Eddie Howe - Granted Freedom of Newcastle

[The College Dropout]

25 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

We should stop crying the poor tale when it comes to villa too mind, we do have significant advantages which they don't have as well. Having a state sponsor is still huge regardless of RPT rules. 

What have been the practical advantages to date over Villa’s ownership?

 

Think the Sela deal would be larger than we could get otherwise. 
 

Great atmosphere around the club for 2.5 years helped on the pitch. 
 

We assume the stadium won’t be financed by loans but that is all tbc.  
 

Sold ASM to Saudi. 
 

Ladies team is doing brilliantly.  
 

PIF have money and power but they actually have to use it for it to be useful.  PSR means they have to be creative to use the money and we haven’t seen much of that.  They can use their money on infrastructure and academy - no concrete plans there. Academy will take time - Villa already have a top academy. Power? Again actually have to use it.  
 

Ladies team will be serious though.  
 

Innovative, ambitious and committed owners are more important than rich and powerful ones that are not also all 3 of the above for a club like us.  
 

Our owners have higher potential than Villa’s owners - I agree with that.   But not seen the skill, commitment and ability to make things happen.  It looks like they let the minority stakeholders run the club while only providing a budget and bureaucracy. 
 

Early days yet. Villa’s owners let one of the minority stakeholders or even just a pal - give Gerrard the keys to the club for 12 months or so. Our Owners haven’t done anything that silly. 

[The College Dropout]

12 minutes ago, Zero said:

We don’t have any genuine financial risk. As long as PIF has patience, we could restart the process again, just sell the purples and rebuild.

 

Recently I have a second thought, that if such a rebuild is inevitable, Howe is probably the best manager for the job.

If wages become a problem it won’t be resolved by selling 3 players.  The whole structure will need changing. I don’t think we’ll continue to give first team wages to bench players (Barnes and Kelly) and giving super max contracts to the likes of Joelinton though 

[Stal]

11 hours ago, 80 said:

The youth academy is a killer for us. We were most of a decade behind any significant competitor. You can buy a lot of things quickly, but not that.

 

It's been longer than a decade. We haven't had a decent academy at any point in my lifetime. Whilst other clubs seem to churn out prospect after prospect, who have we produced of any first team value? I mean no disrespect to the individuals but players I can remember coming through who have made any impact after Keegan's first reign are negligible. There we had Howey, Lee Clark, Robbie Elliot (the proper one, not the shit keeper) and Steve Watson.

 

Andy Carroll tops the list but then we have Steven Taylor, Ramage, turncoat shola, Chopra, Huntingdon, Matty Pattison, that midfielder that Gullit loved whose name I've forgotten. And hey, I loved some of these even if they weren't quite good enough. Not shola though, he can just bury himself back in mike ashley's arse.

 

I used to joke that our academy might as well just go to Blyth and Gateshead right now as that's where they all seemed to end up. Do I expect everyone to come out of the academy to be Messi level? Of course not, I don't even expect superstar players but we should have a few competent Premier League level performers regularly being churned out.

[TRon]

16 hours ago, 80 said:

 

I had a post but TCD beat me to the punch. Basically, there are serious question marks over whether any manager can get us to where we want to be on a sustainable basis, if the wider club environment isn't offering positivity, sensible ambitions, consistent support and smart, determined thinking to overcome systemic restrictions like PSR.

 

We can kick Eddie Howe out the club, but after a few spins of the wheel we may well end up concluding he wasn't the root cause of our failure.

 

--

 

My post should have ended there, but consider Emery and Villa. It's weird how everything they've done is basically a year behind us. It's plausible that another 12 months of PSR restrictions, fatigue and the dawning realisation for their players that it isn't going to get any better if they stay in Birmingham will drain the life out of them and make them even rockier next season. And that's a club that has a much stronger infrastructure than us overall.

 

Any owner is going to face the same problems with PSR. All TCD has done to date is criticise the current leadership's lack of creative solutions such as academy or new ground to release more cash without actually knowing for sure whether these might already be in the works.

 

This is just pointless speculation IMO. If you think the owners aren't interested then would be better just to say we need new owners because these ones aren't committed if that's what you believe. But really if they are not ambitious, why would they sack Eddie? He's doing a par job. It doesn't add up.

[Zero]

41 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

If wages become a problem it won’t be resolved by selling 3 players.  The whole structure will need changing. I don’t think we’ll continue to give first team wages to bench players (Barnes and Kelly) and giving super max contracts to the likes of Joelinton though 

Yep, you are right. It’s not just selling those 3. We need to go through a complete rebuild and raise our own youth products (Miley, Sanusi) and likely it’s a 4-5 years project. I expect only Hall and Tino would remain.

