Joelinton

[TRon]

2 hours ago, McCormick said:

Like with most players, especially at our level, you have to take the good with the bad. Very few teams will have the perfect player for their position.

 

If he had the press-resistance and ball-playing ability of someone like Bruno for example he’d be the best cm in the league. As for now, he’s got a lot of useful attributes to work with.

 

Agree. I did think when he was stalling over his contract whether it might be the right time to sell him. But then for all his faults, he still brings a lot to the table. It would probably cost a lot of money to replace him, just not sure that position is a priority for us ahead of RW or CB.

[Lenny]

I often wonder, and wouldn't be surprised if, when the likes of Joelinton and Bruno get caught trying to carry the ball, it's instruction to ride challenges with the belief that we'll be better for it, if successful.

 

Bruno and Joelinton have demonstrable and evidenced ability to ride challenges at high risk, and often, when successful we are in a significantly stronger position than had they played it simple.

 

Much like line-breaking pass attempts, and ambitious through passes, it's risk vs reward, and maybe Howe deems the reward worthy of the risk over a sustained period of time. It will cost us the odd goal, but the net outcome will be deemed better than not taking any chances.

Naturally it would need continued review by the coaching staff and if Joelinton, for example, is failing at it to the extent that it's costing us more than it's benefiting us over a period of time, then it needs addressing.

 

It's similar to when Botman makes a mistake attempting a line breaking pass. He's probably instructed to do so at every possible opportunity as it's an evidenced strength of his. He will get some wrong and it'll cost us in isolated incidents, but we're better for it overall.

[Kanj]

1 hour ago, Lenny said:

I often wonder, and wouldn't be surprised if, when the likes of Joelinton and Bruno get caught trying to carry the ball, it's instruction to ride challenges with the belief that we'll be better for it, if successful.

 

Bruno and Joelinton have demonstrable and evidenced ability to ride challenges at high risk, and often, when successful we are in a significantly stronger position than had they played it simple.

 

Much like line-breaking pass attempts, and ambitious through passes, it's risk vs reward, and maybe Howe deems the reward worthy of the risk over a sustained period of time. It will cost us the odd goal, but the net outcome will be deemed better than not taking any chances.

Naturally it would need continued review by the coaching staff and if Joelinton, for example, is failing at it to the extent that it's costing us more than it's benefiting us over a period of time, then it needs addressing.

 

It's similar to when Botman makes a mistake attempting a line breaking pass. He's probably instructed to do so at every possible opportunity as it's an evidenced strength of his. He will get some wrong and it'll cost us in isolated incidents, but we're better for it overall.

class post mate. Couldn’t agree more. 

[Kanj]

Can our fans stop having a pop at every single little mistake a player makes? Nobody is perfect. I saw mistakes all over the shop with City yesterday. It’s really annoying. Seems like every player must be a 8/10 every time they play or they are shit. 

[Tiresias]

He's not been at his best but the trajectory is positive. He's a brilliant midfielder not sure how anyone who watched him boss around everyone in his way the season we got 4th and how much we missed him second half of last season can think otherwise. 

 

Issue is none of our midfielders are ball retention specialists, which is fine it's not how we play but i do wish we would have signed one to give us the option of calming down games when needed. Joelinton and all our midfielders play high risk games 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Tiresias

[TheBrownBottle]

4 hours ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Howay man.

I think he’s a good player at PL level.  I just don’t think he’s a good midfielder.  As an attacking midfielder or left winger?  I think he’s very good.

 

I’m not saying the lad is a bad player generally

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, Tiresias said:

He's not been at his best but the trajectory is positive. He's a brilliant midfielder not sure how anyone who watched him boss around everyone in his way the season we got 4th and how much we missed him second half of last season can think otherwise. 

 

Issue is none of our midfielders are ball retention specialists, which is fine it's not how we play but i do wish we would have signed one to give us the option of calming down games when needed. Joelinton and all our midfielders play high risk games 

 

 

 

He played midfield seven times when we finished 4th.  He played the vast majority of games much further forward.  

