Sean Longstaff

[Elbel1]

On 03/11/2024 at 09:48, Guybrush said:

 

This is atrocious. At the risk of sounding like a bullying advert, people need to realise they're directing criticism at a real person.

 

Hate owt like this, me.

Fully agree unless the criticism is directed at Steve Bruce.

Starting to think I'm still not fully over his reign of terror.

[RodneyCisse]

39 minutes ago, PopeandGlory said:

Personally think it’s absolutely bonkers that people are seriously suggesting Longstaff should start ahead of Tonali, in any match, because he’s perceived to have an “engine”.

 

Makes as much sense as selling Isak and buying Delap because he would “put himself about”.

 

Might as well sell Bruno and get Oliver Skipp in too.

Id love Delap tbh, but as a second striker.

[TRon]

54 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Not to push the negative angle but he’s below average among PL midfielders in almost everything and he’s dire on anything related to passing. 
 

His movement is decent as you can see by those runs he makes into the channels, even if it rarely results in anything. 
 

He’s decent at blocks and OK at tackles. I can’t find stats on running but I don’t see him as particularly fast or athletic, so I doubt his ground coverage is better than Tonali. He does pop up to recover the ball from time to time, but mostly when somebody else has made the meaningful challenge or recovery.
 

He is just a CM though, so not everything can be captured with stats. 

 

FWIW I think his ability is probably decent and his intelligence is good. I just don’t see any convincing argument that he’s key to us having a better team.

 

 

 

 

 

I think the acid test of this is, which of the teams do you think he would fit into if he left Newcastle?

 

A. Arsenal/Man City/ Liverpool

 

or

 

B. Bournemouth/Brentford/Everton

 

 

 

[STM]

45 minutes ago, PopeandGlory said:

Personally think it’s absolutely bonkers that people are seriously suggesting Longstaff should start ahead of Tonali, in any match, because he’s perceived to have an “engine”.

 

Makes as much sense as selling Isak and buying Delap because he would “put himself about”.

 

Might as well sell Bruno and get Oliver Skipp in too.

 

That's a good story but nobody thinks he should play just because of an engine.

 

He should play because he does the job that the team needs. 

 

I'm absolutely for Tonali playing ahead of Longstaff, provided that the team performs well with him there. 

[timeEd32]

Some Longstaff vs. Tonali stats (all per 90) that I think highlight how different they are. I was going to exclude cup games, but Tonali played as a 6 v Chelsea and Longstaff was a 6 for Wimbledon so seems fine to leave in to get a bigger sample. It doesn't change much anyway.

• Longstaff is first on the team in tackles won with 2.03 per 90 (Joelinton is second at 1.54). Tonali is 9th (1.00)
  • Longstaff's tackles are distributed evenly - 30% in the defensive third, 40% in the middle, 30% in the attacking third
  • 89% of Tonali's tackles have occurred in the middle third. He has one in the defensive third and none in the attacking third.
• Longstaff is second in total blocks and first in blocked passes. Tonali is 11th (comparable to Bruno).
• Tonali is first in interceptions. Longstaff is 4th just ahead of Bruno and Joelinton.
• As a result Longstaff is first in tackles won + interceptions and Tonali is second (Bruno third).
• Tonali averages a few more touches per game, but very similar overall. Longstaff has more in the defensive third, while Tonali has more in the middle and attacking third.
• Tonali is 4th in attempted take-ons. He hasn't been very good at them (only 30% success; Bruno 70% for comparison), but Longstaff has only attempted one, which is less than every player who has played as much as him except Pope and Burn.
• Tonali has been dispossessed less than any other midfielder/forward, but Longstaff fares well in this area also. Our other midfielders - Bruno, Joelinton, and Willock - have been dispossessed the most.
• Tonali is third in fouls drawn behind Bruno and Gordon; Longstaff is 13th.
• Tonali is second in loose balls recovered (Tino is first). Longstaff is 9th. 

You'd think they have two entirely different positions / roles.

[STM]

2 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

 

I think the acid test of this is, which of the teams do you think he would fit into if he left Newcastle?

 

A. Arsenal/Man City/ Liverpool

 

or

 

B. Bournemouth/Brentford/Everton

 

 

 

 

Sounds like a good arguement but Willock and Tonali don't get into any of them top teams either.

 

Its pointless concocting little hypotheticals to prove why we all should hate Longstaff, especially since nobody is saying he's a great player and more that he doesn't deserve the sheer unjustified shite he gets during match's.

 

We should upgrade Longstaff but we still haven't. If Tonali comes into the starting 11 and completely out- performs Longstaff, great, but it hasn't happened yet and I don't think he will because I'm not sure that's where Tonali should be playing.

