Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[Conjo]

6 hours ago, 1878 said:

 

No bitterness because he's doing a puff PR piece to throw his hat in the ring for the Leicester job! 

Doesn't mean he isn't lying through his teeth that he "couldn't change things inside" at Everton because he's a red.

 

He literally came in and won a power battle with the DOF and scrapped most of the medical, scouting and recruitment departments without any replacements lined up for the latter two. He was allowed to change far TOO much in a very short space of time. We had no senior recruitment staff for the January window and his medical people left us in the lurch when he got sacked.

 

Kevin Thelwell seems to have done a good job since the summer of cleaning up his mess, appointing new staff and putting some proper structures back in place.

 

Very easy for Rafa to blame his past on getting sacked, and not the run of 1 win in 14 or the way he conducts himself.

 

I don't see him getting any more Premier League opportunities, because his diminishing returns on the pitch mean he's not worth all the hassle he causes behind the scenes. He should either drop down a level or retire, but his ego would probably struggle with either option. 

 

Mad cause Everton bad.

[HaydnNUFC]

35 minutes ago, Ronaldo said:

You could certainly argue the fans created a lot of negativity prior to and after his appointment. Hardly what the club needed overall.

The Liverpool connection was obviously a factor, so why shouldn’t he mention it?

 

Evertonians knew it would've been a bad appointment and they were proven correct, similarly to how we were with Bruce. However it only got negative inside Goodison Park once the results started to turn and they went on a run of 1 win in 13 matches which included their heaviest home Merseyside derby defeat for years (which was part self inflicted given the way Benitez set up their midfield) and a home defeat where they conceded 5 to Watford who ended up going down on 23 points.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by HaydnNUFC

[Jaqen]

11 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Evertonians knew it would've been a bad appointment and they were proven correct, similarly to how we were with Bruce. However it only got negative inside Goodison Park once the results started to turn and they went on a run of 1 win in 13 matches which included their heaviest home Merseyside derby defeat for years (which was part self inflicted given the way Benitez set up their midfield) and a home defeat where they conceded 5 to Watford who ended up going down on 23 points.

 

 

 

 

His treatment of James and Digne didn't help either, like. Two of their better attacking players forced out isn't going to win the fans or dressing room over. 

[Happinesstan]

People complaining about individual performances is punditry level. He was a master at getting the best out of his squad over a season. He frustrated a lot of pundits by not doing what they all expected and they'd be questioning his decisions, year after year, in the first half of the season. Only for him to prove every one of them for the idiot they were, by the end of the season. Rinse and repeat.

[HaydnNUFC]

38 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

People complaining about individual performances is punditry level. He was a master at getting the best out of his squad over a season. He frustrated a lot of pundits by not doing what they all expected and they'd be questioning his decisions, year after year, in the first half of the season. Only for him to prove every one of them for the idiot they were, by the end of the season. Rinse and repeat.

 

He failed at Everton and was deservedly sacked. He succeeded here in more ones than one. Both can be true. 

 

He was brought in too late to save us from the drop but brought us back up as champions even after being fucked over in January '17. Then kept us up after being starved of major backing by condensing games down to being a game of mistakes due to the quality of player we had to use regularly, especially from August 2017-January 2019. It was laborious to watch at times and we suffered some utterly rank defeats and runs of results, especially at home. Although the 3-4-3 post January 2019 whilst still a counter attacking, low possession side played some canny stuff. Instilled a siege mentality amongst the fans against Ashley and did so brilliantly and the atmosphere it created brought Staveley to the table and made her want to pursue the club for 4 years before finally getting it, albeit 2 years after Benitez' departure. I'll always be grateful to him for that and recognise his part in that and all the other stuff.

