Moyes or Martinez?

[Taylor Swift]

Yeah but a lot of it was his fault. Bruce is up with another team and is doing better than Martinez ever did with Wigan. The season Hull are having now is better than any season that Martinez had with Wigan.

 

Martinez's record is mixed. He's had a brilliant season with Everton but let's see how he shapes the squad. If he buys shit players like he did at Wigan then in three years Everton will look like Villa, no offense to Neil.

[triggs]

Moyes record is great while Martinez's is mixed? Right the guy basically made Swansea a Premier League club, he also won the FA Cup while year after year managing to keep Wigan in the PL despite having by far the worst squad in the league, he's also taken Everton to it's highest point total ever.

 

Frightening how wrong all this is.

 

How is it wrong? I'm not saying he got them into the PL, I'm saying he set a foundation for the club and took them from League one to a playoff challenger in the Championship. Also there's no way you can't agree they didn't have the worst squad in the league year after year.

Last season their team was no worse or not much worse than Norwich, Villa, Reading (they were better than Reading), Sunderland, Fulham and maybe a few more I'm forgetting about

[Mole_Toonfan]

I wonder if people will praise Martinez in the same way they did Moyes if he went for like 5 years just doing what he was supposed to do. Moyes did a fantastic job in building Everton up from the gutter, but for the last 5 years of his Everton tenure he just did what he was supposed to do.... i.e. get 7th/8th every season.

 

Personally i don't think you deserve praise doing your job and that goes for anyone not just Moyes he deserved praise for how he built the football club to a stable PL team who sat outside the European spots most years. But once he got there they just stagnated and quite frankly in his last 5 years how many of them did they perform above which everyone expected? very rarely.

 

It would be like Pardew building us up to the 8th or 7th best team and then getting it every season and expecting praise, i wouldn't be praising him. What Martinez has done this season is well beyond expectations but can he keep it up? I'm not sure but he deserves praise for this season in isolation.

 

But that's just it, just one season and why this comparison is a bit premature. Martinez is still a baby in managerial terms if he builds upon this season then i'll say he would have earnt the reputation he is getting. But i will find it interesting if Martinez gets the same praise using such words as " miracle worker" for simply doing his job, that would be interesting.

[Taylor Swift]

Things change quickly in football. I'll take the guy who was good for ten years and reshaped his squad three times over the guy who bought crap like Boselli and got relegated. Playing decent football or not, Martinez's side was routinely walloped, by the way. Maybe some pragmatism would have helped rather than getting regularly beaten 4 or 5 by Arsenal and Man Utd.

 

[Wullie]

Moyes record is great while Martinez's is mixed? Right the guy basically made Swansea a Premier League club, he also won the FA Cup while year after year managing to keep Wigan in the PL despite having by far the worst squad in the league, he's also taken Everton to it's highest point total ever.

 

Frightening how wrong all this is.

 

How is it wrong? I'm not saying he got them into the PL, I'm saying he set a foundation for the club and took them from League one to a playoff challenger in the Championship. Also there's no way you can't agree they didn't have the worst squad in the league year after year.

 

a) He didn't "basically make them a Premier League club", they had two managers after him.

 

b) He didn't "win the FA Cup while keeping Wigan up"

 

c) It's not Everton's highest ever points total.

 

It was all wrong.

 

Incidentally, if you're going down the route of "Martinez built Swansea even though he didn't have direct influence on promotion", then I'm afraid Moyes completely blows him out the water as far as Everton are concerned.

[Flip]

Yeah but a lot of it was his fault. Bruce is up with another team and is doing better than Martinez ever did with Wigan. The season Hull are having now is better than any season that Martinez had with Wigan.

 

Martinez's record is mixed. He's had a brilliant season with Everton but let's see how he shapes the squad. If he buys s*** players like he did at Wigan then in three years Everton will look like Villa, no offense to Neil.

 

How is Bruce season with Hull anything close to having anything to do with Martinez at Wigan?

 

I do agree that of course he bears some fault for the squad they had, I'm just saying people are extremely harsh and I've said it all along that with a club where there's a structure in place already and where only thing he'd have to care about was to help the team bring in players and manage the team he would succeed.

 

Still don't agree that his record is mixed since he's had some type of success at all of the clubs he's been at until now. Have to remember that he's not been that long into management either and Baines interview the other day about how Martinez believes in his own philosophies rather than how other team plays is refreshing.

[Wullie]

Oh, and the bold part 

 

?

