Joelinton: will not play against Everton (Howe)

[TRon]

cringe worthy stuff.

 

Your last post about him was pretty cringeworthy. It definitely can't be cringeworthy to suggest he's not worth £40 million, unless you are off your rocker.

 

What is it about him that impresses you so much?

 

And also, why do you take any criticism of him so personally?

 

I think it's the other way round, some of the hate mob take it too personally. I was actually taken aback at the abuse he was getting on the match thread considering it was a game where there was some absolutely shocking football being played regardless of his performance.

[Sean]

cringe worthy stuff.

 

Your last post about him was pretty cringeworthy. It definitely can't be cringeworthy to suggest he's not worth £40 million, unless you are off your rocker.

 

What is it about him that impresses you so much?

 

And also, why do you take any criticism of him so personally?

 

I think it's the other way round, some of the hate mob take it too personally. I was actually taken aback at the abuse he was getting on the match thread considering it was a game where there was some absolutely shocking football being played regardless of his performance.

 

That may be fair enough, I haven't seen the posts and haven't been posting about him during matches.

 

 

[KaKa]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't throw him on the rubbish heap just yet, as our brilliant manager clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

 

You folks were the same ones that were ridiculing Almiron not too long ago, and now you all love him.

 

Ahem, I never rubbished Almiron as his quality is obvious to anyone.

 

He was also bought by a manager for a specific reason, to fit into a team and was scouted extensively (and opinions from people that knew him sought).

 

This clown was bought by Ashley to calm the masses as an expensive signing. Not really for footballing reasons.

 

There is no comparison between the 2.

 

All I know is a lot of people were on Almiron's back when he was initially being played in a position he was not as accustomed to.

 

He was moved, his performances improved and now he is one of the favourites in the team.

 

Joelinton was not bought as an expensive signing to calm the masses, that is ridiculous. MA does not care about the masses at all.

 

MA wanted him because he has asked the scouting team to identify younger players with potentially large re-sale values. This has been what he continually pushes for, it was the same with all of the French talent we kept bringing in, or Mitrovic etc etc.

 

The scouting team had very high marks for Joelinton regarding this remit, and MA wanted him brought to the club.

[Rod]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't throw him on the rubbish heap just yet, as our brilliant manager clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

 

You folks were the same ones that were ridiculing Almiron not too long ago, and now you all love him.

I sussed Joelinton out after approximately six games.  Pathetic was the word I used.  If you can't see that then I can only assume that you are being argumentative for argumentative sake.  The bloke is useless, honest.

[geordie john]

 

There are two massive issues surrounding Joelinton:

 

1. His massive transfer fee

2. His footballing ability.

 

1. I am pretty certain that we all think his transfer fee (even before he signed for us) was mega inflated. Rafa himself said 'no' and that he was not worth even £20m. It seems bizarre that Ashley, who notoriously spends as little as he can, would break the bank on a relatively unknown and unproven goal scorer. Did he honestly believe that Joelinton would come in, take the premiership by storm, score 25 goals and then go to Real Madrid for £80m? Not a chance in hell. I am firmly of the belief, as are many others, that this deal was crooked and that £40m did not change hands. But, of course, we can't prove it.

 

2. The people who defend him and say he should be given a chance are partly right. He did well enough in his last season in Germany, but with a vastly respected, innovative and intelligent coach, and a very good team set up. We have none of those things. Playing him week after week, in the same team formation, with the same tactics (tactics?) is just making the same mistake time after time in the hope that it will cure itself by accident. It doesn't work like that.

 

I have seen nothing, not one iota, of ability, skill, strikers awareness, aggression and hunger for goals that any good striker needs. Just by being on the pitch gives him, mathematically, a chance to score 5 or so goals in a season. Joelinton hasn't even managed that.

 

Solution:

1. Stick with him, change the manager, system and tactics. Ain't going to happen.

2. Send him back to Germany on loan to see if he can rekindle an ounce of his previous touch, and hope that we get an offer that minimises the loss to around £20m.

 

With Bruce as our manager (weeps tears just typing it) I really don't see the point of persevering with him in the magical and groundless hope that he will suddenly turn into a striker.

 

[KaKa]

Good post, and I agree. Think he has to be found another club pronto, because under Bruce it's looking like things are going to get only worse for him.

 

He's just going to get put upfront alone in weakened teams in the cup games, and that is not going to do anything to improve his situation at all.

 

Your statement regarding Rafa saying he wasn't worth £20 million is wrong by the way. Rafa thought a fee of £20 million was his value rather than £40 million.

 

Ashley revealed: ‘We delivered Rafa’s number one target in January, Miguel Almiron, but Hoffenheim wouldn’t sell Joelinton. Then in February they said we could get him early, but it would cost £40m. He was a name we had discussed with Rafa, and our recruitment people had him top of their list. I thought it was one of those that would keep drifting away, but no, we had it done.

 

‘I was so excited to tell Rafa we’ve got another one coming, but when Lee Charnley, our managing director, had the conversation, his view was that he didn’t want to commit to the transfer until he knew what his position was with the club next season. And I didn’t get that. Is this the bloke who had given it to me for the last 12 months?