 

And that’s why after second thought I hope Howe stays and lead this project. He loves the club and has the passion. We won’t have any relegation risk.

[The College Dropout]

39 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

Any owner is going to face the same problems with PSR. All TCD has done to date is criticise the current leadership's lack of creative solutions such as academy or new ground to release more cash without actually knowing for sure whether these might already be in the works.

 

This is just pointless speculation IMO. If you think the owners aren't interested then would be better just to say we need new owners because these ones aren't committed if that's what you believe. But really if they are not ambitious, why would they sack Eddie? He's doing a par job. It doesn't add up.

Are these not valid criticisms or something?

 

We’ve had 3 years of evidence - including 1 year shit hit the fan and we dealt with it the worst of the 6 clubs involved.  We’ve seen other clubs navigate PSR issues with more nous and creativity. That’s not speculation - that’s evidence. The people involved have been moved on and we unanimously agree we were mismanaged by them. 

 

Sacking Eddie and being ambitious doesn’t mean much.  Ambition without skill and nous isn’t that useful.   Unless they can give the next manager  structure that they can succeed in it’s almost worthless. Increasing revenue is way more important than changing the manager. Being smart in the transfer market is way more important than changing the manager. 
 

Sorry pal but I think your second paragraph is BS. Running football clubs is tremendously difficult x10 one in our position.  I don’t expect Owners to come in and be perfect from day one.  Both City and Villa owners had multiple years wasting money, bad decisions etc. Brentford and Brighton needed years for their transfer approach to pay off big.  Our Owners have made mistakes and I want them to improve and do better as other owners have over time.  You seem to have this attitude that any criticism means I want the owners to leave - that’s a very shallow thought process. 

 

People did the same thing with Howe last season.  I criticised Howe last season because he made mistakes.  People thought I wanted him out and that’s such basic thinking. It’s because if they criticise a manager - they want them out.  I don’t think like that.  
 

Im ok if they don’t ever show the nous and creativity I hope for. We’ll eventually get a new stadium and a great academy which will bring us closer to the top 6 in the long term.  In the mean time we’ll average 7th/8th with the opportunity to challenge for cups.  That’s better than what I’ve experienced for most of my life. But the rhetoric of challenging at the top will misalign expectations. 

[80]

2 hours ago, Stal said:

 

It's been longer than a decade. We haven't had a decent academy at any point in my lifetime. Whilst other clubs seem to churn out prospect after prospect, who have we produced of any first team value? I mean no disrespect to the individuals but players I can remember coming through who have made any impact after Keegan's first reign are negligible. There we had Howey, Lee Clark, Robbie Elliot (the proper one, not the shit keeper) and Steve Watson.

 

Andy Carroll tops the list but then we have Steven Taylor, Ramage, turncoat shola, Chopra, Huntingdon, Matty Pattison, that midfielder that Gullit loved whose name I've forgotten. And hey, I loved some of these even if they weren't quite good enough. Not shola though, he can just bury himself back in mike ashley's arse.

 

I used to joke that our academy might as well just go to Blyth and Gateshead right now as that's where they all seemed to end up. Do I expect everyone to come out of the academy to be Messi level? Of course not, I don't even expect superstar players but we should have a few competent Premier League level performers regularly being churned out.

You're right, but it's especially stupid Ashley didn't show any interest in it when it started becoming really obvious it was going to be critical around about 2010. Before roughly then, youth were often seen as a nice bonus, but after that it became a key industrial process, and we were one of the few to totally ignore it.

[The College Dropout]

Was there a single area of the club that Ashley bothered to invest in?

 

A proper commercial team and academy pays for itself plus profit. 
 

I’ll never forget how the wider footballing world just didn’t care. That’s a main reason I don’t care if we find money hacks and just blow everyone out and dominate like that. They didn’t care when we were being devalued, they don’t care that we are blocked from investing. I won’t care if we ever buy our way to success. 

[TRon]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

Are these not valid criticisms or something?

 

We’ve had 3 years of evidence - including 1 year shit hit the fan and we dealt with it the worst of the 6 clubs involved.  We’ve seen other clubs navigate PSR issues with more nous and creativity. That’s not speculation - that’s evidence. The people involved have been moved on and we unanimously agree we were mismanaged by them. 

 

Sacking Eddie and being ambitious doesn’t mean much.  Ambition without skill and nous isn’t that useful.   Unless they can give the next manager  structure that they can succeed in it’s almost worthless. Increasing revenue is way more important than changing the manager. Being smart in the transfer market is way more important than changing the manager. 
 