[Ronaldo]

Moyes did a fantastic job in building Everton up from the gutter, but for the last 5 years of his Everton tenure he just did what he was supposed to do.... i.e. get 7th/8th every season.

 

5th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th.

[triggs]

Moyes record is great while Martinez's is mixed? Right the guy basically made Swansea a Premier League club, he also won the FA Cup while year after year managing to keep Wigan in the PL despite having by far the worst squad in the league, he's also taken Everton to it's highest point total ever.

 

Frightening how wrong all this is.

 

How is it wrong? I'm not saying he got them into the PL, I'm saying he set a foundation for the club and took them from League one to a playoff challenger in the Championship. Also there's no way you can't agree they didn't have the worst squad in the league year after year.

 

a) He didn't "basically make them a Premier League club", they had two managers after him.

 

b) He didn't "win the FA Cup while keeping Wigan up"

 

c) It's not Everton's highest ever points total.

 

It was all wrong.

 

Incidentally, if you're going down the route of "Martinez built Swansea even though he didn't have direct influence on promotion", then I'm afraid Moyes completely blows him out the water as far as Everton are concerned.

good post

[littlelunchbox]

I know most of us like to think of our club as a way bigger deal compared to Everton.  But there is absolutely no incentives for Martinez to leave them for us.

[Mole_Toonfan]

My memory is clearly very foggy then, i will accept i was wrong.

 

Still though 2 seasons out of 5 he performed above expectations and the rest he just achieve what was expected, hardly the miracle working job it was described as.

 

During those years anyway.

[Taylor Swift]

The Bruce comparison is relevant because he took over Bruce's team and got it relegated. Bruce still hasn't been relegated, IIRC, and has plenty of promotions.

 

Bruce this season has taken a newly promoted team and is doing better than Martinez did with Wigan last year. I don't know how attractive Wigan are in general but I'm sure it's more attractive than a club like Hull who were playing in a league below last year. Yet this year Hull have come up and played very solid football, won some big games, competed in others and haven't been embarrassed.

 

If I could pick, I'd take Bruce this year over Martinez last year. When you see it that way, you'll understand why Moyes is pretty clearly the one with the longer and more successful record and why Martinez's record is mixed, IMO.

[Wullie]

I know most of us like to think of our club as a way bigger deal compared to Everton.  But there is absolutely no incentives for Martinez to leave them for us.

 

 

Cheers for that. Incidentally I'm not sure we'll be able to buy Messi in the summer either.

[Belfast Mags]

I doubt Martinez will achieve what Moyes did in 10 years time. We need a solid performer Moyes thicks lots of boxes and he is my choice.

 

he already has, he's won the FA Cup with f***ing Wigan and Everton already have their highest ever points total with three games to go

The amount of points doesn't really matter. Well it does if it gets them into the champions league but if they finish 5th it doesn't matter in the slightest.

 

 

Beginning to think you should have changed your username to Trigger tbh 

Seriously though, points make prizes mate, it really is that simple

Just read the next sentence maybe you might be able to understand what I was saying then

 

Well I can't agree with it either I'm afraid. Even if they miss out on 4th spot, they will still have had a good season, winning and drawing more games than any other season that has gone before. Surely that's some sort of progression and a benchmark to aim for and surpass in the future?

 

If you attach points to a cup run, Wigan finished with more points at the end of that competition than the 91 other league clubs.

[Flip]

Moyes record is great while Martinez's is mixed? Right the guy basically made Swansea a Premier League club, he also won the FA Cup while year after year managing to keep Wigan in the PL despite having by far the worst squad in the league, he's also taken Everton to it's highest point total ever.

 

Frightening how wrong all this is.

 

How is it wrong? I'm not saying he got them into the PL, I'm saying he set a foundation for the club and took them from League one to a playoff challenger in the Championship. Also there's no way you can't agree they didn't have the worst squad in the league year after year.

 

a) He didn't "basically make them a Premier League club", they had two managers after him.

 

b) He didn't "win the FA Cup while keeping Wigan up"

 

c) It's not Everton's highest ever points total.

 

It was all wrong.

 

Incidentally, if you're going down the route of "Martinez built Swansea even though he didn't have direct influence on promotion", then I'm afraid Moyes completely blows him out the water as far as Everton are concerned.

 

On the last one I meant in the PL era, I'm not talking about the 40+ games era as that's no fair comparison. Should've made that more clear. Also, you're reading to much it literally on the b), I'm well aware they were relegated the year he won the FA Cup, I was talking about keeping them up for 3 seasons or so. But I get it, you've switched the words around, should've made it more clear, but since it's not my first language sometimes the sentences are built differently.

