Eddie Howe

[Likelylad]

The PSG game. Isak was literally unable to move. Dead on his feet. Parkinson could've atleast closed down and chased the balls we were just lumping long.

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, Isaksbigrightfoot said:

This suggests that Eddie does in fact play his best 11 regardless of fatigue?

Yes - he does. He did it at Bournemouth and he's doing it here. That's his style.

 

1 hour ago, 80 said:

Personally, I'm pretty sure I posted here in early December that the whole month gonna be a write off, and I'm not known for being pessimistic. I thought it was blatantly obvious nothing would change - without a change in approach - given the nature of the injuries and density of the workload.

 

I wasn't in the habit of shouting about it because you're right, I didn't have inside knowledge of Howe's mind and the training data we had. But as it happens, using the info I did have, I was right. I don't especially blame Howe or anyone for how things have turned out either. It was a shit situation, and it's pretty clear he'd have had some fans all over him had he tried anything other than to win every single game.

 

All the same, if your car battery is flat, you don't generally want to turn the radio on and turn the engine over a few times just to make sure it won't start. Lush earlier pointed out we lost lots of games by a big margin with our first team. Well, exactly, so there wasn't much to lose through not fielding them, right?

 

According to Howe, a bigger gap between games would've meant improved performances thanks to rest and proper training. I believe him. Instead we got multiple spankings and extra wear and tear which has possibly set us further back with the likes of Joelinton.

Top post. I think me and @Erikse were saying if we were too tired to compete against Everton, we would lose pretty much every game thereafter until the fixture congestion eased up because there was zero indication that Eddie would rotate and recover players.

 

A lack of rotation is a feature of Eddie's management. Doing Plan A better is a feature of Eddie's management. 

 

I've said as such for a long time. Eddie doesn't like to rotate. Even with low expectations, he's rested players even less than I thought he would.

 

And as more comes out... he does seem to also play players' through injuries and knocks and returns them early. He's done it with an injury-prone player in their 30s he'll do it with anyone.

 

That's his style. Momentum. Heart. 100% effort and commitment. Don't take a backwards step.

 

 

Edited January 17 by The College Dropout

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

30 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

 

Me and others have been saying he should do this for months. I said it regarding the Man U league cup game 

 He should've rotated in the Man Utd league cup game? FFS you come out with some nonsense at times, but this takes the biscuit like. 
 

Reaquaint yourself with the team that started that match, after you’ve flagelated the hell out of yourself, come back into this thread and profusely apologise for the bollocks that you spout ??

[The College Dropout]

7 minutes ago, Likelylad said:

The PSG game. Isak was literally unable to move. Dead on his feet. Parkinson could've atleast closed down and chased the balls we were just lumping long.

Multiple games Isak has barely been able to move and offered nothing on the counter. He stayed on. Literally anyone capable of running would've been better. Happens again and again. Gordon seemed to play for an age semi-injured against Chelsea. I believe Schar started a game carrying an injury that initially ruled him out and was brought off after 15 minutes anyway.

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

 He should've rotated in the Man Utd league cup game? FFS you come out with some nonsense at times, but this takes the biscuit like. 
 

Reaquaint yourself with the team that started that match, after you’ve flagelated the hell out of yourself, come back into this thread and profusely apologise for the bollocks that you spout ??

I would've rotated more. And kept the lads out the squad or on the bench for 90 minutes.

 

I would've done the same against City & Chelsea (as I also showed).

 

I simply didn't/don't see how we could attack the League Cup, the Champions League, the league and FA Cup with our squad successfully. That's always been my opinion.

 

Now I admit - had we not conceded a fluke goal against Chelsea, I would have taken our current predicament gladly. But my overall thought is right - we have too little quality to compete on 4 fronts. As @80 said - you have to prioritise.

[The Prophet]

There are small windows where Howe could have potentially rotated, without bringing youth players into the equation. The second half at Sheffield United springs to mind.

 

There was nothing to stop him playing a youth team at Spurs or Luton, but it's guesswork to say it would have had a dramatically positive impact on performances.

[The College Dropout]

Stop with this "small windows" stuff.

 

The man doesn't like to rotate. There are plenty of examples of other managers rotating players in the league, away from home. Someone gave you the DeZerbi example against us.

 

You don't want to engage with ideas genuinely.

[The Prophet]

3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Stop with this "small windows" stuff.

 

The man doesn't like to rotate. There are plenty of examples of other managers rotating players in the league, away from home. Someone gave you the DeZerbi example against us.

 

You don't want to engage with ideas genuinely.

 

Debating is engaging with ideas, no?

 

Have you mistaken me with someone else? I wasn't discussing De Zerbi or Howe's wider management philosophy. I responded to a pretty narrow point.

