Allan Saint-Maximin (now playing for Fenerbahce, on loan from Al-Ahli)

[Cookie1892]

3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

This is lazy journalism. ASM is a far more creative player than Barnes. He created far more chances than Barnes does. Barnes is far better in end product in terms of goals. But the final pass? Easily ASM.  

 

 

 

 you need help with your eyesight

 

you have also massively contradicted yourself - end product and final pass are the same thing and Maxis shocking with both in general

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Cookie1892

[RobS]

4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

This is lazy journalism. ASM is a far more creative player than Barnes. He created far more chances than Barnes does. Barnes is far better in end product in terms of goals. But the final pass? Easily ASM.  

 

 

 

Barnes 2.7 XA vs ASM 3.6 XA is not massive, but their xg is 2.1 to 7.8 - he creates slightly less but smashes in goals, he’s ultimately a better footballer ?

[PauloGeordio]

We could be lifting the Champions league trophy and this debate will still be ongoing. He gone yet? 
 

summed up in the Athletics latest article:

 

“While Saint-Maximin will be remembered for his trickery and adventurous style of play — along with a sometimes disappointing end product and rather lacklustre defensive efforts — Barnes’ style is more straightforward: one-twos and goals”

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by PauloGeordio

[54]

9 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

This is lazy journalism. ASM is a far more creative player than Barnes. He created far more chances than Barnes does. Barnes is far better in end product in terms of goals. But the final pass? Easily ASM.  

 

 

 

It depends on what you class as creativity to be honest, here are the stats for the past four seasons in the Premier League for both expected goal and expected assists:

 

Expected Assists

Barnes = 13.9

ASM = 15.9

 

Expected Goals

Barnes = 28.9

ASM = 12.7

 

So while ASM is slightly ahead on assists its actually kind of negligible, but the net gain in terms of goals is hugely superior for Barnes. Obviously this is just pure output, and doesn't show the amount of work that ASM does in terms of progressive carries etc, but it is a good indication that Barnes is at least on par with ASM in terms of creativity.

[Guest reefatoon]

They are completely different types of players, so all this comparing is a little pointless.

 

Howe feels Barnes and his style will work better in his team/plans and how he wants to set up and play.

 

I’m sure Howe was a fan of ASM too, but he’s went for someone that he feels will do the job for him. Football is ruthless and managers have to make these decisions if they feel it will benefit the team.

 

Good luck ASM, go and enjoy your football and go show your stuff.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by reefatoon

[The College Dropout]

3 minutes ago, RobS said:

Barnes 2.7 XA vs ASM 3.6 XA is not massive, but their xg is 2.1 to 7.8 - he creates slightly less but smashes in goals, he’s ultimately a better footballer ?

You have to watch football with your eyes and use stats in context. ASM progressive passes, expected assists, shot creating actions, passes into the penalty area, key passes per 90 mins are as good as you’re going to find. ASM is a dream for people attacking the box, he’s a chance creating force. The tweet is last journalism based on stereotypes.  
 

Barnes is damn near an elite finisher and gets to his spots.  Far more end product in terms of goals that can’t be contested.  But providing chances for team mates? That’s a weakness in his game and far inferior to ASM in that regard. 

[Gallowgate Toon]

ASM wasn't the most fun to watch in the squad, for me. He was unpredictably predictable, if that makes sense  Isak and Bruno I find the most enjoyable for different reasons. Trippier, Joelinton and Willock have regular outstanding moments as well.

[PauloGeordio]

 

[The College Dropout]

9 minutes ago, 54 said:

It depends on what you class as creativity to be honest, here are the stats for the past four seasons in the Premier League for both expected goal and expected assists:

 

Expected Assists

Barnes = 13.9

ASM = 15.9

 

Expected Goals

Barnes = 28.9

ASM = 12.7

 

So while ASM is slightly ahead on assists it’s actually kind of negligible, but the net gain in terms of goals is hugely superior for Barnes. Obviously this is just pure output, and doesn't show the amount of work that ASM does in terms of progressive carries etc, but it is a good indication that Barnes is at least on par with ASM in terms of creativity.

It’s better to look at stats for the last 2 seasons and per 90 minutes. Because ASM has missed a lot of games last season and until Howe came, had been playing in one of the least attacking teams in the league. Barnes has always played in a strong attacking team. 
 

When Barnes comes, I expect it’s going to become clear that the creativity gap between him and ASM is not ‘negligible’. But I’m hoping he continues his excellent finishing and in a better team he could even get to Mo Salah type numbers of goals. 

[Hanshithispantz]

Barnes is never going to have a game like Maxi against Walker, or like when he single handedly ran the entire Everton team ragged, but you would imagine our chance creation as a group will improve when Howe has players better suited to what we're trying to do. Tonali helps that massively as well, as will Gordon.

[RobS]

19 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

You have to watch football with your eyes and use stats in context. ASM progressive passes, expected assists, shot creating actions, passes into the penalty area, key passes per 90 mins are as good as you’re going to find. ASM is a dream for people attacking the box, he’s a chance creating force. The tweet is last journalism based on stereotypes.  
 

Barnes is damn near an elite finisher and gets to his spots.  Far more end product in terms of goals that can’t be contested.  But providing chances for team mates? That’s a weakness in his game and far inferior to ASM in that regard. 

You say that, and when Maxi was at his best and fit he was a joy to watch. But it lasted 4-6 weeks if you were lucky before he cba or got injured and was missing for months again. And he was also insanely frustrating, how many times did he try a trick or try and beat a man only to give the ball away, or not make the obvious pass?

 

He’s a very gifted player, but he is flawed and that’s the reason he’s played for us for years and is now going to Saudi. Barnes is a upgrade, fitter, more reliable and will score a ton of goals and assist quite a lot, will you not cheer when he scores all the time?