[Wullie]

Bruce got relegated with Birmingham.

[Taylor Swift]

If it was so difficult for Martinez to keep Wigan up year after year then why is Bruce making such an easy job of it this year without spending loads of money? He did it with Wigan too and also Birmingham.

 

Martinez's record, prior to this year, was actually as impressive as Bruce's, maybe even less so. He's had a brilliant year so far but let's put his career into some perspective and also let's put Moyes' one bad year into perspective given the success he's enjoyed over the last decade.

[triggs]

I doubt Martinez will achieve what Moyes did in 10 years time. We need a solid performer Moyes thicks lots of boxes and he is my choice.

 

he already has, he's won the FA Cup with f***ing Wigan and Everton already have their highest ever points total with three games to go

The amount of points doesn't really matter. Well it does if it gets them into the champions league but if they finish 5th it doesn't matter in the slightest.

 

 

Beginning to think you should have changed your username to Trigger tbh 

Seriously though, points make prizes mate, it really is that simple

Just read the next sentence maybe you might be able to understand what I was saying then

 

Well I can't agree with it either I'm afraid. Even if they miss out on 4th spot, they will still have had a good season, winning and drawing more games than any other season that has gone before. Surely that's some sort of progression and a benchmark to aim for and surpass in the future?

 

If you attach points to a cup run, Wigan finished with more points at the end of that competition than the 91 other league clubs.

Everton have had a very good season. That is without doubt, whether they finish 4th or 6th. Last season Tottenham finished 5th with a record amount of points, nobody cares, their manager got sacked this season. If he had got champions league last season I think he would've been given more time. It matters where you finish, not how many points you get

[Flip]

The Bruce comparison is relevant because he took over Bruce's team and got it relegated. Bruce still hasn't been relegated, IIRC, and has plenty of promotions.

 

Bruce this season has taken a newly promoted team and is doing better than Martinez did with Wigan last year. I don't know how attractive Wigan are in general but I'm sure it's more attractive than a club like Hull who were playing in a league below last year. Yet this year Hull have come up and played very solid football, won some big games, competed in others and haven't been embarrassed.

 

If I could pick, I'd take Bruce this year over Martinez last year. When you see it that way, you'll understand why Moyes is pretty clearly the one with the longer and more successful record and why Martinez's record is mixed, IMO.

 

Alright, still two completely different squads with completely different resources. In any case, Bruce teams style has never appealed to me. He's an okish manager, but I think he's destined for where he is lower half side.

[Taylor Swift]

Bruce got relegated with Birmingham.

 

He got them back up instantly, IIRC.

[SEMTEX]

I know most of us like to think of our club as a way bigger deal compared to Everton.  But there is absolutely no incentives for Martinez to leave them for us.

 

 

Cheers for that. Incidentally I'm not sure we'll be able to buy Messi in the summer either.

 

Fed up of all this negative shit like. Get a grip.

[Flip]

If it was so difficult for Martinez to keep Wigan up year after year then why is Bruce making such an easy job of it this year without spending loads of money? He did it with Wigan too and also Birmingham.

 

 

What are you on about? Not spending loads of money? Haven't they spent for like £25m more than they've sold for this season?

[Wullie]

If it was so difficult for Martinez to keep Wigan up year after year then why is Bruce making such an easy job of it this year without spending loads of money? He did it with Wigan too and also Birmingham.

 

Martinez's record, prior to this year, was actually as impressive as Bruce's, maybe even less so. He's had a brilliant year so far but let's put his career into some perspective and also let's put Moyes' one bad year into perspective given the success he's enjoyed over the last decade.

 

You know this record breaking run of bad form we've had since the turn of the year?

 

Hull have exactly the same points as us in the same period and have only scored two more goals - and most of our goals came against them.

 

He's kept them up, barring any massive shocks, and they're in a cup final, fair play to him and them. But Hull are absolute dross, let's not let having one more point than Aston Villa take away from that.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Wigan had a bunch of experienced cloggers under Bruce, they were hard to break down and could knick results.

 

I'd argue Pardew in that circumstance could do better than 17th like Martinez was, doesn't matter though Martinez is still better.

 

Quite frankly i think Martinez is a much better manager for teams higher up the table he goes and the reason i say that is because he's very tactically astute, a very good coach, very good at developing young players and is a very positive person which translate when his team plays the bigger teams as they always seem to believe they can win.

 

 

[Wullie]

Bruce got relegated with Birmingham.

 

He got them back up instantly, IIRC.

 

I never said he didn't.