Eddie Howe

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

 Think even last week's result needs some context applying. Luto had just smashed Brighton 4-0 so had their tails right up. And how many other Newcastle teams would have withered away when their 4th went in? 
 

if you’d have said before the Villa game we'll get four points from the next two games, most fans would’ve been very happy with that. Does the fact the three of those four points came at Villa Park instead of at home as expected really change that?

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

Howe took a different route though. He didn't start off at a club in the first division that could realistically compete for honours.

 

What he achieved at Bournemouth was pretty extraordinary and ended up completely changing the trajectory of that club, and ultimately allowed them to be in a position to be bought by a wealthy owner and now likely become an established premier league club for good.

 

There's an argument that his achievements at Bournemouth can be held up in just as high regard. Are there any other examples of similar in recent times?

 

 

No, I’m with you - I’m not suggesting that Howe’s achievements are unimpressive.  I’m suggesting that Howe isn’t necessarily going to ‘peak’ in his 50s somehow.  There’s a good chance he’s at his managerial peak - but he hasn’t had the platform to win trophies yet.

 

His only full season with us so far saw him one game away from a trophy.  He might still win one this season yet. 

[KaKa]

Just now, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

 Think even last week's result needs some context applying. Luto had just smashed Brighton 4-0 so had their tails right up. And how many other Newcastle teams would have withered away when their 4th went in? 
 

if you’d have said before the Villa game we'll get four points from the next two games, most fans would’ve been very happy with that. Does the fact the three of those four points came at Villa Park instead of at home as expected really change that?

 

Luton have been playing really well for a while now.

 

They gave both Man City and Arsenal a hell of a time a couple of weeks back.

 

And like you said they just came off a huge high of battering Brighton.

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBottle said:

The debate surely wouldn’t be whether or not injuries and fatigue have contributed - they obviously have.  It would be odd if anyone thought having an entire XI missing wouldn’t have an impact on results.
 

It’s whether or not there is a level of accountability re manager, coaching staff, medical staff etc for the injuries (including recurring ones) and fatigue.  My view is that there is - some of it is plain old bad luck, some of it is on the coaching / medical staff.

 

Pope, Murphy, Burn etc - just sheer bad luck.  But some have rushed back, some have been misdiagnosed, some have not been rotated when they obviously could have been.  That’s not all on Howe, but he’s not immune from criticism on some of it. 

Myself and others have already pointed this out, but given two of the long term injuries have been dislocated shoulders, two of them back fractures, ligament damage for Botman and whatever the hell has gone on for Barnes. What exactly could the club staff have done differently to prevent those injuries? The subsequent overwork recurrent injuries you mention are less likely to happen, if the freak ones hadn’t happened first. The club staff can’t alter our fixture list

[SUPERTOON]

1 minute ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

Myself and others have already pointed this out, but given two of the long term injuries have been dislocated shoulders, two of them back fractures, ligament damage for Botman and whatever the hell has gone on for Barnes. What exactly could the club staff have done differently to prevent those injuries? The subsequent overwork recurrent injuries you mention are less likely to happen, if the freak ones hadn’t happened first. The club staff can’t alter our fixture list

The medical staff cleared Botman to play on for 2 games with a tear in his ACL didn’t they ? That’s definitely on them.

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

Myself and others have already pointed this out, but given two of the long term injuries have been dislocated shoulders, two of them back fractures, ligament damage for Botman and whatever the hell has gone on for Barnes. What exactly could the club staff have done differently to prevent those injuries? The subsequent overwork recurrent injuries you mention are less likely to happen, if the freak ones hadn’t happened first. The club staff can’t alter our fixture list

Barnes and Botman are both examples of failures by the medical staff tbh

[Irish Magpie]

6 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

The debate surely wouldn’t be whether or not injuries and fatigue have contributed - they obviously have. 

 

....some have not been rotated when they obviously could have been...

This is possibly the biggest flaw, if flaw it is. The loyalty shown to a winning 11 is set too high, in fact it would seem to the eventual detriment to the team.

 

We've seen often enough when changes were forced that the players came in were fresh and motivated to do well. The same would surely have applied to a player rested for a game - they come back fresher and keen to re-establish themselves as a mainstay.