Sorry pal but I think your second paragraph is BS. Running football clubs is tremendously difficult x10 one in our position.  I don’t expect Owners to come in and be perfect from day one.  Both City and Villa owners had multiple years wasting money, bad decisions etc. Brentford and Brighton needed years for their transfer approach to pay off big.  Our Owners have made mistakes and I want them to improve and do better as other owners have over time.  You seem to have this attitude that any criticism means I want the owners to leave - that’s a very shallow thought process. 

 

People did the same thing with Howe last season.  I criticised Howe last season because he made mistakes.  People thought I wanted him out and that’s such basic thinking. It’s because if they criticise a manager - they want them out.  I don’t think like that.  
 

Im ok if they don’t ever show the nous and creativity I hope for. We’ll eventually get a new stadium and a great academy which will bring us closer to the top 6 in the long term.  In the mean time we’ll average 7th/8th with the opportunity to challenge for cups.  That’s better than what I’ve experienced for most of my life. But the rhetoric of challenging at the top will misalign expectations. 

 

I'm just looking at a realistic way forward. I think what would be useful is an update from PIF as to what our current ambitions are. Fans might still be going off the Yasir quote about becoming No 1, but that's since been updated to getting into Europe in the short term at least. For that we aren't that much off course, it's quite conceivable that Howe could achieve that even with 8th place.

 

As for other clubs navigating PSR issues, I think all clubs have different headroom, and they probably come under less scrutiny as well. Just have to look at Man U with their Covid allowances to see that. We've hired top class people to oversee all this. What is it you are arguing then? They are bad hires and we should sack them and get others instead?

 

 

[OverThere]

13 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

I'm just looking at a realistic way forward. I think what would be useful is an update from PIF as to what our current ambitions are. Fans might still be going off the Yasir quote about becoming No 1, but that's since been updated to getting into Europe in the short term at least. For that we aren't that much off course, it's quite conceivable that Howe could achieve that even with 8th place.

 

As for other clubs navigating PSR issues, I think all clubs have different headroom, and they probably come under less scrutiny as well. Just have to look at Man U with their Covid allowances to see that. We've hired top class people to oversee all this. What is it you are arguing then? They are bad hires and we should sack them and get others instead?

 

 

The club hasn't been very good with putting its vision down on paper, even at a high level. I realize that you cant publicly say everything, but for instance, the timescale for the feasibility study has been very fluid. No one runs a project like that, so what is going on?

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by OverThere

[Kanj]

46 minutes ago, OverThere said:

The club hasn't been very good with putting its vision down on paper, even at a high level. I realize that you cant publicly say everything, but for instance, the timescale for the feasibility study has been very fluid. No one runs a project like that, so what is going on?

 

 

 

 

 

likely the study returned X results, and the club are going back & forth on questions, revisions etc. that's normal. 

[Kanj]

2 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Are these not valid criticisms or something?

 

We’ve had 3 years of evidence - including 1 year shit hit the fan and we dealt with it the worst of the 6 clubs involved.  We’ve seen other clubs navigate PSR issues with more nous and creativity. That’s not speculation - that’s evidence. The people involved have been moved on and we unanimously agree we were mismanaged by them. 

 

Sacking Eddie and being ambitious doesn’t mean much.  Ambition without skill and nous isn’t that useful.   Unless they can give the next manager  structure that they can succeed in it’s almost worthless. Increasing revenue is way more important than changing the manager. Being smart in the transfer market is way more important than changing the manager. 
 

Sorry pal but I think your second paragraph is BS. Running football clubs is tremendously difficult x10 one in our position.  I don’t expect Owners to come in and be perfect from day one.  Both City and Villa owners had multiple years wasting money, bad decisions etc. Brentford and Brighton needed years for their transfer approach to pay off big.  Our Owners have made mistakes and I want them to improve and do better as other owners have over time.  You seem to have this attitude that any criticism means I want the owners to leave - that’s a very shallow thought process. 

 

People did the same thing with Howe last season.  I criticised Howe last season because he made mistakes.  People thought I wanted him out and that’s such basic thinking. It’s because if they criticise a manager - they want them out.  I don’t think like that.  
 

Im ok if they don’t ever show the nous and creativity I hope for. We’ll eventually get a new stadium and a great academy which will bring us closer to the top 6 in the long term.  In the mean time we’ll average 7th/8th with the opportunity to challenge for cups.  That’s better than what I’ve experienced for most of my life. But the rhetoric of challenging at the top will misalign expectations. 

 

There are a few things there I don't agree with (fundamentally) but on the main, very well drilled down and a lot of good, transparent, no sugar coating analysis there.  