[Lotus]

I have a real respect, admiration and genuine affection for Eddie Howe. 
 

I am, however a fan of NUFC. It’s the club that matters above all.

 

That some of you won’t even entertain a discussion is bordering on Ghoeber Xing.

[timeEd32]

I don't disagree about some additional rotation and/or earlier subs in some games. I don't think Bruno, Wilson, or Trippier should have come on in the Man United cup game up 3-0. Subs could have been made earlier against Sheffield United, Palace, Villa (though it was the first game), Burnley, and possibly Chelsea with little or no risk to the result.

 

But there's a couple problems looking at this in hindsight (even for those who were saying it for certain games):

 

1) There is a natural bias based on the results. It's easy now to say we should have rested against Luton or Spurs or Everton or Bournemouth because we came away with nothing. Do people wish we played kids against Arsenal, Chelsea, Man United, or Fulham? Maybe, but it's not being said as much because then 3 points are at risk.

 

The last week we looked anything like ourselves was Chelsea > PSG > Man United. 6 points and minutes away from a massive CL result. That week also destroyed what the players had left. Should we have given one of those up for the sake of December? Maybe in hindsight, though there weren't many complaints at the time.

 

I also would have rotated more for Luton or Forest, but which one do you pick? The home game that is in theory easier or the away game because it's got short rest on either side? The common answer now would likely be 'either' but that's strongly influenced by the outcomes we now know.

 

2) The second XI for at least two months has been woefully short of PL quality. Personally (and I thought this at the time) I think we should have effectively conceded Spurs away. We had two days of rest after Everton, where the final 10 minutes showed us the state of things, and we had Milan coming up days later. But I think if we had rested for that game we would have been on the end of a genuinely embarrassing scoreline. Like potential PL record scoreline given their quality and the memory of what we did to them in April. I'm certain some on Eddie's back now would have also been furious at that. It may have been the difference against Milan, but we don't know for sure.

 

 

Edited January 17 by timeEd32

[80]

19 minutes ago, Lotus said:

I have a real respect, admiration and genuine affection for Eddie Howe. 

I am, however a fan of NUFC. It’s the club that matters above all.

That some of you won’t even entertain a discussion is bordering on Ghoeber Xing.

Out of respect to my opponents, this is harsh

 

 

Edited January 17 by 80

[Myleftboot]

50 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Yes - he does. He did it at Bournemouth and he's doing it here. That's his style.

 

Top post. I think me and @Erikse were saying if we were too tired to compete against Everton, we would lose pretty much every game thereafter until the fixture congestion eased up because there was zero indication that Eddie would rotate and recover players.

 

A lack of rotation is a feature of Eddie's management. Doing Plan A better is a feature of Eddie's management. 

 

I've said as such for a long time. Eddie doesn't like to rotate. Even with low expectations, he's rested players even less than I thought he would.

 

And as more comes out... he does seem to also play players' through injuries and knocks and returns them early. He's done it with an injury-prone player in their 30s he'll do it with anyone.

 

That's his style. Momentum. Heart. 100% effort and commitment. Don't take a backwards step.

 

 

 

He mentioned he likes consistency. So probably the formation we play,the intensity we use and the first 11 to be same.

[Guest]

I'm sure the list of managers who have Howe's ability, can rotate the squad while also ironing out all of his tactical weaknesses are queuing up.

[The College Dropout]

IMO you try to rotate in 3 scenarios:

(1) where you think you will win comfortably - Crystal Palace (H) for example. But for us.. these games are rare. Didn't take those few occasions. 

(2) when you are up by a wide margin early - this is the least beneficial type of resting IMO but Howe doesn't do this much either - Sheff U away for example.

(3) On a congested fixture list, you just pick 1 to rotate - 4 games in 14 days, pick 1 to rotate players. We didn't do that either.

 

All the teams that compete in the CL group stages need to rotate. The elite teams can rest players in 1 or 2 CL games. The rest have to rest players in domestic cup competitions and the league IMO. When it was easier to do it, Howe didn't. When it was harder to do it, Howe didn't do it.

 

If not for Burn's injury - we probably don't see much of Livra. The entire approach to rotation is wrong IMO. And there's history - here and at Bournemouth. So I can't cut Eddie as much slack as others are willing. There's too much evidence that he's a co-conspirator in this crisis.

 

And tbh - I think Klopp is similar (but more willing to rotate still). Hence why Liverpool have feast seasons and some really ropey ones. I hope this is a ropey one for Howe. But the rotation, fatigue thing is an area of weakness. Not just something that has happened through bad luck alone.

 

4 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

I'm sure the list of managers who have Howe's ability, can rotate the squad while also ironing out all of his tactical weaknesses are queuing up.