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

Just now, SUPERTOON said:

The medical staff cleared Botman to play on for 2 games with a tear in his ACL didn’t they ? That’s definitely on them.

Absolutely, but they couldn’t have prevented the injury from occurring or ultimately change the recovery period for that kind of injury. If anything Botman is back significantly quicker than most in that regard.

 

And as for Barnes lots of others have pointed out how this kind of freak injury can be an absolute nightmare to treat and is more common in other sports. He was literally running with no one near him when it occurred. How is that down to club staff exactly?

[KaKa]

9 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

No, I’m with you - I’m not suggesting that Howe’s achievements are unimpressive.  I’m suggesting that Howe isn’t necessarily going to ‘peak’ in his 50s somehow.  There’s a good chance he’s at his managerial peak - but he hasn’t had the platform to win trophies yet.

 

His only full season with us so far saw him one game away from a trophy.  He might still win one this season yet. 

 

Yeah, this is really his first chance to show that he can compete for honours. I think the signs look really good. We tend to play really well against the better teams, with a squad that still needs work.

 

We have spent money, but a lot of it was to simply catch up, due to the lack of spending under Ashley. A lot of our improvement has been due to Howe turning around the fortunes of players we were stuck with that had under performed or been under utilised.

 

I want to see what he can do once the squad has been built up a bit more. I also think this year's experience managing things with European football will be great for him. It's his first time ever having to deal with that, and there will definitely be some major learnings from it.

 

 

Edited February 8 by KaKa

[Geogaddi]

49 minutes ago, Irish Magpie said:

I really don't recall but did we turn on Benitez so quickly after a poor run of results?

 

 

 

I don't remember Benitez getting much stick at all, I think Benitez could have finished rock bottom with zero points and still got no stick as he won the champions league 20 years ago and all the stick would have been directed at Ashley. Howe has received more stick than Benitez ever did which is absolute madness really considering he has done a far far better job for us than Benitez did.

 

 

Edited February 8 by Geogaddi

[The College Dropout]

Obviously different expectations.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I don't like to talk about 'expectations' too much because it's a silly football concept. But under Ashley we were happy to just not be a joke and survive as a club, it was a miracle Rafa ever came here at all. 

 

Now we've qualified for the CL people tend to overrate the resources the manager has and obviously want the good times to continue indefinitely... that's human nature. 

[SUPERTOON]

2 minutes ago, Geogaddi said:

I don't remember Benitez getting much stick at all, I think Benitez could have finished rock bottom with zero points and still got no stick as he won the champions league 20 years ago and all the stick would have been directed at Ashley. Howe has received more stick than Benitez ever did which is absolute madness really considering he has done a far far better job for us than Benitez did.

 

 

 

Can’t really compare tbh, completely different circumstances. 

[Pancrate1892]

1 hour ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

 When did this happen exactly or am I just having a major bout of amnesia. I remember daft individual errors and no doubt teams are better prepared to face us now, which made games more difficult (Durr!). But like I said, in early December we’d beaten Man Utd for the third consecutive time to go fifth, where still in the League Cup QF and had a chance of progressing from our CL group. Then the injuries really bit. Would I like to see us have a bit more tactical flexibility, sure. But I don’t think the system is a broken as some are making out.

Hes probably alluding to Brighton mainly (being 3-0 down) and the way we crumbled with a tiny bit pressure off Liverpool despite playing with 10 men, but your right it's a major exaggeration. 

 

For me it's not the injuries but it was the fact that before some players got match fit they got injured again and that cycle has continued, just as isak looks like he's fit and going to tear up defenses, he's out, now Wilson must come in without any match fitness and that's what is costing us. At least miggy, Murphy and Barnes can alternate the wide positions a bit with the latter coming on to build up his fitness 

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Injuries are absolutely massive, that is the reason for our problems. Don't forget that we have half a championship squad with a few top players in it. 

 

Criticise anyone you want how you want, but it's mental to try and assess anything about this season without a massive caveat saying 'everyone has been injured'. 