 

I've said this before, having been on this ride with NUFC since 96, I've seen more bad than good, and prior to Eddie it was a complete dumpster fire. I am perfectly happy slowly building and competing for any of the European places and making great cup runs. I would like the club to start acting that way in terms of communication, etc. You can't put pressure on Eddie to make CL or Europa but not give him a single bit of cash to sign players or don't make the convincing case of moving others on. That's not fair to Eddie and the coaching team. 

[TRon]

10 minutes ago, Kanj said:

 

There are a few things there I don't agree with (fundamentally) but on the main, very well drilled down and a lot of good, transparent, no sugar coating analysis there.  

 

I've said this before, having been on this ride with NUFC since 96, I've seen more bad than good, and prior to Eddie it was a complete dumpster fire. I am perfectly happy slowly building and competing for any of the European places and making great cup runs. I would like the club to start acting that way in terms of communication, etc. You can't put pressure on Eddie to make CL or Europa but not give him a single bit of cash to sign players or don't make the convincing case of moving others on. That's not fair to Eddie and the coaching team. 

 

I think Europa is a target to aim for, it's not tied inherently to Howe's job. Eddie's been backed pretty extensively in the transfer market, the only reason he's not getting more is because the league rules won't allow it. This means if Eddie wants more players we'll have to sell in order to generate the funds. He's been reluctant to let players go previously but seems to be on board with it now. Unfortunately it seems the only players clubs want is the ones he wants to keep.

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, TRon said:

 

I'm just looking at a realistic way forward. I think what would be useful is an update from PIF as to what our current ambitions are. Fans might still be going off the Yasir quote about becoming No 1, but that's since been updated to getting into Europe in the short term at least. For that we aren't that much off course, it's quite conceivable that Howe could achieve that even with 8th place.

 

As for other clubs navigating PSR issues, I think all clubs have different headroom, and they probably come under less scrutiny as well. Just have to look at Man U with their Covid allowances to see that. We've hired top class people to oversee all this. What is it you are arguing then? They are bad hires and we should sack them and get others instead?

 

 

I’m not advocating sacking anyone lol.  
 

Leicester, Everton, Chelsea, Forest, Newcastle, Villa all had PSR issues to deal with.  All these clubs traded before the deadline.  We were one of the last to act and we got the worst deal of them all - sold a useful player for a useless player  and our most valuable prospect in a position we needed enforcements. That was dealt badly - Forest fleeced us.  They got Anderson for 15m which they can recoup if needed. We didn’t even get the best offer for Minteh. Anyway the ppl involved have gone. But that still happened under PIFs watch - that doesnt absolve them of blame. They are the major shareholders. 
 

I’ve no reason to think Yasir has changed  his end goal. So I will stick with his word until he says otherwise. I just don’t see how he plans for us to get there. 
 

Where we differ is I’m happy to speculate based on the last known facts. Will update my thinking as new facts become clear. 

[The College Dropout]

2 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

I think Europa is a target to aim for, it's not tied inherently to Howe's job. Eddie's been backed pretty extensively in the transfer market, the only reason he's not getting more is because the league rules won't allow it. This means if Eddie wants more players we'll have to sell in order to generate the funds. He's been reluctant to let players go previously but seems to be on board with it now. Unfortunately it seems the only players clubs want is the ones he wants to keep.

7th biggest squad cost. 
8th biggest wage. 
Target = 6th

 

Doesnt make sense to me. 
 

Eddie should never have been responsible for who we buy sell or give contracts too.  Won’t hold that against him. If he doesn’t like it he should leave.  

[TRon]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

I’m not advocating sacking anyone lol.  
 

Leicester, Everton, Chelsea, Forest, Newcastle, Villa all had PSR issues to deal with.  All these clubs traded before the deadline.  We were one of the last to act and we got the worst deal of them all - sold a useful player for a useless player  and our most valuable prospect in a position we needed enforcements. That was dealt badly - Forest fleeced us.  They got Anderson for 15m which they can recoup if needed. We didn’t even get the best offer for Minteh. Anyway the ppl involved have gone. But that still happened under PIFs watch - that doesnt absolve them of blame. They are the major shareholders. 
 

I’ve no reason to think Yasir has changed  his end goal. So I will stick with his word until he says otherwise. I just don’t see how he plans for us to get there. 
 

Where we differ is I’m happy to speculate based on the last known facts. Will update my thinking as new facts become clear. 