Yes finally we acknowledge he is a fallible human being who can make bad decisions. You are right - he is not perfect. Nobody else in this conversation is suggesting he's replaced though.

[80]

21 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

I don't disagree about some additional rotation and/or earlier subs in some games. I don't think Bruno, Wilson, or Trippier should have come on in the Man United cup game up 3-0. Subs could have been made earlier against Sheffield United, Palace, Villa (though it was the first game), Burnley, and possibly Chelsea with little or no risk to the result.

 

But there's a couple problems looking at this in hindsight (even for those who were saying it for certain games):

 

1) There is a natural bias based on the results. It's easy now to say we should have rested against Luton or Spurs or Everton or Bournemouth because we came away with nothing. Do people wish we played kids against Arsenal, Chelsea, Man United, or Fulham? Maybe, but it's not being said as much because then 3 points are at risk.

 

The last week we looked anything like ourselves was Chelsea > PSG > Man United. 6 points and minutes away from a massive CL result. That week also destroyed what the players had left. Should we have given one of those up for the sake of December? Maybe in hindsight, though there weren't many complaints at the time.

 

I also would have rotated more for Luton or Forest, but which one do you pick? The home game that is in theory easier or the away game because it's got short rest on either side? The common answer now would likely be 'either' but that's strongly influenced by the outcomes we now know.

 

2) The second XI for at least two months has been woefully short of PL quality. Personally (and I thought this at the time) I think we should have effectively conceded Spurs away. We had two days of rest after Everton, where the final 10 minutes showed us the state of things, and we had Milan coming up days later. But I think if we had rested for that game we would have been on the end of a genuinely embarrassing scoreline. Like potential PL record scoreline given their quality and the memory of what we did to them in April. I'm certain some on Eddie's back now would have also been furious at that. It may have been the difference against Milan, but we don't know for sure.

 

 

 

On your first point, it's fair comment about only talking about the defeats, but I think where we got our wins kind of proves my point - the Chelsea-PSG-Man U run came directly after an international break which had followed the capitulation at Bournemouth.

 

Certainly, I was worried after the Man United match as I knew what they'd all given was epic. And in terms of resting against big teams, well, I got a fair bit of stick on here last season when I was arguing that we should be prepared to accept fielding reserves in the Champions' League in order to prioritise a tricky away game against Brentford or Brighton this season, on the grounds that the league sustains the club's future. So I have form on that. The exact details are up for debate, but it's fair to say I didn't expect to play the same eleven players over and over again this season when I was saying that, though.

[Erikse]

3 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

Yes. Lose today. So that we may or may not win the next one. 
 

We will deliberately lose the battle and then we might win the war. Fuck knows. 

 

We're experiencing fatigue in a tight schedule, but let's try to maximize the next couple of games anyways. We may or may not win those, and then we will look like a Championship side for the next 5 games after that, gradually becoming worse and worse.

 

Does this sound better?

[Ginola14]

he's been ridiculously unlucky this season for so many reasons 

 

taking just the PSG and Chlesea away games 

 

had that awful penalty decision against PSG not been given we'd almost certainly still be in CL/Europe (the 97th minute ffs)

 

had Trippier not made that mistake in stoppage time at Chelsea  we'd have one foot in a LC final

 

(or had the ref sent of Caicedo at least, or penalties had gone the other way)

 

don't think anyone would be questioning Howe had those finest of margins gone the other way 

 

not to mention all the fucking freak injuries this season and Tonali suspension which has limited him so much in terms of team selection 

 

[MrRaspberryJam]

5 minutes ago, Ginola14 said:

he's been ridiculously unlucky this season for so many reasons 

 

taking just the PSG and Chlesea away games 

 

had that awful penalty decision against PSG not been given we'd almost certainly still be in CL/Europe (the 97th minute ffs)

 

had Trippier not made that mistake in stoppage time at Chelsea  we'd have one foot in a LC final

 

(or had the ref sent of Caicedo at least, or penalties had gone the other way)

 

don't think anyone would be questioning Howe had those finest of margins gone the other way 

 

not to mention all the fucking freak injuries this season and Tonali suspension which has limited him so much in terms of team selection 

 

Amen brother. 

[80]

2 minutes ago, Ginola14 said:

he's been ridiculously unlucky this season for so many reasons 

 

taking just the PSG and Chlesea away games 

 

had that awful penalty decision against PSG not been given we'd almost certainly still be in CL/Europe (the 97th minute ffs)

 

had Trippier not made that mistake in stoppage time at Chelsea  we'd have one foot in a LC final

 

(or had the ref sent of Caicedo at least, or penalties had gone the other way)

 

don't think anyone would be questioning Howe had those finest of margins gone the other way 

 

not to mention all the fucking freak injuries this season and Tonali suspension which has limited him so much in terms of team selection 

 

Totally. Although, as I've said before, we did have fantastic luck with injuries last season, also - they were always spread around the positions, avoiding vital players, with players timing their recoveries perfectly to cover others e.g. Wilson and Isak, Almiron and Murphy. That could've been a very different season too.