 

Unless you think we should be doing brilliantly with only one PL midfielder available, for example, I really don't know what this debate is about. 

 

Not to mention having the hardest fixtures imaginable and also being cheated out of the CL by a ref.

 

 

 

We don't man.

 

We have a top 8-9 squad in the league. Not one that can handle European football mind.

 

On ability alone we wouldn't swap squads with at least 11 in the division. Maybe 12 or 13.

[80]

1 hour ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

 Think even last week's result needs some context applying. Luto had just smashed Brighton 4-0 so had their tails right up. And how many other Newcastle teams would have withered away when their 4th went in? 

I think that's key for me, in terms of how I feel about the match. The players didn't crumble, they stepped up. I'd have had a very sick feeling in my stomach if we hadn't shown that spirit. They clearly want to fight for their club, their manager and themselves, so we should let them fight on and show what they can do.

57 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

No, I’m with you - I’m not suggesting that Howe’s achievements are unimpressive.  I’m suggesting that Howe isn’t necessarily going to ‘peak’ in his 50s somehow.  There’s a good chance he’s at his managerial peak - but he hasn’t had the platform to win trophies yet.

 

His only full season with us so far saw him one game away from a trophy.  He might still win one this season yet. 

Depending on exactly what you mean, though, I don't believe he's peaked yet. He's shown he's come on a lot from that spell out between us and Bournemouth little more than two years ago, so there's no reason to think he can't develop further, considering all the genuinely new stuff he's had to contend with this year through European involvement. I'm confident he'll have taken loads out of that.

25 minutes ago, Geogaddi said:

I don't remember Benitez getting much stick at all, I think Benitez could have finished rock bottom with zero points and still got no stick as he won the champions league 20 years ago and all the stick would have been directed at Ashley. Howe has received more stick than Benitez ever did which is absolute madness really considering he has done a far far better job for us than Benitez did.

 

 

 

I think we're overblowing how much stick he's received here, particularly from match going fans. Overall our support has been resolutely behind him, and makes a point of singing his name whenever we've been losing.

[Geogaddi]

The survey on The Athletic does thankfully show its a very small minority who are questioning him.

 

How satisfied are you with Howe’s performance this season?

 

Even given the team’s miserable winter — and a run of seven losses in 12 matches — Newcastle fans remain overwhelmingly pleased with Howe’s work. The head coach maintains immense credit from his first campaign and a half in charge, while there is sympathy expressed for the challenges faced this season.

With 86.8 per cent of respondents “very satisfied” and “satisfied” and a further 8.5 per cent “neither satisfied or unsatisfied”, it is clear that Newcastle supporters, like the club’s hierarchy, retain faith that Howe is the best person for the job.

[The College Dropout]

41 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I don't like to talk about 'expectations' too much because it's a silly football concept. But under Ashley we were happy to just not be a joke and survive as a club, it was a miracle Rafa ever came here at all. 

 

Now we've qualified for the CL people tend to overrate the resources the manager has and obviously want the good times to continue indefinitely... that's human nature. 

There are hard facts behind expectations. Our net spend is something like top 5 in Europe since the takeover. The squad cost is in the top 8 in the league. Our wage bill is top 8 in the league.

 

It's not made up out of thin air.

 

We are not a top team. That much is clear. But we've invested enough - smartly - to be a good team.

[Dr.Spaceman]

This just feels like the modern way labelling everything as being at either end of the scale with their being nowt in the middle. Let's be honest, EH has done some questionable things, but to actively want rid of him at this stage is utterly mental and not worth discussing at all.

[Shearergol]

2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

There are hard facts behind expectations. Our net spend is something like top 5 in Europe since the takeover. The squad cost is in the top 8 in the league. Our wage bill is top 8 in the league.

 

It's not made up out of thin air.

 

We are not a top team. That much is clear. But we've invested enough - smartly - to be a good team.

 

9th I think. 

 

But I think you're ignoring the fact that we've had to do this very quickly after years of neglect. You can't magic a functioning football club out of thin air regardless of what you throw at it money wise.

 

Still ignoring those injuries too I see.

[TRon]

1 hour ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Injuries are absolutely massive, that is the reason for our problems. Don't forget that we have half a championship squad with a few top players in it. 

