Eddie Howe

[500bhp]

11 hours ago, Optimistic Nut said:

 

Said it before but if the fans inside the ground start to visibly show discontent at Howe and this squad, after sitting and lapping up everything Ashley, Pardew, McClaren, Carver, Bruce, etc gave them, they can fuck off.McClaren

This is bullshit like. Nobody in my part of the stadium on Saturday was turning on Howe or the players. 

 

And not all 'the fans' were happy 'lapping up everything Ashley, Pardew, McClaren, Carver, Bruce, etc gave them'. You cant generalise about 52,000 fans in a stadium. 

 

Did you attend many matches over those 14 years? Did you not hear the Get out of our club songs? 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

The fans turn on everyone in different moments TBF, or at least some of us do. It's not like people weren't whinging during those previous eras. 

[Irish Magpie]

I really don't recall but did we turn on Benitez so quickly after a poor run of results?

 

 

Edited February 8 by Irish Magpie
spelling

[r0cafella]

Just now, Irish Magpie said:

I relly don't recall but did we turn on Benitez so quickly after a poor run of results?

Have we turned on Howe? Very small minority grumbling that’s it. 

[TheBrownBottle]

I still think that as a performance Villa away was the best this season (I don’t doubt that PSG at home will be the most memorable - assuming we don’t have an enjoyable afternoon at Wembley in May).  Proper Howe masterclass, absolutely out-thought Emery (who is a quality manager, of course).  That’s the sort of performance that confirms to me that Howe deserves time.

 

I don’t think the injuries issue leaves Howe immune from criticism - John Gibson raised the point on the Ronnie Gill podcast that Bielsa had a similar run at Leeds before getting hit with injuries - playing a high intensity, high press game.  I still don’t think it’s sustainable over a potentially 50-game season (allowing for a cup run and Europe), but this was Howe’s first European campaign and it’s not exactly easy to stop mid-season.  Next season will be when we’ll learn if lessons have been taken from this one.  This could still be the best season in most of our lifetimes - by this time next year Howe’s statue might be going up outside SJP (if he wins the FA Cup)

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Have we turned on Howe? Very small minority grumbling that’s it. 

No, definitely not.  If people think that a few dafties venting at SJP are ‘turning’ on the manager, then they haven’t seen it when it does.  

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Injuries are absolutely massive, that is the reason for our problems. Don't forget that we have half a championship squad with a few top players in it. 

 

Criticise anyone you want how you want, but it's mental to try and assess anything about this season without a massive caveat saying 'everyone has been injured'. 

 

Unless you think we should be doing brilliantly with only one PL midfielder available, for example, I really don't know what this debate is about. 

 

Not to mention having the hardest fixtures imaginable and also being cheated out of the CL by a ref.

 

 

Edited February 8 by AyeDubbleYoo

[Irish Magpie]

4 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Have we turned on Howe? Very small minority grumbling that’s it. 

 

Well a very small minority are generating a whole lot of discussion, which is all I was referencing; but I'll rephrase my initial question for you.

 

I really don't recall but did we (a very small minority) turn on (grumble about) Benitez so quickly after a poor run of results?

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Injuries are absolutely massive, that is the reason for our problems. Don't forget that we have half a championship squad with a few top players in it. 

 

Criticise anyone you want how you want, but it's mental to try and assess anything about this season without a massive caveat saying 'everyone has been injured'. 

 

Unless you think we should be brilliantly with only one PL midfielder available, for example, I really don't know what this debate is about. 

 

Not to mention having the hardest fixtures imaginable and also being cheated out of the CL by a ref.

 

 

 

The debate surely wouldn’t be whether or not injuries and fatigue have contributed - they obviously have.  It would be odd if anyone thought having an entire XI missing wouldn’t have an impact on results.
 

It’s whether or not there is a level of accountability re manager, coaching staff, medical staff etc for the injuries (including recurring ones) and fatigue.  My view is that there is - some of it is plain old bad luck, some of it is on the coaching / medical staff.

 

Pope, Murphy, Burn etc - just sheer bad luck.  But some have rushed back, some have been misdiagnosed, some have not been rotated when they obviously could have been.  That’s not all on Howe, but he’s not immune from criticism on some of it. 

[KaKa]

2 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I’m happy for him to be here, but 46 isn’t young for a manager tbf.  
 

By point of comparison to some big names, Alex Ferguson had won several Scottish titles and won the CWC with Aberdeen after beating Real Madrid in the final; Rafa Benitez, Jose Mourinho and Pep Guardiola had won the European Cup; Jurgen Klopp won the Bundesliga and lost a European Cup final; Arsene Wenger was at Arsenal having previously won the Ligue 1 title with Monaco; Brian Clough had won two league titles and two European Cups with Forest; Arrigo Sacchi had won two European Cups with his great Milan side;  Rinus Michels had won three European Cups with Ajax … and so on, and so forth.