 

But he didn't get the best out of Everton. Taking over a side that finished 10th on 59 points the previous season and could've finished in Europe on the final day, he went on a run of 1 win in 13 league matches including some honking home defeats in a derby and to Watford as well as going out of the League Cup to QPR. Ostracised and got rid of their most creative player the previous season in Rodriguez pretty much immediately after his appointment, fell out with Digne and sold him as a result and certain people who he got rid of inside of EFC such as scouts, directors and medical people have still yet to be replaced. Thousands of Everton fans will say he did a shit job and deservedly got the bullet. Given they know far more about the situation than any of us (cc @1878) I'm not going to even attempt to argue otherwise. Especially after speaking to Evertonians and doing a bit of research on why it went so badly wrong.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by HaydnNUFC

[Happinesstan]

9 hours ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

He failed at Everton and was deservedly sacked. He succeeded here in more ones than one. Both can be true. 

 

He was brought in too late to save us from the drop but brought us back up as champions even after being fucked over in January '17. Then kept us up after being starved of major backing by condensing games down to being a game of mistakes due to the quality of player we had to use regularly, especially from August 2017-January 2019. It was laborious to watch at times and we suffered some utterly rank defeats and runs of results, especially at home. Although the 3-4-3 post January 2019 whilst still a counter attacking, low possession side played some canny stuff. Instilled a siege mentality amongst the fans against Ashley and did so brilliantly and the atmosphere it created brought Staveley to the table and made her want to pursue the club for 4 years before finally getting it, albeit 2 years after Benitez' departure. I'll always be grateful to him for that and recognise his part in that and all the other stuff.

 

But he didn't get the best out of Everton. Taking over a side that finished 10th on 59 points the previous season and could've finished in Europe on the final day, he went on a run of 1 win in 13 league matches including some honking home defeats in a derby and to Watford as well as going out of the League Cup to QPR. Ostracised and got rid of their most creative player the previous season in Rodriguez pretty much immediately after his appointment, fell out with Digne and sold him as a result and certain people who he got rid of inside of EFC such as scouts, directors and medical people have still yet to be replaced. Thousands of Everton fans will say he did a shit job and deservedly got the bullet. Given they know far more about the situation than any of us (cc @1878) I'm not going to even attempt to argue otherwise. Especially after speaking to Evertonians and doing a bit of research on why it went so badly wrong.

 

 

 

You're a history student about to do your masters. I expect better than this cherry picked nonsense.

 

He wasn't at Everton for the full season so his ability to get the best "OVER THE SEASON" was never possible.

He built his English reputation with his 6 years at Liverpoool where his early season team selections, performances and results, were constantly ridiculed by the pundits, but he always finished stronger than most, leaving the pundits looking like the mugs we know they are.

 

In your defence you likely didn't experience it for yourself being so damned young, and the embarrassment of bullshit that the pundits spouted, every August, September and October is not something you will encounter while researching his history.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Happinesstan

[Happinesstan]

There is also no way he stays here, beyond the relegation if our fans had treated him like the scum* at Everton.

 

*Not all Everton fans are scum.

[St. Maximin]

33 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

You're a history student about to do your masters. I expect better than this cherry picked nonsense.

 

He wasn't at Everton for the full season so his ability to get the best "OVER THE SEASON" was never possible.

He built his English reputation with his 6 years at Liverpoool where his early season team selections, performances and results, were constantly ridiculed by the pundits, but he always finished stronger than most, leaving the pundits looking like the mugs we know they are.

 

 

 

How is that cherry picked nonsense? I don’t get all the bias towards Rafa here - at times it’s like he’s beyond criticism. The fact he did really well here doesn’t mean criticism wasn’t warranted when he was here, let alone elsewhere, but either way it’s pretty clear from speaking to Everton fans that watched his team a lot more than us that he was a disaster. 
 

Just because things worked out over time here doesn’t mean they would have at Everton. He’d clearly been making mistakes and likely his decisions off the field were contributing to poor form that just got worse and worse until the point sacking seemed the only logical answer if they were to stay up. It’s not like his style was just taking a while to implement. 

[Happinesstan]

23 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

How is that cherry picked nonsense? I don’t get all the bias towards Rafa here - at times it’s like he’s beyond criticism. The fact he did really well here doesn’t mean criticism wasn’t warranted when he was here, let alone elsewhere, but either way it’s pretty clear from speaking to Everton fans that watched his team a lot more than us that he was a disaster. 
 