 

Criticise anyone you want how you want, but it's mental to try and assess anything about this season without a massive caveat saying 'everyone has been injured'. 

 

Unless you think we should be doing brilliantly with only one PL midfielder available, for example, I really don't know what this debate is about. 

 

Not to mention having the hardest fixtures imaginable and also being cheated out of the CL by a ref.

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone can complain too much about results, because as you say, injuries have played a massive part. Only questionable things for me has been, given our high intensity football philosophy, were we not just compounding it by continuing to run the remaining fit players into the ground over 90+ mins game after game? I get that we had inexperience on the bench, but we have dropped a lot of points towards the end of games when players have been absolutely exhausted, I just think there must be a way to use the subs better if only to replace the tired ones and maintain running and energy levels.

 

There's also another argument that when you have a lot of key players missing, you can adapt your style by not pushing forward so relentlessly and maybe slowing the game down and waiting for space to open up. I thought it looked like we did that at Villa Park and it was the most in control over 90 mins I'd seen us for a while. Whether that was by design or just chance I don't know.

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, Shearergol said:

 

9th I think. 

 

But I think you're ignoring the fact that we've had to do this very quickly after years of neglect. You can't magic a functioning football club out of thin air regardless of what you throw at it money wise.

 

Still ignoring those injuries too I see.

Maybe so.

 

But we've built the squad pretty well. It has gaps but it has quality too.

 

I think the management of the injuries (by management and medical staff, and a lack of nous around the Tonali transfer) is a big factor in our mess. I don't want to litigate it again but players have been run into the ground, brought back too early, overloaded, poorly assessed etc. I think we handled Joelinton terribly. He kept coming back, picking up injuries until he got a season ender. Isak & Wilson, Gordon, Schar have all played injured at points. Sometimes you make your own bad luck.

[Shearergol]

4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Maybe so.

 

But we've built the squad pretty well. It has gaps but it has quality too.

 

I think the management of the injuries (by management and medical staff, and a lack of nous around the Tonali transfer) is a big factor in our mess. I don't want to litigate it again but players have been run into the ground, brought back too early, overloaded, poorly assessed etc. I think we handled Joelinton terribly. He kept coming back, picking up injuries until he got a season ender. Isak & Wilson, Gordon, Schar have all played injured at points. Sometimes you make your own bad luck.

 

Wilson being made of glass is a huge issue to us. We can't continue trying to nurse him through a season, it's far too much for Isak to cope with in this system.

 

Stick Tonali and Willock back in this squad and the Joelinton injuries don't happen. It's clear a few mistakes have been made (which club doesn't?) but I think people are far too quick to dismiss the freak injury situation we've seen. Add the demands of the CL's and expected cup runs in, we were always going to be worse off this season. We're still a very good team, we just have far too many key players out to show it every week.

 

 

Edited February 8 by Shearergol

[AyeDubbleYoo]

23 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

There are hard facts behind expectations. Our net spend is something like top 5 in Europe since the takeover. The squad cost is in the top 8 in the league. Our wage bill is top 8 in the league.

 

It's not made up out of thin air.

 

We are not a top team. That much is clear. But we've invested enough - smartly - to be a good team.

And we are a good team. We’re just not a team that can have all their best players injured and still qualify for the Champions League. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Maybe so.

 

But we've built the squad pretty well. It has gaps but it has quality too.

 

I think the management of the injuries (by management and medical staff, and a lack of nous around the Tonali transfer) is a big factor in our mess. I don't want to litigate it again but players have been run into the ground, brought back too early, overloaded, poorly assessed etc. I think we handled Joelinton terribly. He kept coming back, picking up injuries until he got a season ender. Isak & Wilson, Gordon, Schar have all played injured at points. Sometimes you make your own bad luck.

 

So we've got the 8th or 9th best squad in your view, we've got the 8th-9th largest wage bill, surely there shouldn't be much stick or even hints of criticism to a manager who has had that team around at least 9th pretty much all season, with 1/4 of the squad missing for a huge chunk of it.

 

 

Edited February 8 by Optimistic Nut