Kick It Out

[ujpest doza]

Racism in Football is all but gone in my John Humble.

Probably one of the worst comments I've ever read on here. What a f***ing joke

Like s**** is it.

 

There used to be OOO OOO OOO ing, Booing, Monkey Noises, Bananas thrown on the pitch, chants of he's a wog a wog etc etc at English Footballs (and SJP was one of the worst for it) grounds every week all over the country and blokes lined up selling NF literature behind the Gallowgate End.

 

You never hear or see any of that now and haven't for donkeys years.

 

 

Racism can simultaneously be less prevalent but not 'all but gone'.

It's all but gone, it's major news now if there is the slightest hint of anything racist whereas 30 years ago it was virtually the norm at football matches.

 

 

It was pretty recently that a significant part of the crowd at St James didn't take any issue with singing "Kenwyn Jones sells watches on the beach"

I'll most likely get hammered for this but i actually thought that was quite ingenious and quite funny as anyone who's ever been to Ibiza, majorca, tenerife, benidorm etc would get the joke.

 

[gbandit]

I'll most likely get hammered for this but i actually thought that was quite ingenious and quite funny as anyone who's ever been to Ibiza, majorca, tenerife, benidorm etc would get the joke.

aye, a real classic there. Hope Michael McIntyre was attending the game that day as that'll have taught him a thing or two about observational humour

[Superior Acuña]

Racism in Football is all but gone in my John Humble.

Probably one of the worst comments I've ever read on here. What a f***ing joke

Like s**** is it.

 

There used to be OOO OOO OOO ing, Booing, Monkey Noises, Bananas thrown on the pitch, chants of he's a wog a wog etc etc at English Footballs (and SJP was one of the worst for it) grounds every week all over the country and blokes lined up selling NF literature behind the Gallowgate End.

 

You never hear or see any of that now and haven't for donkeys years.

 

 

Racism can simultaneously be less prevalent but not 'all but gone'.

It's all but gone, it's major news now if there is the slightest hint of anything racist whereas 30 years ago it was virtually the norm at football matches.

 

 

It was pretty recently that a significant part of the crowd at St James didn't take any issue with singing "Kenwyn Jones sells watches on the beach"

I'll most likely get hammered for this but i actually thought that was quite ingenious and quite funny as anyone who's ever been to Ibiza, majorca, tenerife, benidorm etc would get the joke.

 

 

I get it, and that's how I know it's racist.

[ujpest doza]

Racism in Football is all but gone in my John Humble.

Probably one of the worst comments I've ever read on here. What a f***ing joke

Like s**** is it.

 

There used to be OOO OOO OOO ing, Booing, Monkey Noises, Bananas thrown on the pitch, chants of he's a wog a wog etc etc at English Footballs (and SJP was one of the worst for it) grounds every week all over the country and blokes lined up selling NF literature behind the Gallowgate End.

 

You never hear or see any of that now and haven't for donkeys years.

 

 

Racism can simultaneously be less prevalent but not 'all but gone'.

It's all but gone, it's major news now if there is the slightest hint of anything racist whereas 30 years ago it was virtually the norm at football matches.

 

 

It was pretty recently that a significant part of the crowd at St James didn't take any issue with singing "Kenwyn Jones sells watches on the beach"

I'll most likely get hammered for this but i actually thought that was quite ingenious and quite funny as anyone who's ever been to Ibiza, majorca, tenerife, benidorm etc would get the joke.

 

 

I get it, and that's how I know it's racist.

I don't think it is.

[wormy]

Racism in Football is all but gone in my John Humble.

Probably one of the worst comments I've ever read on here. What a f***ing joke

Like s**** is it.

 

There used to be OOO OOO OOO ing, Booing, Monkey Noises, Bananas thrown on the pitch, chants of he's a wog a wog etc etc at English Footballs (and SJP was one of the worst for it) grounds every week all over the country and blokes lined up selling NF literature behind the Gallowgate End.

 

You never hear or see any of that now and haven't for donkeys years.

 

 

Racism can simultaneously be less prevalent but not 'all but gone'.

It's all but gone, it's major news now if there is the slightest hint of anything racist whereas 30 years ago it was virtually the norm at football matches.

 

 

It was pretty recently that a significant part of the crowd at St James didn't take any issue with singing "Kenwyn Jones sells watches on the beach"

I'll most likely get hammered for this but i actually thought that was quite ingenious and quite funny as anyone who's ever been to Ibiza, majorca, tenerife, benidorm etc would get the joke.

 

 

I get it, and that's how I know it's racist.