Just because things worked out over time here doesn’t mean they would have at Everton. He’d clearly been making mistakes and likely his decisions off the field were contributing to poor form that just got worse and worse until the point sacking seemed the only logical answer if they were to stay up. It’s not like his style was just taking a while to implement. 

The whole situation was a disaster, I don't disagree. But it was a predictable disaster. The reason he succeeded in implementing his methods, both here and at Liverpool, was because the fans, in the majority, got behind him and his teams. 

My point had nothing to do with Everton. I was talking about why sometimes our performances weren't exactly entertaining. He's said many a time that winning 3-0,4-0,5-0, doesn't gain you any extra points. What does gain you extra, but immeasurable points, is conserving energy in order to maintain consistent levels for the entirety of the season.

 

The response seemed to suggest that because he fucked up at Everton, those questioning the poor performances are right to say he might have been shite after all.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Happinesstan

[Nine]

1 hour ago, Happinesstan said:

There is also no way he stays here, beyond the relegation if our fans had treated him like the scum* at Everton.

 

*Not all Everton fans are scum.

I’ll agree with you here but again, that’s on Rafa. He was always going to be a poor run away from the fans turning on him there no matter how well he started,  it was a matter of time from the beginning. Just can’t understand why he thought it would work.

[Happinesstan]

He's far from beond criticism. He let players go, that should have stayed, and spent the money on Jacob Murphy. But complaining about getting promoted because sometimes we weren't playing the kind of football we wanted is just ridiculous. 

We secured the championship in the dying minutes of the season. If we scored four more goals in every one of our other victories that doesn't change.

[HaydnNUFC]

1 hour ago, Happinesstan said:

You're a history student about to do your masters. I expect better than this cherry picked nonsense.

 

He wasn't at Everton for the full season so his ability to get the best "OVER THE SEASON" was never possible.

He built his English reputation with his 6 years at Liverpoool where his early season team selections, performances and results, were constantly ridiculed by the pundits, but he always finished stronger than most, leaving the pundits looking like the mugs we know they are.

 

In your defence you likely didn't experience it for yourself being so damned young, and the embarrassment of bullshit that the pundits spouted, every August, September and October is not something you will encounter while researching his history.

 

 

 

 

Is there any need to be such a patronising dick?

 

He did a bad job at Everton and got sacked for it. That's the bottom line.

[Happinesstan]

1 minute ago, Nine said:

I’ll agree with you here but again, that’s on Rafa. He was always going to be a poor run away from the fans turning on him there no matter how well he started,  it was a matter of time from the beginning. Just can’t understand why he thought it would work.

I know. 

Courage is stupidity when you fail.

[Happinesstan]

3 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Is there any need to be such a patronising dick?

 

He did a bad job at Everton and got sacked for it. That's the bottom line.

Yeah. I know. What does it have to do with my comment?

[Coffee_Johnny]

Not sure it’s fair to say Rafa ‘failed and deserved to be sacked’ by Everton. Think it was obviously a risky appointment (both sides) but if you appoint, you have to fully back your manager (particularly one with ‘control’ issues) and give him at least a season. His half season there looked pretty much like the second half of the season under Lampard. 
 

Benetiz: Everton P22 W7 D5 L10

Lampard: Everton P21, W8, D2, L11

 

The above is all comps. In the league, Benetiz picked up 19 points (1 point per game) and Lampard 20 points (1.1 ppg). 
 

Lampard has thus far achieved the same kind of return this season. P7 W1 D4 L2 (1ppg). Though just thinking, if it is still 1ppg by December, he might well get sacked too! 

[HaydnNUFC]

6 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

Yeah. I know. What does it have to do with my comment?

 

So you agree with what what I've been saying the whole time? That he failed at Everton regardless of the previous years/jobs in his career but you decided to be a condescending, ageist arsehole in your reply anyway? Sound.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by HaydnNUFC

[Happinesstan]

2 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

So you agree with what what I've been saying the whole time? That he failed at Everton regardless of the previous years/jobs in his career but you decided to be a condescending, ageist arsehole in your reply anyway? Sound.