 

‘Proper given me bucketfuls – which I may or may not deserve, but I don’t deserve it on this one, because I’ve done it. I’ve got his first choice, Almiron, and this other player who was so exciting we thought he’d be out of our range. When we first sat down with Rafa, we didn’t think we would pay this much for a player. We’d never done that before.

 

‘From there, the relationship deteriorated very quickly. I was personally very disappointed, and that’s putting it politely. I was freaked out. I’m thinking, “I clearly don’t understand anything about football” because I’m all for celebrating and going mad and suddenly it’s, “No – you’ve got to sort my deal out first.” So we had another few weeks of correspondence and then it wasn’t just his deal, it was that he thought the £40m for Joelinton wasn’t worth it. It’s too much and the club shouldn’t spend it.

 

‘And very occasionally, I get to be me in this world. So here’s the deal. I’ll pay £20m of it personally. Nothing to do with the club. Above and beyond the budget. Rafa valued him at £20m. So that’s what would come out of the club budget. The rest, £23m – I’ll pay. And he still didn’t sign it off. Looking back, I think he knew for a long time he was going to China because it was like we couldn’t do anything. Joelinton was the test.

 

‘Why on earth would you not want that? As a football manager, with all the things you have said, why wouldn’t you want Joelinton? It wasn’t even as if it was him or Salomon Rondon. And we told him that. We just wanted Joelinton secured.’

[STM]

At some point Joelinton has to show something right? We cant just keep making excuses like team selection, out of position, shit manager, first season etc etc.

 

At some point he has to, you know, pass the ball in the right direction, win a tackle, get a shot on target, that sort of thing. Call me old fashioned like. 

[KaKa]

Yes, because he hasn't done any of those things at all since he joined. Of course

[STM]

Yes, because he hasn't done any of those things at all since he joined. Of course

 

Not to the standards of PL footballer, no.

 

He has been totally shite. Will he always be shite? Noone can answer that.

[bobloblaw]

The large transfer fee is irrelevant at this point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

 

Damaging the overall team in an attempt to recoup some of the value is a bad idea.

[Sho Time]

Don't get the 'play him in his position' stuff. He's played behind the striker before with Carroll and was awful.

 

Bruce doesn't play the same kind of football as what was played at Hoffenheim when he was there - different players, different league. Sticking him in a position he's more familiar with helps nobody unless we're going to play to his strengths which clearly Hoffenheim did.

[STM]

What strengths are those? What can he do, that stands him above other players?

 

Hes big and strong but doesnt hold the ball up particularly well. Hes quickish but doesnt dribble past players or make good runs. His passing is bang average, short range stuff. His off the ball work rate is nothing to shout about. His shooting is dreadful.

 

If he did 1 thing well, I could sympathise and say he should be played in x position with x player but he hasnt done anything well.

[mrmojorisin75]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

This has been bothering me a bit. Hoffenheim qualified for the CL for the first time in 17/18 when Joelinton was in Austria. He came back from loan and played the next season.

 

It's a little misleading to claim he played for a champions league team imo.

[KaKa]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

This has been bothering me a bit. Hoffenheim qualified for the CL for the first time in 17/18 when Joelinton was in Austria. He came back from loan and played the next season.

 

It's a little misleading to claim he played for a champions league team imo.

 

That season he was good enough to play for (1) A manager better than ours (2) A team better than ours that played champions league games that he featured in.

 

There's no disputing that. Coming here was a step down for him, other than for the money thrown at him.

[STM]

And for what it's worth he played under one of the best managers, and for a champion's league team, where he was a main fixture.

 

This has been bothering me a bit. Hoffenheim qualified for the CL for the first time in 17/18 when Joelinton was in Austria. He came back from loan and played the next season.

 

It's a little misleading to claim he played for a champions league team imo.

 

That season he was good enough to play for (1) A manager better than ours (2) A team better than ours that played champions league games that he featured in.

 

There's no disputing that. Coming here was a step down for him, other than for the money thrown at him.

 

So now Joelinton is too good for us?

 

By that logic, shouldn't he be out shining our other players?

 

Hes terrible. I suspect he wasnt a particularly good player at Hoffenheim either but was part of a decent set up.

[KaKa]

 

Yes, it was the magic setup at Hoffenheim, of course.

 

Just like it was the magic setup at Haller's previous club too, and now he is being exposed at West Ham.

 

Funny how these players keep getting found out by PFMs isn't it. Gosh these PFMs are all so clever.

[Menace]

KaKa Haller had a 1 in 2 ratio for Frankfurt & Utrecht.. What are you even talking about honestly?

 

 

But nagelsmann rates him!

[STM]

 

Yes, it was the magic setup at Hoffenheim, of course.

 

Just like it was the magic setup at Haller's previous club too, and now he is being exposed at West Ham.

 

Funny how these players keep getting found out by PFMs isn't it. Gosh these PFMs are all so clever.

 

Haller is shite aswell. The Bundesliga isnt as good as the PL.

 

If these two are good players, why arent they scoring goals or playing well in this league? Is it the leagues fault?