[STM]

5 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

Some Longstaff vs. Tonali stats (all per 90) that I think highlight how different they are. I was going to exclude cup games, but Tonali played as a 6 v Chelsea and Longstaff was a 6 for Wimbledon so seems fine to leave in to get a bigger sample. It doesn't change much anyway.

• Longstaff is first on the team in tackles won with 2.03 per 90 (Joelinton is second at 1.54). Tonali is 9th (1.00)
  • Longstaff's tackles are distributed evenly - 30% in the defensive third, 40% in the middle, 30% in the attacking third
  • 89% of Tonali's tackles have occurred in the middle third. He has one in the defensive third and none in the attacking third.
• Longstaff is second in total blocks and first in blocked passes. Tonali is 11th (comparable to Bruno).
• Tonali is first in interceptions. Longstaff is 4th just ahead of Bruno and Joelinton.
• As a result Longstaff is first in tackles won + interceptions and Tonali is second (Bruno third).
• Tonali averages a few more touches per game, but very similar overall. Longstaff has more in the defensive third, while Tonali has more in the middle and attacking third.
• Tonali is 4th in attempted take-ons. He hasn't been very good at them (only 30% success; Bruno 70% for comparison), but Longstaff has only attempted one, which is less than every player who has played as much as him except Pope and Burn.
• Tonali has been dispossessed less than any other midfielder/forward, but Longstaff fares well in this area also. Our other midfielders - Bruno, Joelinton, and Willock - have been dispossessed the most.
• Tonali is third in fouls drawn behind Bruno and Gordon; Longstaff is 13th.
• Tonali is second in loose balls recovered (Tino is first). Longstaff is 9th. 

You'd think they have two entirely different positions / roles.

 

This is an excellent post. It highlights that basically Longstaff plays more conservative and it benefits the team. Which comes back to the balance arguement.

[PopeandGlory]

27 minutes ago, STM said:

 

That's a good story but nobody thinks he should play just because of an engine.

 

He should play because he does the job that the team needs. 

 

I'm absolutely for Tonali playing ahead of Longstaff, provided that the team performs well with him there. 

 

What job does Longstaff do that the team needs that Tonali hasn’t or couldn’t?

 

I’m not sure the above stats show too much difference other than Tonali is miles better with the ball as they are instructed to play in different ways by Howe.

 

If you asked Tonali to play more defensively, I’m not sure you’d see that much difference in those defensive stats.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by PopeandGlory

[PopeandGlory]

23 minutes ago, STM said:

 

This is an excellent post. It highlights that basically Longstaff plays more conservative and it benefits the team. Which comes back to the balance arguement.

 

Does it truly benefit the team? Last season we were dreadful defensively and Longstaff was a major factor in that.

 

If we’re using a sample size of 6 games to say Longstaff contributes more, why are we ignoring the rest of his career that suggests he’s a very average bottom half PL player who has the occasional purple patch or game in him.

[TRon]

38 minutes ago, STM said:

 

Sounds like a good arguement but Willock and Tonali don't get into any of them top teams either.

 

Its pointless concocting little hypotheticals to prove why we all should hate Longstaff, especially since nobody is saying he's a great player and more that he doesn't deserve the sheer unjustified shite he gets during match's.

 

We should upgrade Longstaff but we still haven't. If Tonali comes into the starting 11 and completely out- performs Longstaff, great, but it hasn't happened yet and I don't think he will because I'm not sure that's where Tonali should be playing.

 

Willock isn't really good enough either and I'm a fan. Tonali I think is an excellent player, the question is if he fits into our team, or the PL as a whole. I think if he leaves he finds a CL club, probably back in Italy. These are very broad generalisations but it's just about where we want to be at the end of the day and which players will ultimately be there. Longstaff might well have a place as a squad player, just don't see him starting in a top 4 side regularly.

[et tu brute]

5 hours ago, STM said:

 

You accept it would be mental for him not to start the next game though right?

 

You also accept that we are clearly a better side when he's involved?

Don't accept that as to me, playing Tonali in Longstaff's position and Bruno further forward would make us a lot better and give more creativity. As for the first part, everyone was saying it would be mental not to start Tonali after the Chelsea game. I think a lot of people forget how poor Longstaff has been in a lot of games. End of the day it's the manager's decision and he will be judged on everything at the end of the season. 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by et tu brute

[et tu brute]

9 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

Willock isn't really good enough either and I'm a fan. Tonali I think is an excellent player, the question is if he fits into our team, or the PL as a whole. I think if he leaves he finds a CL club, probably back in Italy. These are very broad generalisations but it's just about where we want to be at the end of the day and which players will ultimately be there. Longstaff might well have a place as a squad player, just don't see him starting in a top 4 side regularly.