[The College Dropout]

Factually in 90 minutes of football, ASM is going to create more chances, make more progressive passes and shot creating actions than Barnes.  All ‘frustrations’ aside, he’s a more creative and involved footballer. 
 

The aim is for Barnes to get to his spots and finish chances.  Make great runs etc. but he’s not going to get on the ball and create. That’s not his game.  He’s not cute of pass, he’s not going to beat a man, he’s not got excellent delivery. 

[Groundhog63]

7 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Factually in 90 minutes of football, ASM is going to create more chances, make more progressive passes and shot creating actions than Barnes.  All ‘frustrations’ aside, he’s a more creative and involved footballer. 
 

The aim is for Barnes to get to his spots and finish chances.  Make great runs etc. but he’s not going to get on the ball and create. That’s not his game.  He’s not cute of pass, he’s not going to beat a man, he’s not got excellent delivery. 

"Factually" in 90 minutes Maxi spent more time on his arse than his feet. 

 

Barnes has been brought in to replicate the 1-2, pass and move of the right hand side AND score double figures. 

 

He will. 

[Gallowgate Toon]

11 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Factually in 90 minutes of football, ASM is going to create more chances, make more progressive passes and shot creating actions than Barnes.  All ‘frustrations’ aside, he’s a more creative and involved footballer. 
 

The aim is for Barnes to get to his spots and finish chances.  Make great runs etc. but he’s not going to get on the ball and create. That’s not his game.  He’s not cute of pass, he’s not going to beat a man, he’s not got excellent delivery. 

Is this actually true though? Or, more specifically, he may have a very good final ball. His assist tallies have varied but overall numbers are strong across his PL career to date. Last season seems to have been an outlier in the assist stakes after a career high 21/22 (I don't believe he was on set pieces but may be wrong).

 

xA per 90 numbers vary for different sources but it looks like Barnes matched Maxi's 22/23 last season.

[Groundhog63]

I know I've posted a couple of less than positive comments about Maxi but that's not to say I didn't enjoy his "flair" 

For me, apart from the odd goal which any wide forward should be capable of, the moment that epitomises him was v Leicester (iirc) 

Picked the ball up, just in their half, and drove forward. Miggy was ahead of him and went across into the same channel. Maxi passed to an empty space. 

Clear example of his superb progression with ball, his teammate not having a clue wtf he was going to do with it and, ultimately, fucked up end product.

Oh, and straight after, tho his frustrations were understandable, he had a hissy fit as if he was surrounded by mere mortals. 

 

 

[Pata]

1 hour ago, Gallowgate Toon said:

xA per 90 numbers vary for different sources but it looks like Barnes matched Maxi's 22/23 last season.

Which source has them close to equal? Understat has ASM at 0.39 and Barnes at 0.10 xA per 90 for 22/23.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Pata

[Gallowgate Toon]

1 minute ago, Pata said:

Which source has them close to equal? Understat has ASM at 0.39 and Barnes at 0.10 xA per 90.

Whoops, meant Barnes' 21/22 season matched Maxi's 22/23 for it.

 

This is another place xA gets tricky though. Understat says one thing, Footystats (who use TheSport) says another for seasonal breakdowns. SofaScore don't use xA past last season, from memory etc.

[Pata]

3 minutes ago, Gallowgate Toon said:

Whoops, meant Barnes' 21/22 season matched Maxi's 22/23 for it.

 

This is another place xA gets tricky though. Understat says one thing, Footystats (who use TheSport) says another for seasonal breakdowns. SofaScore don't use xA past last season, from memory etc.

Understat has Barnes at 0.19 for 21/22, which is his highest number at Leicester.
 

I know Understat’s xG model is nowhere near the best but it’s such a nice site with tons of data available for free.

[prefabtoon]

The reality is non of the top clubs in the premier league or abroad.

Have shown the slightest bit of interest in bidding for max.

That says it all really.

[Pata]

1 minute ago, prefabtoon said:

The reality is non of the top clubs in the premier league or abroad.

Have shown the slightest bit of interest in bidding for max.

That says it all really.

Napoli were apparently interested.

[prefabtoon]

6 minutes ago, Pata said:

Napoli were apparently interested.

Yeah about 3 year ago but so where arsenal at the time.

[Gawalls]

2 hours ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Barnes is never going to have a game like Maxi against Walker, or like when he single handedly ran the entire Everton team ragged, but you would imagine our chance creation as a group will improve when Howe has players better suited to what we're trying to do. Tonali helps that massively as well, as will Gordon.

This is true but you'll never get stories like this from ASM - Barnes looks to continue run against villa.   Each player has their own ups and downs and it's a shame we can't keep them both but it is what it is.  As i've said loads of times in last few days, this is the first time we've had to make a 'sacrifice' under new owners has so far it's been taking new players and it was always gonna happen one day.  To Quote George Michael "You've showed me you can take you've got some giving to do"

[patrone]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

Factually in 90 minutes of football, ASM is going to create more chances, make more progressive passes and shot creating actions than Barnes.  All ‘frustrations’ aside, he’s a more creative and involved footballer. 
 

The aim is for Barnes to get to his spots and finish chances.  Make great runs etc. but he’s not going to get on the ball and create. That’s not his game.  He’s not cute of pass, he’s not going to beat a man, he’s not got excellent delivery. 

 

And what use is that if he can only produce this magical 90 minutes two or three times a season due to fitness levels?

[Pata]

24 minutes ago, prefabtoon said:

Yeah about 3 year ago but so where arsenal at the time.

Nah, it was this summer.

[Weezertron]

If this goes through, there'll be times next season where we'll wish we had Maxi on the bench late on against teams we can't break down. It'll be shit. Hopefully those moments will become less and less though.