[Hhtoon]

Needs loaning out to an easier league - for his benefit career wise, and ours to hopefully generate interest to recoup money.

 

Ideally we'd give him a run here but

a. We're not good enough to have a passenger and he likely isn't going to make the grade

b. Boo boys are out in force ala Thauvin. Even if he did start to perform better the £40m would just be thrown about

[KaKa]

KaKa Haller had a 1 in 2 ratio for Frankfurt & Utrecht.. What are you even talking about honestly?

 

 

But nagelsmann rates him!

 

So tell me why Haller, who is further along and better than Joelinton is not getting games at West Ham then?

 

The point, which you completely missed, is that Moyes is culpable because the team setup under Moyes is horrible, the football stinks and there was no support for him going forward when he was being used by Moyes initially.

 

Haller scored 5 before January, after which he only managed 2 under Moyes before being scrapped altogether.

 

Our setup last year was even worse than West Ham's, we had even less possession as the football was also worse, Joelinton had no support or runners around him, was being used as a target man (and still is) which he isn't, and yet people dismiss that altogether.

 

Whatever.

[KaKa]

 

Yes, it was the magic setup at Hoffenheim, of course.

 

Just like it was the magic setup at Haller's previous club too, and now he is being exposed at West Ham.

 

Funny how these players keep getting found out by PFMs isn't it. Gosh these PFMs are all so clever.

 

Haller is shite aswell. The Bundesliga isnt as good as the PL.

 

If these two are good players, why arent they scoring goals or playing well in this league? Is it the leagues fault?

 

and there it is. You're just one of those people that believe you throw a bunch of players on the pitch and things should just happen.

 

Same philosophy as Pardew, Bruce and Moyes. It's why they never achieve anything or last too long anywhere.

[STM]

KaKa Haller had a 1 in 2 ratio for Frankfurt & Utrecht.. What are you even talking about honestly?

 

 

But nagelsmann rates him!

 

So tell me why Haller, who is further along and better than Joelinton is not getting games at West Ham then?

 

The point, which you completely missed, is that Moyes is culpable because the team setup under Moyes is horrible, the football stinks and there was no support for him going forward when he was being used by Moyes initially.

 

Haller scored 5 before January, after which he only managed 2 under Moyes before being scrapped altogether.

 

Our setup last year was even worse than West Ham's, we had even less possession as the football was also worse, Joelinton had no support or runners around him, was being used as a target man (and still is) which he isn't, and yet people dismiss that altogether.

 

Whatever.

 

Moyes is a terrible manager, noone disputes that.

 

However, Antonio has 9 goals in 9 games up front for West Ham. Is Antonio a better striker than Haller?

 

I'd admire your resolution but at this stage you might as well be arguing that the sky is red.

[STM]

 

Yes, it was the magic setup at Hoffenheim, of course.

 

Just like it was the magic setup at Haller's previous club too, and now he is being exposed at West Ham.

 

Funny how these players keep getting found out by PFMs isn't it. Gosh these PFMs are all so clever.

 

Haller is shite aswell. The Bundesliga isnt as good as the PL.

 

If these two are good players, why arent they scoring goals or playing well in this league? Is it the leagues fault?

 

and there it is. You're just one of those people that believe you throw a bunch of players on the pitch and things should just happen.

 

No I'm not. But I do believe that if you put a "good" professional footballer on the pitch, they would at least be able to show something.

 

Let me change tac, where should Joelinton play for us and in what formation, style etc?

[KaKa]

Moyes is terrible. As is Bruce. Or to be more fair they are just very basic or simple managers. They can do well with a specific type of player.

 

I've always said these managers should just be given more rudimentary and direct players with power and pace. That is their bread and butter.

 

It's why ASM will always look good for us no matter what. It's why Antonio performs in Moyes' setup too.

 

Any kind of player that requires any additional thought or tactical setup to get the best out of should not be given to these types of managers. We've already seen what Lanzini and Felipe Anderson can produce in this league, but no, not good enough for Moyes.

 

I just don't want to hear about players being crap under these jokers who haven't got a clue what they're doing.

[STM]

Moyes is terrible. As is Bruce. Or to be more fair they are just very basic or simple managers. They can do well with a specific type of player.

 

I've always said these managers should just be given more rudimentary and direct players with power and pace. That is their bread and butter.

 

It's why ASM will always look good for us no matter what. It's why Antonio performs in Moyes' setup too.

 

Any kind of player that requires any additional thought or tactical setup to get the best out of should not be given to these types of managers. We've already seen what Lanzini and Felipe Anderson can produce in this league, but no, not good enough for Moyes.

 

I just don't want to hear about players being crap under these jokers who haven't got a clue what they're doing.

 

I agree with most of that. It's the last paragraph I take issue with.

 

No manager is going make Joelinton look good because...hes not very good. You cannot polish a turd.

 

I could understand if he showed glimpses, or played some neat football but I've actually watched him with my eyes. He refuses opportunities to shoot, when he does shoot he either misses or has a tame shot. He never takes the ball past a player or creates something or is that not his game? What is his game, I have yet to recieve an answer?

 

Whoever said he was comparable to Firmino wants a bullet to the skull.