I don't think it is.

 

Wow.

 

I think I'm still trying to get over the initial shock of 'you've obviously never been on holiday where Africans sell you shit on the beach, so you don't get it'. That's amazing.

[Deuce]

That'll be Rio out of the club in Jan/ next Summer then. Shitty from Ferguson still.

 

A convenient excuse to drop an aging player. Long-time coming, imo.

[Deuce]

Racism in Football is all but gone in my John Humble.

Probably one of the worst comments I've ever read on here. What a f***ing joke

Like s**** is it.

 

There used to be OOO OOO OOO ing, Booing, Monkey Noises, Bananas thrown on the pitch, chants of he's a wog a wog etc etc at English Footballs (and SJP was one of the worst for it) grounds every week all over the country and blokes lined up selling NF literature behind the Gallowgate End.

 

You never hear or see any of that now and haven't for donkeys years.

 

 

Racism can simultaneously be less prevalent but not 'all but gone'.

It's all but gone, it's major news now if there is the slightest hint of anything racist whereas 30 years ago it was virtually the norm at football matches.

 

 

It was pretty recently that a significant part of the crowd at St James didn't take any issue with singing "Kenwyn Jones sells watches on the beach"

I'll most likely get hammered for this but i actually thought that was quite ingenious and quite funny as anyone who's ever been to Ibiza, majorca, tenerife, benidorm etc would get the joke.

 

 

I get it, and that's how I know it's racist.

I don't think it is.

 

Wow.

 

I think I'm still trying to get over the initial shock of 'you've obviously never been on holiday where Africans sell you shit on the beach, so you don't get it'. That's amazing.

 

Yep, outrageously daft comment.

 

The "joke" is about as "ingenious" as me eating more fiber to stop the runny shits. Fuck off that was a brilliant joke, it was fucking lame.

[wormy]

Racism in Football is all but gone in my John Humble.

Probably one of the worst comments I've ever read on here. What a f***ing joke

Like s**** is it.

 

There used to be OOO OOO OOO ing, Booing, Monkey Noises, Bananas thrown on the pitch, chants of he's a wog a wog etc etc at English Footballs (and SJP was one of the worst for it) grounds every week all over the country and blokes lined up selling NF literature behind the Gallowgate End.

 

You never hear or see any of that now and haven't for donkeys years.

 

 

Racism can simultaneously be less prevalent but not 'all but gone'.

It's all but gone, it's major news now if there is the slightest hint of anything racist whereas 30 years ago it was virtually the norm at football matches.

 

 

It was pretty recently that a significant part of the crowd at St James didn't take any issue with singing "Kenwyn Jones sells watches on the beach"

I'll most likely get hammered for this but i actually thought that was quite ingenious and quite funny as anyone who's ever been to Ibiza, majorca, tenerife, benidorm etc would get the joke.

 

 

I get it, and that's how I know it's racist.

I don't think it is.

 

Wow.

 

I think I'm still trying to get over the initial shock of 'you've obviously never been on holiday where Africans sell you shit on the beach, so you don't get it'. That's amazing.

 

Yep, outrageously daft comment.

 

The "joke" is about as "ingenious" as me eating more fiber to stop the runny shits. Fuck off that was a brilliant joke, it was fucking lame.

 

Your intellect just isn't deep enough to comprehend. The lad that coined this chant is ahead of our time, dude.

[Deuce]

Racism in Football is all but gone in my John Humble.

Probably one of the worst comments I've ever read on here. What a f***ing joke

Like s**** is it.

 

There used to be OOO OOO OOO ing, Booing, Monkey Noises, Bananas thrown on the pitch, chants of he's a wog a wog etc etc at English Footballs (and SJP was one of the worst for it) grounds every week all over the country and blokes lined up selling NF literature behind the Gallowgate End.

 

You never hear or see any of that now and haven't for donkeys years.

 

 

Racism can simultaneously be less prevalent but not 'all but gone'.

It's all but gone, it's major news now if there is the slightest hint of anything racist whereas 30 years ago it was virtually the norm at football matches.

 

 

It was pretty recently that a significant part of the crowd at St James didn't take any issue with singing "Kenwyn Jones sells watches on the beach"

I'll most likely get hammered for this but i actually thought that was quite ingenious and quite funny as anyone who's ever been to Ibiza, majorca, tenerife, benidorm etc would get the joke.

 

 

I get it, and that's how I know it's racist.

I don't think it is.

 

Wow.

 

I think I'm still trying to get over the initial shock of 'you've obviously never been on holiday where Africans sell you shit on the beach, so you don't get it'. That's amazing.

