viana started 11 games and I think he came off the bench as many times, the same season we finished 3rd also saw us playing 14 games in the Champions League. Which speaks to my point about us having far more quality back then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Wish we still had Hughes now as he'd be my first choice alongside Colo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Bobby's team were a country mile better than the current crop. Please let's not get silly. Bull. Better yes, but not by a country mile. Regardless, there can be no denying this is the best squad or side we've had since then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Bobby's team were a country mile better than the current crop. Please let's not get silly. Playing a style of football which brought the best out of our team made a massive difference. Our defence when we finished 3rd was mainly Griffin, Hughes, O'Brien and Bernard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 The only players who are performing consistently for Pardew at the moment, and that doesn't mean they are playing at their best (they need others and a system to help them reach this), are Colo, Ba and Ben Arfa. I don't think Pards' training sessions are the reason for this; Colo is our captain, Ba and Ben Arfa have been Mollycoddled for a while now and all get great plaudits from their manager...Roll on confidence levels! The rest of our team are playing in fits and starts, these boys are saving our bacon at the moment. Why is this? It can only be confidence when you get out on the field, I think we lack a reason to be there, we don't know whether to go all out, Attack or defend? possession or direct? knock it about and draw the oppostion forward and counter attack or just bung it up long ball all day. We lack a real system and a characteristic of play. Keegan had his "We will outscore the opposition", we knew we were going all guns no matter what... Dalgleish played a team of old mates who weren't up to it and our games were non descript without format whatsoever... Bobby played some very well organised 442 or 4411 which only fell apart when his team got too big for their boots. Everybody knew what was expected then... Pardew has great soundbites but the team hasn't got their own style yet, We need this so much. A team is a team and I don't think the 442 we play when all are fit is the answer, it just doesn't work for us. We all know the names on the sheet but the team just doesn't perform... What's the answer? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 We need to accept that Pardew did fantastically well last year over achieving with a limited squad. We're not really a top 6 side but we punched above our weight due to Pards. It's harsh to expect a repeat performance; I think a lot on here overrate a lot of our players. Only Krul, Colo, HBA and Ba are top six players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 We need to accept that Pardew did fantastically well last year over achieving with a limited squad. We're not really a top 6 side but we punched above our weight due to Pards. It's harsh to expect a repeat performance; I think a lot on here overrate a lot of our players. Only Krul, Colo, HBA and Ba are top six players. Santon, Cabaye, Tiote and Cisse are all top 6 players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 69 points in our best finish under Bobby (3rd place season), 65 last year. Personally don't think there's that much difference between the personel on paper; both have quality players but also a lot of squad players who'd get nowhere near a genuine title challenging team. The difference is that Bobby had a team playing confidently to their strengths that was more worried about our own gameplan than what the opposition was doing. It's also interesting that both teams (11/12 and 02/03) had significantly worse GD than the other teams around them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 We need to accept that Pardew did fantastically well last year over achieving with a limited squad. We're not really a top 6 side but we punched above our weight due to Pards. It's harsh to expect a repeat performance; I think a lot on here overrate a lot of our players. Only Krul, Colo, HBA and Ba are top six players. Try harder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 regardless of formations and starting line-up, or style of play through a lot of last and the whole of this current season in the prem is play deep and hit teams on the counter with hoof balls. is that down to lack of quality players or Pardew? I wonder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 "Confidence" is the main word missing here. I think I have only seen bits and pieces this season when the team has played with a little verve and passed the ball around like a team that knows they're not going to lose it. Lately, we seem to play only the "safe pass" unless we are twenty yards into the opposition half, our movement has also been very pedestrian and predictable, we need more freedom and interchange of positons to compliment our attacks. The only attacking formats we employ at the moment are: Ben arfa... on your own mate! Santon overlap Long ball to ... Shola/Ba/cisse (whoever is last man) On paper we should be a lot better... Who is to blame? players and confidence (we didn't buy anyone of note in summer, are they disgruntled? Is it that they don't fit into either a 442/433?) Or Are Pards and the backroom getting all the decisions wron? Team selection...System...Training Team selection and system for me... Sorry but we just aren't doing it, Cut Pard's cock off so that he can friggin concentrate on what he's supposed to be doin!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Maybe it's all an elaborate ploy from Pardew so people don't bid for our best players? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexthegreat Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 As stated above, there were 5 players in the starting line up who wouldn't attract any attention from a side hoping to get in the top half. Add a poor performance from Cabaye and an ineffective 2nd half from Ben Arfa and we aren't going to resemble a top 4 side in any way shape or form. One slight criticism I would make towards Pardew is that I think he is showing a bit too much loyalty towards squad players who delivered for him before. I'm sure Anita has more to offer than Perch. I like Perch but theres a limit to what he can do (certainly in an attacking sense). Maybe Anita isn't ready yet, but hes been here a few months now - not playing isnt going to help him. Meanwhile Perch has made more appearances than anyone else in the squad. Likewise Jonas has done a good job for Pardew, but there now appears to be other options who could offer more going forward in his position than him. But yet again he plays the full 90. And Shola on the wing? He wouldn't be the first manager to place too much loyalty in certain players, but I think it has to be worth taking a bit of a chance on the likes of Anita, Ferguson, and Sammy rather than players you have faith in but also know can never be spectacular. If HBA and Cabaye weren't at the top of their games there was no way that side today could have produced a good performance, a different team selection may have helped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 We need to accept that Pardew did fantastically well last year over achieving with a limited squad. We're not really a top 6 side but we punched above our weight due to Pards. It's harsh to expect a repeat performance; I think a lot on here overrate a lot of our players. Only Krul, Colo, HBA and Ba are top six players. Santon, Cabaye, Tiote and Cisse are all top 6 players. Not sure about that tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 Sir Bobby > Pardew Dont think any will disagree on this board. We dont want to imagine how Bobby could lead this team of players to play better football. We Know it since we have seen it before and being spoiled by it hence the debate on Pardew. Pardew Talks a good game but performances are s*** tbh. Whoever thats currently enjoying how we are playing has really low standards. Worst teams has came to St James and play better as a team/unit, No excuses for Pardew no matter how your fend for him Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 We need to accept that Pardew did fantastically well last year over achieving with a limited squad. We're not really a top 6 side but we punched above our weight due to Pards. It's harsh to expect a repeat performance; I think a lot on here overrate a lot of our players. Only Krul, Colo, HBA and Ba are top six players. Santon, Cabaye, Tiote and Cisse are all top 6 players. Not sure about that tbh. Didn't we just finish 5th? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted October 28, 2012 Share Posted October 28, 2012 I've had long standing concerns over Tiote and Cabaye (personally I dont think either would get in a English CL side) whilst time will tell whether Cisse is true quality or just a player who went through a mad purple patch last season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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