 

Doesn’t mean Howe won’t be successful, but he isn’t a young manager.  

 

Howe took a different route though. He didn't start off at a club in the first division that could realistically compete for honours.

 

What he achieved at Bournemouth was pretty extraordinary and ended up completely changing the trajectory of that club, and ultimately allowed them to be in a position to be bought by a wealthy owner and now likely become an established premier league club for good.

 

There's an argument that his achievements at Bournemouth can be held up in just as high regard. Are there any other examples of similar in recent times?

 

 

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

 Think even last week's result needs some context applying. Luto had just smashed Brighton 4-0 so had their tails right up. And how many other Newcastle teams would have withered away when their 4th went in? 
 

if you’d have said before the Villa game we'll get four points from the next two games, most fans would’ve been very happy with that. Does the fact the three of those four points came at Villa Park instead of at home as expected really change that?

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

Howe took a different route though. He didn't start off at a club in the first division that could realistically compete for honours.

 

What he achieved at Bournemouth was pretty extraordinary and ended up completely changing the trajectory of that club, and ultimately allowed them to be in a position to be bought by a wealthy owner and now likely become an established premier league club for good.

 

There's an argument that his achievements at Bournemouth can be held up in just as high regard. Are there any other examples of similar in recent times?

 

 

No, I’m with you - I’m not suggesting that Howe’s achievements are unimpressive.  I’m suggesting that Howe isn’t necessarily going to ‘peak’ in his 50s somehow.  There’s a good chance he’s at his managerial peak - but he hasn’t had the platform to win trophies yet.

 

His only full season with us so far saw him one game away from a trophy.  He might still win one this season yet. 

[KaKa]

Just now, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

 Think even last week's result needs some context applying. Luto had just smashed Brighton 4-0 so had their tails right up. And how many other Newcastle teams would have withered away when their 4th went in? 
 

if you’d have said before the Villa game we'll get four points from the next two games, most fans would’ve been very happy with that. Does the fact the three of those four points came at Villa Park instead of at home as expected really change that?

 

Luton have been playing really well for a while now.

 

They gave both Man City and Arsenal a hell of a time a couple of weeks back.

 

And like you said they just came off a huge high of battering Brighton.

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBottle said:

The debate surely wouldn’t be whether or not injuries and fatigue have contributed - they obviously have.  It would be odd if anyone thought having an entire XI missing wouldn’t have an impact on results.
 

It’s whether or not there is a level of accountability re manager, coaching staff, medical staff etc for the injuries (including recurring ones) and fatigue.  My view is that there is - some of it is plain old bad luck, some of it is on the coaching / medical staff.

 

Pope, Murphy, Burn etc - just sheer bad luck.  But some have rushed back, some have been misdiagnosed, some have not been rotated when they obviously could have been.  That’s not all on Howe, but he’s not immune from criticism on some of it. 

Myself and others have already pointed this out, but given two of the long term injuries have been dislocated shoulders, two of them back fractures, ligament damage for Botman and whatever the hell has gone on for Barnes. What exactly could the club staff have done differently to prevent those injuries? The subsequent overwork recurrent injuries you mention are less likely to happen, if the freak ones hadn’t happened first. The club staff can’t alter our fixture list

[SUPERTOON]

1 minute ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

Myself and others have already pointed this out, but given two of the long term injuries have been dislocated shoulders, two of them back fractures, ligament damage for Botman and whatever the hell has gone on for Barnes. What exactly could the club staff have done differently to prevent those injuries? The subsequent overwork recurrent injuries you mention are less likely to happen, if the freak ones hadn’t happened first. The club staff can’t alter our fixture list

The medical staff cleared Botman to play on for 2 games with a tear in his ACL didn’t they ? That’s definitely on them.

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

Myself and others have already pointed this out, but given two of the long term injuries have been dislocated shoulders, two of them back fractures, ligament damage for Botman and whatever the hell has gone on for Barnes. What exactly could the club staff have done differently to prevent those injuries? The subsequent overwork recurrent injuries you mention are less likely to happen, if the freak ones hadn’t happened first. The club staff can’t alter our fixture list

Barnes and Botman are both examples of failures by the medical staff tbh

[Irish Magpie]

6 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

The debate surely wouldn’t be whether or not injuries and fatigue have contributed - they obviously have. 

 

....some have not been rotated when they obviously could have been...

This is possibly the biggest flaw, if flaw it is. The loyalty shown to a winning 11 is set too high, in fact it would seem to the eventual detriment to the team.