 

 

Didn't Leicester, Everton and Forest end up in a shitload of trouble for trying to bend the rules? The staff responsible for trading badly prior to this summer have gone as you acknowledge. Even the Yasir No 1 ambition has been downgraded. I'm not really sure what you are arguing at this point. Seems to be breaking rules and then risking a points hit if I'm reading that last post correctly.

[TRon]

2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

7th biggest squad cost. 
8th biggest wage. 
Target = 6th

 

Doesnt make sense to me. 
 

Eddie should never have been responsible for who we buy sell or give contracts too.  Won’t hold that against him. If he doesn’t like it he should leave.  

 

 

Did anyone at the club actually specify the target = 6th?

 

From what I understand the target is Europe and that can be achieved even with an 8th place finish if things go our way.

[The College Dropout]

Just now, TRon said:

 

 

Didn't Leicester, Everton and Forest end up in a shitload of trouble for trying to bend the rules? The staff responsible for trading badly prior to this summer have gone as you acknowledge. Even the Yasir No 1 ambition has been downgraded. I'm not really sure what you are arguing at this point. Seems to be breaking rules and then risking a points hit if I'm reading that last post correctly.

The season before. Hence the points deductions. For Leicester it was the season before that.  
 

We didn’t learn from their issues. As we agree - that was a failure and a like has been drawn. 
 

When did Yasir downgrade being number 1? The short term goal is Europe. The long term goal is #1 is he doubled down in the summer I believe.  
 

Im going to bow out here.  This discussion isn’t genuine.  Me expecting the leaders to manage our PSR position better = take a points hit to you. Ok man.  I’m out. 

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, TRon said:

 

 

Did anyone at the club actually specify the target = 6th?

 

From what I understand the target is Europe and that can be achieved even with an 8th place finish if things go our way.

To guarantee Europa league you must finish 5th or win FA Cup.  It’s likely 6th will do it. Anything less is unlikely which doesn’t make it a viable target imo. 

[The College Dropout]

I think 7th and 8th is a good target. But those spots don’t guarantee European football. Again maybe I’m being too black and white. But to me you target 7th or 8th and hope it brings European football and take what you get.  Or European football is the genuine target which requires top 6 or a cup to guarantee as a target.  

[TRon]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

The season before. Hence the points deductions. For Leicester it was the season before that.  
 

We didn’t learn from their issues. As we agree - that was a failure and a like has been drawn. 
 

When did Yasir downgrade being number 1? The short term goal is Europe. The long term goal is #1 is he doubled down in the summer I believe.  
 

Im going to bow out here.  This discussion isn’t genuine.  Me expecting the leaders to manage our PSR position better = take a points hit to you. Ok man.  I’m out. 

 

I'm sure Yasir would love to be No 1, and if we were allowed to spend our way there, we would do it. But we aren't because since the takeover the rules have been specifically amended to stop us spending on the squad. So our current target for this season is Europe, which isn't out of the question and is not as I understand it a firing offence if we don't achieve it. This is just speculation.

 

Your suggested solutions seem to be break the rules and take the punishment, points docked or whatever. I just don't think that's a sensible way forward. By all means criticise the ownership but you need to come up with something more realistic and concrete that we could seriously ask ourselves: why haven't they done that?

[Roids]

Iraola please 

[Jagten]

2 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

7th biggest squad cost. 
8th biggest wage. 
Target = 6th

 

Doesnt make sense to me. 
 

Eddie should never have been responsible for who we buy sell or give contracts too.  Won’t hold that against him. If he doesn’t like it he should leave.  

A 7-8th result is then average, given the investment, so the value add is probably nil. I think it's a lower bound for not considering us to have made bad decisions somewhere. 

[Jackie Broon]

2 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

7th biggest squad cost. 
8th biggest wage. 
Target = 6th

 

Doesnt make sense to me. 
 

Eddie should never have been responsible for who we buy sell or give contracts too.  Won’t hold that against him. If he doesn’t like it he should leave.  

 

I don't think it's as straightforward as 7th in squad cost should expect to finish 7th. There's always going to be one or two of the 6 that underperform and we have the advantage of not being in Europe.

 

Whilst our squad cost may be 7th, there is a big gap to 8th, we're not far off Liverpool and Spurs and there are currently 6 teams all with squad costs of at least £145m less than us above us in the table.

 

Also, unless our form really turns around, we're not finishing 7th this season.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by Jackie Broon

[Dr Jinx]

Fair to say more of ye have come around to my way of thinking.

 

I think we'll pick up another win, all forgiven and then it'll go like the last few games has and the same debate will just keep recycling.

 

That's what it is now - i think another coach could get more from the squad available, some of you don't.

 

We cannot count on having a good window for player recruitment, so it falls back on the current squad.