He wouldn't even get near their squads never mind the first team. 

[JEToon]

3 hours ago, TRon said:

 

Willock isn't really good enough either and I'm a fan. Tonali I think is an excellent player, the question is if he fits into our team, or the PL as a whole. I think if he leaves he finds a CL club, probably back in Italy. These are very broad generalisations but it's just about where we want to be at the end of the day and which players will ultimately be there. Longstaff might well have a place as a squad player, just don't see him starting in a top 4 side regularly.

He already has regularly started for a side who made the top 4
 

Where we want to eventually be will always be a side in need of squad players who serve different tactical functions. 

 

Man City have the likes of Nunes 

Liverpool Curtis Jones 

Villa have McGinn 

We played Chelsea last week featuring Dewsbury Hall. 
 

These are all good at what they do but by no means great players, they’d do well to regularly start for us to flip the argument slightly. 

 

Even sides who make the top 4 have players they don’t start often, they have squads. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by JEToon

[nufcjmc]

He's not always right but for those who are pro longstaff i guess this adds to the for or for those who think what the fuck covers what Eddie may see in him.

 

https://youtu.be/fjv8n_en77U?si=iE3Wv1SLpwhadKTN

 

The "love in" starts at 6m22s

 

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by nufcjmc

[STM]

14 minutes ago, nufcjmc said:

He's not always right but for those who are pro longstaff i guess this adds to the for or for those who think what the fuck covers what Eddie may see in him.

 

https://youtu.be/fjv8n_en77U?si=iE3Wv1SLpwhadKTN

 

The "love in" starts at 6m22s

 

 

 

 

Gets it spot on IMO. Basically Longstaff is very good at following instructions, very disciplined tactically and does dozens of small but important things during games that may not be picked up on.

 

When people say "what can he possible do that x player can't do?" perhaps it's this stuff? 

 

 

[LionOfGosforth]

Just now, STM said:

 

Gets it spot on IMO. Basically Longstaff is very good at following instructions, very disciplined tactically and does dozens of small but important things during games that may not be picked up on.

 

When people say "what can he possible do that x player can't do?" perhaps it's this stuff? 

 

 

 

Watched that earlier. Good stuff. Depends on how you feel about the player, this won't change the minds of those that dislike him but it definitely is the details that makes him important to this team and how he functions in it.

[SUPERTOON]

25 minutes ago, JEToon said:

He already has regularly started for a side who made the top 4
 

Where we want to eventually be will always be a side in need of squad players who serve different tactical functions. 

 

Man City have the likes of Nunes 

Liverpool Curtis Jones 

Villa have McGinn 

We played Chelsea last week featuring Dewsbury Hall. 
 

These are all good at what they do but by no means great players, they’d do well to regularly start for us to flip the argument slightly. 

 

Even sides who make the top 4 have players they don’t start often, they have squads. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nunes has been a flop at City though, Dewsbury Hall only plays the lesser games for Chelsea. 
 

McGinn is one of Villas most important players as well.

[STM]

Just now, LionOfGosforth said:

 

Watched that earlier. Good stuff. Depends on how you feel about the player, this won't change the minds of those that dislike him but it definitely is the details that makes him important to this team and how he functions in it.

 

Yep. It also doesn't have to be a point of contention. 

 

It's OK that he's only good at the boring, nitty gritty, shite sides of the game but also that's he's very good at those bits... whilst also saying that there's loads in his game that aren't good enough for a consistently top side.

[STM]

Darren Fletcher is a better example. 

 

Darren Fletcher was fairly average at everything he did but was often included in Man United sides that were surrounded in star quality. You'd have Rooney, Ronaldo, Scholes, Carrick and then Darren Fletcher. 

[JEToon]

2 minutes ago, SUPERTOON said:

Nunes has been a flop at City though, Dewsbury Hall only plays the lesser games for Chelsea. 
 

McGinn is one of Villas most important players as well.

100% correct on the first two, that’s my point. The notion the top sides are simply stacked with absurdly talented players top to bottom who play every week isn’t entirely correct

 

I say this as someone Scottish, who’s followed most of McGinns career, he’s by no means a fantastic player, he’d very quickly have a lot of the same critique aimed Longstaffs way if he played for us, he’s nothing like a technically great player. He’s a grafter who will work harder than most on the park, and there is nothing wrong with that. 

[LionOfGosforth]

10 minutes ago, STM said:

 

Yep. It also doesn't have to be a point of contention. 