 

Yep, outrageously daft comment.

 

The "joke" is about as "ingenious" as me eating more fiber to stop the runny shits. Fuck off that was a brilliant joke, it was fucking lame.

 

Your intellect just isn't deep enough to comprehend. The lad that coined this chant is ahead of our time, dude.

 

So meta. The meta-ist.

[Wullie]

I don't think it's particularly racist either but we now live in a society where almost any comment on the appearance of a black person is treading on eggshells. Whether you think that's right or wrong, that's where we are.

[ujpest doza]

I don't think it's particularly racist either but we now live in a society where almost any comment on the appearance of a black person is treading on eggshells. Whether you think that's right or wrong, that's where we are.

It's probably not politcally correct but i don't think it's racist, fine line between the 2 though.

 

[Superior Acuña]

I think it's obviously racist. You're comparing him to (often illegal) African migrans who sell things on beaches in Europe because he's also black. And it's obviously being done in a contemptuous way, I don't think it's implied that these gentlemen are particularly respected members of society.

[Wullie]

It's not because he's black per se though is it, he obviously looks a lot more like your stereotypical beach trader than, for example, Jermaine Defoe does. And it's obviously being done in a contemptuous way, "Kenwyne Jones is a really canny lad" doesn't have quite the same terrace tone about it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself any more than calling Kevin Phillips 'Ratboy'.

 

At its base level it's essentially the same insult - it's picking up on a particular characteristic of a person's appearance and using it to insult them, of which being black is only part of that appearance. If I go to the match and call Gareth Bale a chimp faced fucking cheat, nobody cares, nor do they care if I sing about Peter Reid having a monkey's heed. Now if I aim the same insult at an unspecified black player, even one I'd singled out purely on the basis that his features, like Bale or Reid, really really looked like a monkey, that's an automatic banning order, no questions asked

 

We are in a time and place where, if the person is black, commenting on their appearance is effectively not acceptable, no matter what the comment. I don't necessarily have a problem with that as a zero tolerance approach has probably helped us get where we are today but I don't think it's right to call people racists if they choose to sing that particular song because I don't think it's as clear cut as you make out.

[Neil]

It's not because he's black per se though is it, he obviously looks a lot more like your stereotypical beach trader than, for example, Jermaine Defoe does. And it's obviously being done in a contemptuous way, "Kenwyne Jones is a really canny lad" doesn't have quite the same terrace tone about it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself any more than calling Kevin Phillips 'Ratboy'.

 

At its base level it's essentially the same insult - it's picking up on a particular characteristic of a person's appearance and using it to insult them, of which being black is only part of that appearance. If I go to the match and call Gareth Bale a chimp faced fucking cheat, nobody cares, nor do they care if I sing about Peter Reid having a monkey's heed. Now if I aim the same insult at an unspecified black player, even one I'd singled out purely on the basis that his features, like Bale or Reid, really really looked like a monkey, that's an automatic banning order, no questions asked

 

We are in a time and place where, if the person is black, commenting on their appearance is effectively not acceptable, no matter what the comment. I don't necessarily have a problem with that as a zero tolerance approach has probably helped us get where we are today but I don't think it's right to call people racists if they choose to sing that particular song because I don't think it's as clear cut as you make out.

 

Agree with your post here. I think the prevailing attitude of a conservative society is that you would be derided as "being racist" (using your post here as an example) and that your comments are distinctions without a difference. The whole point of course is that there are differences.

 

Things like this aren't debated in a mainstream, public forum, which doesn't help. The issue is there will always be idiots who don't understand the difference between actual banter (a rare usage of this word in its natural context?!) with someone who happens to be black, and racially derogatory comments against someone because he is black. I mean that both in terms of actual morons who think it's acceptable to use the latter 'interpretation', and also people in positions of power who promote anything negative as automatically 'racist', i.e. much of the media.

 

I dunno, it's hard to really articulate the issue at the heart of this debate succinctly. It's interesting you point out the fact a zero tolerance approach may  have helped us make progess in recent decades and that's a view I'd share, but surely you can't keep "zero-tolerating" everything. Education and tolerance need to prevail or we'll be in a nasty circle for decades to come IMO.

[gbandit]

Arguing that things have become too politically correct is fair. But people always want black or white, with the inbetween stuff, there'll always be people who get upset about nothing and people who never get upset about anything. This aside, I don't think people can argue that 'Kenwyne Jones sells watches on the beaches' does not have racist undertones. Certainly, for people who have racist tendencies, chants like this will potentially fuel them going for more full-on racial abuse.