[Lush Vlad]

7 minutes ago, Erikse said:

 

We're experiencing fatigue in a tight schedule, but let's try to maximize the next couple of games anyways. We may or may not win those, and then we will look like a Championship side for the next 5 games after that, gradually becoming worse and worse.

 

Does this sound better?

Chuck the reserves to the wolves. That will more than likely result in a humiliating defeat. Bringing more pressure on the coaching team, fucking off a load of fans who have paid their money in the process for practically forfeiting a game. Then killing any chance at momentum and crushing the confidence of these young players at the same time.  All So that we might or might not get a result in the next game or two. Instead of trying to win the next one in front of you. 
 

Seems a sensible call. I’m shocked that Howe didn’t go for that, TBH. 

[MrRaspberryJam]

7 minutes ago, 80 said:

Totally. Although, as I've said before, we did have fantastic luck with injuries last season, also - they were always spread around the positions, avoiding vital players, with players timing their recoveries perfectly to cover others e.g. Wilson and Isak, Almiron and Murphy. That could've been a very different season too.

not playing in the CL probably had a big say in that. Guess we’ll find out next season

[The Prophet]

15 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

IMO you try to rotate in 3 scenarios:

(1) where you think you will win comfortably - Crystal Palace (H) for example. But for us.. these games are rare. Didn't take those few occasions. 

(2) when you are up by a wide margin early - this is the least beneficial type of resting IMO but Howe doesn't do this much either - Sheff U away for example.

(3) On a congested fixture list, you just pick 1 to rotate - 4 games in 14 days, pick 1 to rotate players. We didn't do that either.

 

All the teams that compete in the CL group stages need to rotate. The elite teams can rest players in 1 or 2 CL games. The rest have to rest players in domestic cup competitions and the league IMO. When it was easier to do it, Howe didn't. When it was harder to do it, Howe didn't do it.

 

If not for Burn's injury - we probably don't see much of Livra. The entire approach to rotation is wrong IMO. And there's history - here and at Bournemouth. So I can't cut Eddie as much slack as others are willing. There's too much evidence that he's a co-conspirator in this crisis.

 

And tbh - I think Klopp is similar (but more willing to rotate still). Hence why Liverpool have feast seasons and some really ropey ones. I hope this is a ropey one for Howe. But the rotation, fatigue thing is an area of weakness. Not just something that has happened through bad luck alone.

 

Yes finally we acknowledge he is a fallible human being who can make bad decisions. You are right - he is not perfect. Nobody else in this conversation is suggesting he's replaced though.

 

A lot of fair points there.

 

I'd be interested to read the evidence highlighting his contribution to this particular injury crisis.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

IMO you try to rotate in 3 scenarios:

(1) where you think you will win comfortably - Crystal Palace (H) for example. But for us.. these games are rare. Didn't take those few occasions. 

(2) when you are up by a wide margin early - this is the least beneficial type of resting IMO but Howe doesn't do this much either - Sheff U away for example.

(3) On a congested fixture list, you just pick 1 to rotate - 4 games in 14 days, pick 1 to rotate players. We didn't do that either.

 

All the teams that compete in the CL group stages need to rotate. The elite teams can rest players in 1 or 2 CL games. The rest have to rest players in domestic cup competitions and the league IMO. When it was easier to do it, Howe didn't. When it was harder to do it, Howe didn't do it.

 

If not for Burn's injury - we probably don't see much of Livra. The entire approach to rotation is wrong IMO. And there's history - here and at Bournemouth. So I can't cut Eddie as much slack as others are willing. There's too much evidence that he's a co-conspirator in this crisis.

 

And tbh - I think Klopp is similar (but more willing to rotate still). Hence why Liverpool have feast seasons and some really ropey ones. I hope this is a ropey one for Howe. But the rotation, fatigue thing is an area of weakness. Not just something that has happened through bad luck alone.

 

Yes finally we acknowledge he is a fallible human being who can make bad decisions. You are right - he is not perfect. Nobody else in this conversation is suggesting he's replaced though.

 

I don't get why some people (including yourself) are so boringly and vigorously focussed on the negatives though. 

 

 

Edited January 17 by Optimistic Nut

[MrRaspberryJam]

Just now, Optimistic Nut said:

 

I don't get why some people (including yourself) or so boringly and vigorously focussed on the negatives though. 

He should have given you the good news first

[Lotus]

5 hours ago, 80 said:

Out of respect to my opponents, this is harsh

 

 

 

I agree. That’s a step too far ?

I apologise!