[madras]

Just now, TheBrownBottle said:

He played midfield seven times when we finished 4th.  He played the vast majority of games much further forward.  

Dunno like. That season wasn't there a lot of dovetailing with Willock ?

[Tiresias]

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

He played midfield seven times when we finished 4th.  He played the vast majority of games much further forward.  

 

He was switching with Willock, Willock would come into the middle and Joelinton pull out wide and vice versa a lot, he was in central plenty of the time

 

I do wonder with our move to slightly more defined roles has made us a bit more predictable in attack, Willock and Joelinton's positioning must have been difficult to track, and I also hope we get that Willock back sometime

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Tiresias

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, madras said:

Dunno like. That season wasn't there a lot of dovetailing with Willock ?

There was, Joelinton played LW and Willock LCM - and they were both intelligent enough to switch occasionally to cause maximum carnage.  But Joelinton was LW

 

I think the lad is at his best when he’s got a technically more able footballer behind him.  Watching Joelinton driving forward with the ball is great - and he’s got a cracking first touch.

 

I don’t think his strengths work in midfield.  

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, Tiresias said:

 

He was switching with Willock, Willock would come into the middle and Joelinton pull out wide and vice versa a lot, he was in central plenty of the time

Agreed, but they’d always switch back, and without Willock he doesn’t look anything like the same player.  He doesn’t look good behind Gordon

[Tiresias]

2 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

There was, Joelinton played LW and Willock LCM - and they were both intelligent enough to switch occasionally to cause maximum carnage.  But Joelinton was LW

 

I think the lad is at his best when he’s got a technically more able footballer behind him.  Watching Joelinton driving forward with the ball is great - and he’s got a cracking first touch.

 

I don’t think his strengths work in midfield.  

 

 

This is his heatmap for that season, certainly left sided but getting a lot more into the central areas. He is in that gray area between winger and midfielder but he certainly was in that lcm position a lot of the time, here is (apologies different format an way round i am just googling) Gordons last season where he hugs the line a LOT more of the time and spends a lot more of the time nearer the corner flag

 

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, Tiresias said:

 

 

This is his heatmap for that season, certainly left sided but getting a lot more into the central areas. He is in that gray area between winger and midfielder but he certainly was in that lcm position a lot of the time, here is (apologies different format an way round i am just googling) Gordons last season where he hugs the line a LOT more of the time and spends a lot more of the time nearer the corner flag

 

Interesting, cheers - the heat maps look pretty similar to me tbf.  And neither are the heat map of a midfielder.

 

With us playing 4-3-3, and Bruno lying so deep, the two other midfielders tuck in a lot.  I just don’t think Joelinton is the player to do that.

 

I’m honestly not saying that I think he’s a bad footballer, he’s a really good PL footballer - but he needs to be played where his strengths are.  I don’t think his current position in the side gets anything like the best performances out of him 

[Tiresias]

6 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Interesting, cheers - the heat maps look pretty similar to me tbf.  And neither are the heat map of a midfielder.

 

With us playing 4-3-3, and Bruno lying so deep, the two other midfielders tuck in a lot.  I just don’t think Joelinton is the player to do that.

 

I’m honestly not saying that I think he’s a bad footballer, he’s a really good PL footballer - but he needs to be played where his strengths are.  I don’t think his current position in the side gets anything like the best performances out of him 

 

I think we may be arguing on linguistics he's in the top left are of a left sided 3 person midfield a lot on that heat map that a winger wouldn't be a huge amount but didn't really matter what you call it. I totally agree he's not a deep lying midfield you may have in the old double pivot but he can do that, but you'd be right to say he's not best in class at that but when i say he's great in midfield that's not role i think of, it's in that advanced left side winning ball high up

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Tiresias

[TRon]

7 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Interesting, cheers - the heat maps look pretty similar to me tbf.  And neither are the heat map of a midfielder.