[Wullie]

It's not because he's black per se though is it, he obviously looks a lot more like your stereotypical beach trader than, for example, Jermaine Defoe does. And it's obviously being done in a contemptuous way, "Kenwyne Jones is a really canny lad" doesn't have quite the same terrace tone about it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself any more than calling Kevin Phillips 'Ratboy'.

 

At its base level it's essentially the same insult - it's picking up on a particular characteristic of a person's appearance and using it to insult them, of which being black is only part of that appearance. If I go to the match and call Gareth Bale a chimp faced fucking cheat, nobody cares, nor do they care if I sing about Peter Reid having a monkey's heed. Now if I aim the same insult at an unspecified black player, even one I'd singled out purely on the basis that his features, like Bale or Reid, really really looked like a monkey, that's an automatic banning order, no questions asked

 

We are in a time and place where, if the person is black, commenting on their appearance is effectively not acceptable, no matter what the comment. I don't necessarily have a problem with that as a zero tolerance approach has probably helped us get where we are today but I don't think it's right to call people racists if they choose to sing that particular song because I don't think it's as clear cut as you make out.

 

Agree with your post here. I think the prevailing attitude of a conservative society is that you would be derided as "being racist" (using your post here as an example) and that your comments are distinctions without a difference. The whole point of course is that there are differences.

 

Things like this aren't debated in a mainstream, public forum, which doesn't help. The issue is there will always be idiots who don't understand the difference between actual banter (a rare usage of this word in its natural context?!) with someone who happens to be black, and racially derogatory comments against someone because he is black. I mean that both in terms of actual morons who think it's acceptable to use the latter 'interpretation', and also people in positions of power who promote anything negative as automatically 'racist', i.e. much of the media.

 

I dunno, it's hard to really articulate the issue at the heart of this debate succinctly. It's interesting you point out the fact a zero tolerance approach may  have helped us make progess in recent decades and that's a view I'd share, but surely you can't keep "zero-tolerating" everything. Education and tolerance need to prevail or we'll be in a nasty circle for decades to come IMO.

 

Agreed, good post.

 

I do think we're becoming a dangerously mollycoddled society in the UK, not just with regards to race, though that might be where it started and again, maybe that's been a good thing overall, but there's not a day goes by that somebody isn't apologising in the media for offending nobody in particular, usually over some fairly tame comments. The classic for me was Alan Hansen having to apologise for using the word 'coloured' instead of 'black', which I just found astonishing.

 

Probably not one for the football forum really but I do find the whole free speech issue fascinating now in the UK, especially now the internet has become a target for laws.

 

I really love this quote from Stephen Fry: 'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?'

 

Incidentally I was watching this earlier, about free speech more than race but worth a look:

 

Rowan Atkinson's speech at Reform Section 5 Parliamentary reception

[TheHoob]

I'll try and articulate my thoughts on this as best I can but they'll probably come out horribly wrong.

 

Racism for me is all about context and the mindset of the person who is saying things. A child might call one of his friends a ginger idiot, and another of his friends a black idiot, that hardly makes him a racist. The two in the eyes of a child who holds no racial prejudices are just the same.

 

The same goes for if I sing a song like the Kenwyne Jones one to one of my black friends, i'm not a racist and I don't mean it in a racially derogatory way. To me it is just the same as calling a mate with glasses Harry Potter or whatever. That obviously isn't to say that everyone who sings a song like that isn't a racist though, loads of people still are racist and will look down on black players.

 

It annoys me that as soon as someone brings up the colour of someones skin everyone seems ready to pounce and call you a racist. I do still think that racism is a massive problem that needs to be dealt with, but skirting around the issue and being overly defensive about it to me isn't the way to tackle it.

[David Icke - Son of God]

It annoys me that as soon as someone brings up the colour of someones skin everyone seems ready to pounce and call you a racist. I do still think that racism is a massive problem that needs to be dealt with, but skirting around the issue and being overly defensive about it to me isn't the way to tackle it.

 

What do you suggest we call people who use the colour of some one's skin to abuse or denigrate them?

[TheHoob]

It annoys me that as soon as someone brings up the colour of someones skin everyone seems ready to pounce and call you a racist. I do still think that racism is a massive problem that needs to be dealt with, but skirting around the issue and being overly defensive about it to me isn't the way to tackle it.

 

What do you suggest we call people who use the colour of some one's skin to abuse or denigrate them?

 

You've just proved my point. What you describe would be a racist yeah. You can bring up the colour of someones skin without being racist though.