 

We've seen often enough when changes were forced that the players came in were fresh and motivated to do well. The same would surely have applied to a player rested for a game - they come back fresher and keen to re-establish themselves as a mainstay.

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

Just now, SUPERTOON said:

The medical staff cleared Botman to play on for 2 games with a tear in his ACL didn’t they ? That’s definitely on them.

Absolutely, but they couldn’t have prevented the injury from occurring or ultimately change the recovery period for that kind of injury. If anything Botman is back significantly quicker than most in that regard.

 

And as for Barnes lots of others have pointed out how this kind of freak injury can be an absolute nightmare to treat and is more common in other sports. He was literally running with no one near him when it occurred. How is that down to club staff exactly?

[KaKa]

9 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

No, I’m with you - I’m not suggesting that Howe’s achievements are unimpressive.  I’m suggesting that Howe isn’t necessarily going to ‘peak’ in his 50s somehow.  There’s a good chance he’s at his managerial peak - but he hasn’t had the platform to win trophies yet.

 

His only full season with us so far saw him one game away from a trophy.  He might still win one this season yet. 

 

Yeah, this is really his first chance to show that he can compete for honours. I think the signs look really good. We tend to play really well against the better teams, with a squad that still needs work.

 

We have spent money, but a lot of it was to simply catch up, due to the lack of spending under Ashley. A lot of our improvement has been due to Howe turning around the fortunes of players we were stuck with that had under performed or been under utilised.

 

I want to see what he can do once the squad has been built up a bit more. I also think this year's experience managing things with European football will be great for him. It's his first time ever having to deal with that, and there will definitely be some major learnings from it.

 

 

Edited February 8 by KaKa

[Geogaddi]

49 minutes ago, Irish Magpie said:

I really don't recall but did we turn on Benitez so quickly after a poor run of results?

 

 

 

I don't remember Benitez getting much stick at all, I think Benitez could have finished rock bottom with zero points and still got no stick as he won the champions league 20 years ago and all the stick would have been directed at Ashley. Howe has received more stick than Benitez ever did which is absolute madness really considering he has done a far far better job for us than Benitez did.

 

 

Edited February 8 by Geogaddi

[The College Dropout]

Obviously different expectations.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I don't like to talk about 'expectations' too much because it's a silly football concept. But under Ashley we were happy to just not be a joke and survive as a club, it was a miracle Rafa ever came here at all. 

 

Now we've qualified for the CL people tend to overrate the resources the manager has and obviously want the good times to continue indefinitely... that's human nature. 

[SUPERTOON]

2 minutes ago, Geogaddi said:

I don't remember Benitez getting much stick at all, I think Benitez could have finished rock bottom with zero points and still got no stick as he won the champions league 20 years ago and all the stick would have been directed at Ashley. Howe has received more stick than Benitez ever did which is absolute madness really considering he has done a far far better job for us than Benitez did.

 

 

 

Can’t really compare tbh, completely different circumstances. 

[Pancrate1892]

1 hour ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

 When did this happen exactly or am I just having a major bout of amnesia. I remember daft individual errors and no doubt teams are better prepared to face us now, which made games more difficult (Durr!). But like I said, in early December we’d beaten Man Utd for the third consecutive time to go fifth, where still in the League Cup QF and had a chance of progressing from our CL group. Then the injuries really bit. Would I like to see us have a bit more tactical flexibility, sure. But I don’t think the system is a broken as some are making out.

Hes probably alluding to Brighton mainly (being 3-0 down) and the way we crumbled with a tiny bit pressure off Liverpool despite playing with 10 men, but your right it's a major exaggeration. 

 

For me it's not the injuries but it was the fact that before some players got match fit they got injured again and that cycle has continued, just as isak looks like he's fit and going to tear up defenses, he's out, now Wilson must come in without any match fitness and that's what is costing us. At least miggy, Murphy and Barnes can alternate the wide positions a bit with the latter coming on to build up his fitness 

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Injuries are absolutely massive, that is the reason for our problems. Don't forget that we have half a championship squad with a few top players in it. 

 

Criticise anyone you want how you want, but it's mental to try and assess anything about this season without a massive caveat saying 'everyone has been injured'. 

 

Unless you think we should be doing brilliantly with only one PL midfielder available, for example, I really don't know what this debate is about. 

 

Not to mention having the hardest fixtures imaginable and also being cheated out of the CL by a ref.

 

 

 

We don't man.

 

We have a top 8-9 squad in the league. Not one that can handle European football mind.

 

On ability alone we wouldn't swap squads with at least 11 in the division. Maybe 12 or 13.