Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[HaydnNUFC]

1 hour ago, Happinesstan said:

You're a history student about to do your masters. I expect better than this cherry picked nonsense.

 

He wasn't at Everton for the full season so his ability to get the best "OVER THE SEASON" was never possible.

He built his English reputation with his 6 years at Liverpoool where his early season team selections, performances and results, were constantly ridiculed by the pundits, but he always finished stronger than most, leaving the pundits looking like the mugs we know they are.

 

In your defence you likely didn't experience it for yourself being so damned young, and the embarrassment of bullshit that the pundits spouted, every August, September and October is not something you will encounter while researching his history.

 

 

 

 

Is there any need to be such a patronising dick?

 

He did a bad job at Everton and got sacked for it. That's the bottom line.

[Happinesstan]

1 minute ago, Nine said:

I’ll agree with you here but again, that’s on Rafa. He was always going to be a poor run away from the fans turning on him there no matter how well he started,  it was a matter of time from the beginning. Just can’t understand why he thought it would work.

I know. 

Courage is stupidity when you fail.

[Happinesstan]

3 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Is there any need to be such a patronising dick?

 

He did a bad job at Everton and got sacked for it. That's the bottom line.

Yeah. I know. What does it have to do with my comment?

[Coffee_Johnny]

Not sure it’s fair to say Rafa ‘failed and deserved to be sacked’ by Everton. Think it was obviously a risky appointment (both sides) but if you appoint, you have to fully back your manager (particularly one with ‘control’ issues) and give him at least a season. His half season there looked pretty much like the second half of the season under Lampard. 
 

Benetiz: Everton P22 W7 D5 L10

Lampard: Everton P21, W8, D2, L11

 

The above is all comps. In the league, Benetiz picked up 19 points (1 point per game) and Lampard 20 points (1.1 ppg). 
 

Lampard has thus far achieved the same kind of return this season. P7 W1 D4 L2 (1ppg). Though just thinking, if it is still 1ppg by December, he might well get sacked too! 

[HaydnNUFC]

6 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

Yeah. I know. What does it have to do with my comment?

 

So you agree with what what I've been saying the whole time? That he failed at Everton regardless of the previous years/jobs in his career but you decided to be a condescending, ageist arsehole in your reply anyway? Sound.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by HaydnNUFC

[Happinesstan]

2 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

So you agree with what what I've been saying the whole time? That he failed at Everton regardless of the previous years/jobs in his career but you decided to be a condescending, ageist arsehole in your reply anyway? Sound.

 

 

 

I never disagreed. I made no comment about his time at Everton.

[Happinesstan]

48 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

How is that cherry picked nonsense? I don’t get all the bias towards Rafa here - at times it’s like he’s beyond criticism. The fact he did really well here doesn’t mean criticism wasn’t warranted when he was here, let alone elsewhere, but either way it’s pretty clear from speaking to Everton fans that watched his team a lot more than us that he was a disaster. 
 

Just because things worked out over time here doesn’t mean they would have at Everton. He’d clearly been making mistakes and likely his decisions off the field were contributing to poor form that just got worse and worse until the point sacking seemed the only logical answer if they were to stay up. It’s not like his style was just taking a while to implement. 

Because it completely ignores the reputation he built up in the 12 years before he joined us.

[Happinesstan]

There is a very good reason why Rafa was the ideal manager for Staveley.

[HaydnNUFC]

Just now, Happinesstan said:

I never disagreed. I made no comment about his time at Everton.

 

1 hour ago, Happinesstan said:

I expect better than this cherry picked nonsense.

 

He wasn't at Everton for the full season so his ability to get the best "OVER THE SEASON" was never possible.

 

Seems a bit of a disagreement and a comment about his time at Everton to me. If you're on about the earlier post then in the context of the discussion and posts at the time then that seemed to me to be the same.

 

His reputation is irrelevant to the point. That he did a bad job and got sacked for it. Regardless of his previous jobs and successes. 