 

It's OK that he's only good at the boring, nitty gritty, shite sides of the game but also that's he's very good at those bits... whilst also saying that there's loads in his game that aren't good enough for a consistently top side.

 

I genuinely wonder if the analysis would be something Eddie would nod sagely at in private and smile coyly. It's incredibly intricate and smart tactically to have a midfielder make those sorts of movements at specific times of games in specific parts of the field to trick specific players and allow space for certain passing patterns. And there are plenty on here that say he's not tactically well-versed. Howay man

 

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by LionOfGosforth

[nufcjmc]

14 minutes ago, LionOfGosforth said:

 

Watched that earlier. Good stuff. Depends on how you feel about the player, this won't change the minds of those that dislike him but it definitely is the details that makes him important to this team and how he functions in it.

I am in the longstaff little minutes as possible and out of the pile of midfield players he would be the first to sell. 

 

I do appreciate though that howe doesn't do this to be controversial or piss supporters off and does see qualities in him  

 

The thing that makes it a circular argument is that right he's been here for the full 3 years of Eddie's tenure and therefore knows what he needs to do it still comes back to is he the only one that can? Could Miley given the time and repeated selection do all this and more or more importantly the 50+m tonali.

 

For me those against longstaff being a regular in the first 11 the main crux is that they don't believe he has a special unique skillset that can't be coached into others who have a higher skill level. 

 

I guess you may agree with that but in the short term believe he's making the immediate impact so deserves the reward of keeping his place. 

 

Hence why I believe it's a circular argument as its not like there is a definitive answer especially while longstaff and tonali this season alone both haven't made themselves undropable 

[LionOfGosforth]

9 minutes ago, nufcjmc said:

I am in the longstaff little minutes as possible and out of the pile of midfield players he would be the first to sell. 

 

I do appreciate though that howe doesn't do this to be controversial or piss supporters off and does see qualities in him  

 

The thing that makes it a circular argument is that right he's been here for the full 3 years of Eddie's tenure and therefore knows what he needs to do it still comes back to is he the only one that can? Could Miley given the time and repeated selection do all this and more or more importantly the 50+m tonali.

 

For me those against longstaff being a regular in the first 11 the main crux is that they don't believe he has a special unique skillset that can't be coached into others who have a higher skill level. 

 

I guess you may agree with that but in the short term believe he's making the immediate impact so deserves the reward of keeping his place. 

 

Hence why I believe it's a circular argument as its not like there is a definitive answer especially while longstaff and tonali this season alone both haven't made themselves undropable 

 

This may be true but i've yet to see us function any better under EH than we did in the 22/23 season when Longstaff played much of it. I see the arguments against him and they usually revolve around how he is on the ball. His skills and vision on the ball are basic. He doesn't shoot well, doesn't create very much. Off the ball, he clearly brings things that EH doesn't trust others to deliver (yet). Whether the critics of him will see those qualities and agree it justifies his inclusion, I tend to doubt.

[nufcjmc]

8 minutes ago, LionOfGosforth said:

 

This may be true but i've yet to see us function any better under EH than we did in the 22/23 season when Longstaff played much of it. I see the arguments against him and they usually revolve around how he is on the ball. His skills and vision on the ball are basic. He doesn't shoot well, doesn't create very much. Off the ball, he clearly brings things that EH doesn't trust others to deliver (yet). Whether the critics of him will see those qualities and agree it justifies his inclusion, I tend to doubt.

Well again I am camp out so you know I instantly want to say that well yes he was vital to the team in his purple season similarly to miggy but as the team develops and evolves he is the easiest on the eye or at first glance to see as the weakest of the midfield players to go if you had to sell a midfield player now for whatever reason. 

 

I don't know the internal workings of the squad etc but seen as 1. They allowed his contract to run down and 2. Sandro was signed we clearly in my eyes looked to move on from him. 

 

Now again circular argument again it hasn't worked out that way, Eddie likes him and looks to offer a new contract and even if I love sandro with the ban and the way the squad has been functioning this season sandro hasn't made the place his automatically. Howe may argue he isn't looking for a basic stand in and wants true competition in each position but then puts you right back to the debate of well is Sean good enough to be that. 

[PopeandGlory]

He’s being kept around because he’s English/homegrown, cheap and can follow instructions, although with very limited execution most of the time.

 

I can just about cope with that. I wouldn’t object to him coming on for the last 10-15 minutes to see out a game or give players like Tonali a rest. 

 

Howe has just had a full season to work with Tonali. If people are suggesting he still can’t follow instructions as well as Longstaff, there is something terribly amiss with our star signing or coaching methods.

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by PopeandGlory