 

With us playing 4-3-3, and Bruno lying so deep, the two other midfielders tuck in a lot.  I just don’t think Joelinton is the player to do that.

 

I’m honestly not saying that I think he’s a bad footballer, he’s a really good PL footballer - but he needs to be played where his strengths are.  I don’t think his current position in the side gets anything like the best performances out of him 

 

I get what you are saying, I just think it takes a really good CM to replace him, and I don't think it's high on our priorities right now. Might have been if we'd sold him though.

[Shak]

Joelinton is an incredibly easy player to cheer for and I do think he's turned into a good Premier League midfielder who'll be a solid asset for years to come.

 

That said, there's a decent argument to be made that moving him on last summer and replacing him with a player who's better in possession might have been the smart move when you divorce emotion from it.

 

Tonali seems to me like he'll eventually be able to bring pretty much all of what Joelinton does to the table in terms of his presence in midfield, while having a much better eye for a pass and generally being tidier in possession.

 

Either a player to play as the #6 and release Bruno further upfield or a more creative #8 seems like a better complement to Bruno and Tonali in my view, with those two being who I suspect we're planning to build the midfield around. This is especially true if we're trying to transition to being a bit more possession based, which the early part of the season seems to point to being the case.

 

As much as Joelinton does bring to the team, it's hard having one of your more attack minded midfielders being someone who offers very little quality in the final third.

[Tiresias]

I agree completely a solid defensive mid who can keep possession is needed and joelinton is one who may have to make way to allow tonali there but i want more than 3 high quality midfielders to sort between. There is also something to be said for keeping squad dynamics when good there, Joe is clearly well loved, committed and loves the club the style of play and the manager and the rest of the squad. The maybe we should have sold him to bring in s different type isn't without merit but also feels a bit in a vacuum tactics board thinking

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Tiresias

[Groundhog63]

4 hours ago, NG32 said:

I cant get my head round this. 

 

Plays in a top 7 prem team which finished 4th the season before. 

Plays international football for Brazil.

 

Something tells me he is more than just a "good" prem midfielder. 

 

An argument one could easily make in defence of Longstaff, Murphy, Miggy etc etc *

 

(*) obvs not the "Brazil" bit

[Hanshithispantz]

I think he's become massively underrated personally, he's very positive, always looks to make use of his physicality to move into space, and sometimes he'll get caught out. He could absolutely play the Longstaff pass if he wanted to, it's just you would be losing out on his ability to turn defence to attack for the sake of making us more solid in possession.

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Hanshithispantz

[Hanshithispantz]

I think we can and will start to make better use of him in attack too, the Schar/Trippier to Jer longball is deadly.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Hanshithispantz

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

I think we can and will start to nake better use of him in attack too, the Schar/Trippier to Jer longball is deadly.

Joelinton’s ability to read those passes - and control it quickly - is excellent.  Though I’d argue he does this better when played further forward  

[TheBrownBottle]

36 minutes ago, Tiresias said:

 

I think we may be arguing on linguistics he's in the top left are of a left sided 3 person midfield a lot on that heat map that a winger wouldn't be a huge amount but didn't really matter what you call it. I totally agree he's not a deep lying midfield you may have in the old double pivot but he can do that, but you'd be right to say he's not best in class at that but when i say he's great in midfield that's not role i think of, it's in that advanced left side winning ball high up

 

 

 

I think we have been  - this is what I’ve been trying to say (though admittedly not that well).  

[NG32]

18 hours ago, Groundhog63 said:

 

An argument one could easily make in defence of Longstaff, Murphy, Miggy etc etc *

 

(*) obvs not the "Brazil" bit

He has way more attributes to his game than all three of those. 

[Stottie]

This video says Big Joe was dropping in to make a back five. I was on the motorway for this one and only got to experience the match on Radio Newcastle via the app. Big Joe's heat map for the game does bear out the analysis here.

 

 

[Joelinton7]

He’s been a makeshift LB for us this season