[Happinesstan]

6 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

 

Seems a bit of a disagreement and a comment about his time at Everton to me. If you're on about the earlier post then in the context of the discussion and posts at the time then that seemed to me to be the same.

 

His reputation is irrelevant to the point. That he did a bad job and got sacked for it. Regardless of his previous jobs and successes. 

In response to your response which offered his time at everton as a counter argument.

My comment was, I suppose, in relation to those using some of his "poorer" performances at NUFC to demonstrate why he failed at Everton. But it was more to tempt people away from rewriting history.

[St. Maximin]

20 minutes ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

Not sure it’s fair to say Rafa ‘failed and deserved to be sacked’ by Everton. Think it was obviously a risky appointment (both sides) but if you appoint, you have to fully back your manager (particularly one with ‘control’ issues) and give him at least a season. His half season there looked pretty much like the second half of the season under Lampard. 
 

Benetiz: Everton P22 W7 D5 L10

Lampard: Everton P21, W8, D2, L11

 

The above is all comps. In the league, Benetiz picked up 19 points (1 point per game) and Lampard 20 points (1.1 ppg). 
 

Lampard has thus far achieved the same kind of return this season. P7 W1 D4 L2 (1ppg). Though just thinking, if it is still 1ppg by December, he might well get sacked too! 

This has been mentioned before but it's a very unfair comparison. Lampard took over a shambles of a team midway through the season, whereas Rafa took over a team at the start of the season that finished midtable the year before. I know people here want to see Lampard fail because he isn't Rafa/left-wing, but it's fair to say he did a better job than Rafa given the context. Time will tell whether he'll do a decent job overall.

[Happinesstan]

Say what you want about the World Wars. Fuck it, I don't recall much about the Falklands, but I experienced Rafa's career in England.

[St. Maximin]

14 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

Because it completely ignores the reputation he built up in the 12 years before he joined us.

It wasn't cleat you weren't referring to Everton, but if you read his post again it's very reasonable. It is absolutely fair to acknowledge the downsides to his approach (we failed to get a shot on target at home to relegated Fulham for example) even if you're going to praise his overall work. We criticise our best players regularly, so fair enough for managers too.

[Happinesstan]

1 minute ago, St. Maximin said:

This has been mentioned before but it's a very unfair comparison. Lampard took over a shambles of a team midway through the season, whereas Rafa took over a team at the start of the season that finished midtable the year before. I know people here want to see Lampard fail because he isn't Rafa/left-wing, but it's fair to say he did a better job than Rafa given the context. Time will tell whether he'll do a decent job overall.

It's an interesting comparison, if only because Lampard has the full support of the fans and the media, he has no reputation or methods, but hey.

[Happinesstan]

Just now, St. Maximin said:

It wasn't cleat you weren't referring to Everton, but if you read his post again it's very reasonable. It is absolutely fair to acknowledge the downsides to his approach (we failed to get a shot on target at home to relegated Fulham for example) even if you're going to praise his overall work. We criticise our best players regularly, so fair enough for managers too.

It's a well written post, but it is an attempt to define him based on the last 5 years in a career lasting over 30. 

His teams and performances are questioned every year, without fail, despite the fact that every year he is vindicated.

We won the Championship in the dying moments of the season. Pushing for an extra goal against Burton Albion, might have ended that. It might not of course, but imagine if it did.

[HaydnNUFC]

Just now, Happinesstan said:

It's a well written post, but it is an attempt to define him based on the last 5 years in a career lasting over 30.

 

No, it wasn't.

[Happinesstan]

Just now, Happinesstan said:

It's a well written post, but it is an attempt to define him based on the last 5 years in a career lasting over 30. 

His teams and performances are questioned every year, without fail, despite the fact that every year he is vindicated.

We won the Championship in the dying moments of the season. Pushing for an extra goal against Burton Albion, might have ended that. It might not of course, but imagine if it did.

Imagine if we'd gone in search of a second, they broke and equalised. Imagine Rafa came out and blamed fan expectation.