[Superior Acuña]

It's not because he's black per se though is it, he obviously looks a lot more like your stereotypical beach trader than, for example, Jermaine Defoe does. And it's obviously being done in a contemptuous way, "Kenwyne Jones is a really canny lad" doesn't have quite the same terrace tone about it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself any more than calling Kevin Phillips 'Ratboy'.

 

At its base level it's essentially the same insult - it's picking up on a particular characteristic of a person's appearance and using it to insult them, of which being black is only part of that appearance. If I go to the match and call Gareth Bale a chimp faced f***ing cheat, nobody cares, nor do they care if I sing about Peter Reid having a monkey's heed. Now if I aim the same insult at an unspecified black player, even one I'd singled out purely on the basis that his features, like Bale or Reid, really really looked like a monkey, that's an automatic banning order, no questions asked

 

We are in a time and place where, if the person is black, commenting on their appearance is effectively not acceptable, no matter what the comment. I don't necessarily have a problem with that as a zero tolerance approach has probably helped us get where we are today but I don't think it's right to call people racists if they choose to sing that particular song because I don't think it's as clear cut as you make out.

 

Context is hugely important. Calling Peter Reid a monkey and a black person a monkey clearly have completely different connotations if you have any knowledge of the historical context.  As does comparing a black player to a beach seller. I think the crowd are clearly making Jones feel condescended towards in large part because of his race. If I had a white mate with big ears and high cheekbones, and a black mate with dreadlocks - while I wouldn't think it was very nice to call my white mate a monkey, saying "oh you look like one of those african guys who sell cheap watches on beaches" is going to make my black mate feel a lot more excluded and stir up much stronger emotions.

 

It's like calling someone a black bastard is clearly means a lot more than calling someone an English bastard.

[David Icke - Son of God]

It annoys me that as soon as someone brings up the colour of someones skin everyone seems ready to pounce and call you a racist. I do still think that racism is a massive problem that needs to be dealt with, but skirting around the issue and being overly defensive about it to me isn't the way to tackle it.

 

What do you suggest we call people who use the colour of some one's skin to abuse or denigrate them?

 

You've just proved my point. What you describe would be a racist yeah. You can bring up the colour of someones skin without being racist though.

 

Not if you're using it in an abusive way, no you can't.

 

We're meant to be a civil, forward thinking society. If the best insult you can come up with is "black cunt lol" then not only are you a racist but I feel very strongly that you shouldn't be allowed to procreate.

[TheHoob]

I disagree, it is all about context and the intent of the person who said it. If my friends don't find it insulting or racist then why do you feel the need to jump to their defence?

 

I'm not talking about singing songs to black players at a match or shouting abuse at a black man walking down the street, and I don't condone racism at all. You just seem to be putting shouting black cunt at a black player who I don't know on the same level as having a bit of a laugh with my friend.

 

Thanks for that last sentence though, you clearly don't know me at all 

[David Icke - Son of God]

I disagree, it is all about context and the intent of the person who said it. If my friends don't find it insulting or racist then why do you feel the need to jump to their defence?

 

I'm not talking about singing songs to black players at a match or shouting abuse at a black man walking down the street, and I don't condone racism at all. You just seem to be putting shouting black cunt at a black player who I don't know on the same level as having a bit of a laugh with my friend.

 

Thanks for that last sentence though, you clearly don't know me at all 

 

What goes on between friends who have an understanding is a completely different kettle of fish. I'm talking about the undercurrent of latent racism that punctuates debates such as this and can be felt at football matches etc. In those instances I don't think context and intent really matter.

 

I also don't like this notion that only the people who are subject of racism can be offended by it. Just because I'm white and working class it doesn't mean I didn't cringe every time I heard the Kenwyne Jones song. When I complain about racism I'm not doing so on behalf of black people, I'm doing so for me.

[Guest neesy111]

The whole Kenweyne Jones thing reminds me of Mido and him looking like Richard Reid (the shoe bomber).

[TheHoob]

What goes on between friends who have an understanding is a completely different kettle of fish. I'm talking about the undercurrent of latent racism that punctuates debates such as this and can be felt at football matches etc. In those instances I don't think context and intent really matter.

 

I also don't like this notion that only the people who are subject of racism can be offended by it. Just because I'm white and working class it doesn't mean I didn't cringe every time I heard the Kenwyne Jones song. When I complain about racism I'm not doing so on behalf of black people, I'm doing so for me.

 

That is all I was trying to say, I agree with everything else that you've said. Racism is meant to be a thing of the past but you've only got to go to a couple of matches or watch a few games in a pub to know it is still alive and well.