 

 

 

I never disagreed. I made no comment about his time at Everton.

[Happinesstan]

48 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

How is that cherry picked nonsense? I don’t get all the bias towards Rafa here - at times it’s like he’s beyond criticism. The fact he did really well here doesn’t mean criticism wasn’t warranted when he was here, let alone elsewhere, but either way it’s pretty clear from speaking to Everton fans that watched his team a lot more than us that he was a disaster. 
 

Just because things worked out over time here doesn’t mean they would have at Everton. He’d clearly been making mistakes and likely his decisions off the field were contributing to poor form that just got worse and worse until the point sacking seemed the only logical answer if they were to stay up. It’s not like his style was just taking a while to implement. 

Because it completely ignores the reputation he built up in the 12 years before he joined us.

[Happinesstan]

There is a very good reason why Rafa was the ideal manager for Staveley.

[HaydnNUFC]

Just now, Happinesstan said:

I never disagreed. I made no comment about his time at Everton.

 

1 hour ago, Happinesstan said:

I expect better than this cherry picked nonsense.

 

He wasn't at Everton for the full season so his ability to get the best "OVER THE SEASON" was never possible.

 

Seems a bit of a disagreement and a comment about his time at Everton to me. If you're on about the earlier post then in the context of the discussion and posts at the time then that seemed to me to be the same.

 

His reputation is irrelevant to the point. That he did a bad job and got sacked for it. Regardless of his previous jobs and successes. 

[Happinesstan]

6 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

 

Seems a bit of a disagreement and a comment about his time at Everton to me. If you're on about the earlier post then in the context of the discussion and posts at the time then that seemed to me to be the same.

 

His reputation is irrelevant to the point. That he did a bad job and got sacked for it. Regardless of his previous jobs and successes. 

In response to your response which offered his time at everton as a counter argument.

My comment was, I suppose, in relation to those using some of his "poorer" performances at NUFC to demonstrate why he failed at Everton. But it was more to tempt people away from rewriting history.

[St. Maximin]

20 minutes ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

Not sure it’s fair to say Rafa ‘failed and deserved to be sacked’ by Everton. Think it was obviously a risky appointment (both sides) but if you appoint, you have to fully back your manager (particularly one with ‘control’ issues) and give him at least a season. His half season there looked pretty much like the second half of the season under Lampard. 
 

Benetiz: Everton P22 W7 D5 L10

Lampard: Everton P21, W8, D2, L11

 

The above is all comps. In the league, Benetiz picked up 19 points (1 point per game) and Lampard 20 points (1.1 ppg). 
 

Lampard has thus far achieved the same kind of return this season. P7 W1 D4 L2 (1ppg). Though just thinking, if it is still 1ppg by December, he might well get sacked too! 

This has been mentioned before but it's a very unfair comparison. Lampard took over a shambles of a team midway through the season, whereas Rafa took over a team at the start of the season that finished midtable the year before. I know people here want to see Lampard fail because he isn't Rafa/left-wing, but it's fair to say he did a better job than Rafa given the context. Time will tell whether he'll do a decent job overall.

[Happinesstan]

Say what you want about the World Wars. Fuck it, I don't recall much about the Falklands, but I experienced Rafa's career in England.

[St. Maximin]

14 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

Because it completely ignores the reputation he built up in the 12 years before he joined us.

It wasn't cleat you weren't referring to Everton, but if you read his post again it's very reasonable. It is absolutely fair to acknowledge the downsides to his approach (we failed to get a shot on target at home to relegated Fulham for example) even if you're going to praise his overall work. We criticise our best players regularly, so fair enough for managers too.

[Happinesstan]

1 minute ago, St. Maximin said:

This has been mentioned before but it's a very unfair comparison. Lampard took over a shambles of a team midway through the season, whereas Rafa took over a team at the start of the season that finished midtable the year before. I know people here want to see Lampard fail because he isn't Rafa/left-wing, but it's fair to say he did a better job than Rafa given the context. Time will tell whether he'll do a decent job overall.

It's an interesting comparison, if only because Lampard has the full support of the fans and the media, he has no reputation or methods, but hey.