[Happinesstan]

1 minute ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

No, it wasn't.

Well in the context of the meaning to my post it certainly seemed like it.

But mate, it was all in good faith. My "patronising" response was more of a dig at those who are responsible for the writing of football history. They're pretty much the same people that wrote Rafa off every year, so I did acknowledge that you are unlikely to read about that aspect of Rafa's history.

But anybody who lived through those years will tell you the truth.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Happinesstan

[HaydnNUFC]

Just now, Happinesstan said:

Well in the context of the meaning to my post it certainly seemed like it.

 

Given the context of the posts and discussion at the time I thought you were partaking in the chat regards to him failing at Everton. If you weren't then ah well.

[Happinesstan]

5 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Given the context of the posts and discussion at the time I thought you were partaking in the chat regards to him failing at Everton. If you weren't then ah well.

I've already made that clear but 'll do so again. I was commenting on those using Rafa's "poorer" performances at NUFC to question his methods in relation to his failure at Everton. The fact that his methods were successful here can not be used to explain why they failed elsewhere.

 

I deliberately exclude Everton from my post, so as to separate the two.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Happinesstan

[Coffee_Johnny]

54 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

This has been mentioned before but it's a very unfair comparison. Lampard took over a shambles of a team midway through the season, whereas Rafa took over a team at the start of the season that finished midtable the year before. I know people here want to see Lampard fail because he isn't Rafa/left-wing, but it's fair to say he did a better job than Rafa given the context. Time will tell whether he'll do a decent job overall.

Not sure it is fair to say he did a better job than Rafa, the numbers so far this season don’t support it either. Last season, there was certainly not the kind of new manager bounce you would expect, based on the theory that Rafa was in some way a toxic influence at least.
 

Personally, I don’t want to see Lampard fail. In fact, and I may be in the minority here, but I have a soft spot for Everton. Know the area reasonably well and in some ways it reminds me of where I grew-up. Similar people, similar struggles. I do, however, think he will fail. Hope I’m wrong. 

[St. Maximin]

1 hour ago, Happinesstan said:

It's an interesting comparison, if only because Lampard has the full support of the fans and the media, he has no reputation or methods, but hey.

Not saying these things don't have an impact, but the reality is clearly far less black and white then one manager gaining full support and the other not. The general trend with football fans remains the same across the club - they will turn on you when you've annoyed them.

[St. Maximin]

1 hour ago, Happinesstan said:

It's a well written post, but it is an attempt to define him based on the last 5 years in a career lasting over 30. 

His teams and performances are questioned every year, without fail, despite the fact that every year he is vindicated.

We won the Championship in the dying moments of the season. Pushing for an extra goal against Burton Albion, might have ended that. It might not of course, but imagine if it did.

Maybe so, but I doubt he also planned Brighton to get complacent after gaining promotion and Grealish to score a late equaliser. We won the league fair and square, so he has to get credit for that, but it wasn't a smooth ride.

[St. Maximin]

39 minutes ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

Not sure it is fair to say he did a better job than Rafa, the numbers so far this season don’t support it either. Last season, there was certainly not the kind of new manager bounce you would expect, based on the theory that Rafa was in some way a toxic influence at least.
 

Personally, I don’t want to see Lampard fail. In fact, and I may be in the minority here, but I have a soft spot for Everton. Know the area reasonably well and in some ways it reminds me of where I grew-up. Similar people, similar struggles. I do, however, think he will fail. Hope I’m wrong. 

Not assuming you would mate . He isn't popular here though. Speaking to Everton fans I play cricket with though, they seemed happy enough with how the team had performed since he came in and that he'd need longer to be judged. Perhaps not a new manager bounce, but the performances improved and they picked up form towards the end that kept them safe.

[Away Toon]

I'm pretty sure that Rafa is finished as a top manager and won't be getting offered anything outside of someone who is desperate not to get relegated or desperate to get promoted. The new firefighting Sam Allardyce.