TheBrownBottle Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 55 minutes ago, brummie said: It certainly does. *wink* Well, for most clubs anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 hour ago, joeyt said: Both clubs have won European trophies before last night tbf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sempiternal Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 13 hours ago, Kimbo said: You need to beat top clubs to win the league cup, surely it has more bragging rights. European cups have much more prestige to me, and PL teams largely treat league cups like they don’t matter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 34 minutes ago, Sempiternal said: European cups have much more prestige to me, and PL teams largely treat league cups like they don’t matter But the conference has zero prestige to big clubs. If the conference league is really a prestigious major trophy then really West Ham have had a better season than us. I wouldn’t swap a top 4 place for conference league personally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sempiternal Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Just now, Kimbo said: But the conference has zero prestige to big clubs. If the conference league is really a prestigious major trophy then really West Ham have had a better season than us. I wouldn’t swap a top 4 place for conference league personally. Roma not a big club? I’d class them as one personally. Big teams usually send out reserves in the league cup. Trophies >>> everything. Winning is a habit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sempiternal Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Spurs took that Top 4 >> trophy attitude and it’s not worked out at all well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, Sempiternal said: Roma not a big club? I’d class them as one personally. Big teams usually send out reserves in the league cup. Trophies >>> everything. Winning is a habit. Roma are big, though not at their peak these days. This year it’s been won by West Ham, a club that has never finished in the top 2 in domestic football in its entire history. How would you feel if a 4th tier European competition was created? Or a 5th? At what tier would they stop being a major prestigious trophies? In theory we could get the whole league playing some form of European competition. Edited June 9, 2023 by Kimbo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 4 minutes ago, Sempiternal said: Spurs took that Top 4 >> trophy attitude and it’s not worked out at all well. You would swap seasons with West Ham? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 A third European competition is hardly ridiculous though. We had the cup winners cup for decades. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 5 minutes ago, Kimbo said: But the conference has zero prestige to big clubs. If the conference league is really a prestigious major trophy then really West Ham have had a better season than us. I wouldn’t swap a top 4 place for conference league personally. You mean it has zero prestige to a dozen or so clubs (of all the millions of clubs in Europe) whose target - realistically or otherwise - is to reach the latter stages of the Champions League. Like I was saying last night, defining the Conference League by how it compares with a far more prestigious competition is such a grim way to view it, imo. Not everything is about the tedium of the Champions League's annual rinse and repeat. A competition should be defined by its own competitors. I swear most of the derision is subconsciously borne out of that fucking awful name which is deliberately pitched to sound subservient to UEFA's cash cow tournies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big River Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 not sure I'd be classing the Conference league as a "major" European trophy, like the commentary team were relentlessly banging on about last night. but it's still a trophy at the end of the day, probably on par or slightly beneath the League Cup. nice to see them celebrating the win tbh. a refreshing change from the same old teams not giving a fuck when they win something! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sempiternal Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 8 minutes ago, Kimbo said: You would swap seasons with West Ham? Loaded question imo, because the clubs are in two different states, but the top 4 thing is just a modern creation, classing it as trophy. West ham certainly wouldn’t swap their season for ours. What happens if you aim for top 4, bomb out of every comp, Chelsea, spurs, arsenal to a degree did this. Now spurs have no Europe, no trophies. I’m glad we finished in the CL, but on first consideration I’d take finishing in the top 10 and winning either the league cup or the conf 100 percent. No one cares that we finished in the top 4 in the 90s, but I do care we haven’t won a trophy for donkeys years Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sempiternal Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 People were saying this same stuff about the EL. I don’t think Sevilla fans would agree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 PS if we're saying that UEFA's third competition isn't a major trophy then we are genuinely downgrading our own historic achievements. The Fairs Cup's one city rule probably meant that competition had even fewer 'big' teams in it than today's Vana-euro-rama, even in the context of 1969. Ujpest Doza certainly hadn't pulled up any trees in Europe by the time they faced us, and never achieved anything notable thereafter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 minute ago, Yorkie said: PS if we're saying that UEFA's third competition isn't a major trophy then we are genuinely downgrading our own historic achievements. The Fairs Cup's one city rule probably meant that competition had even fewer 'big' teams in it than today's Vana-euro-rama, even in the context of 1969. Ujpest Doza certainly hadn't pulled up any trees in Europe by the time they faced us, and never achieved anything notable thereafter. They did get to the European Cup semis in 1974 tbf. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sempiternal Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 In a very simplified way, west ham fans are going to remember that for the rest of their lives, the noise when the goal went in. If they finish top 4 they won’t. That’s mainly how i see it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Just now, ponsaelius said: They did get to the European Cup semis in 1974 tbf. Fair enough, didn't spot that - what they did after 1969 is probably less relevant (to my point) than what they did before. The point I'm making is that a third competition isn't unusual and, if anything, today's is arguably comprised of more 'big' clubs (however you want to define that) than the iterations of yesteryear were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sempiternal said: Loaded question imo, because the clubs are in two different states, but the top 4 thing is just a modern creation, classing it as trophy. West ham certainly wouldn’t swap their season for ours. What happens if you aim for top 4, bomb out of every comp, Chelsea, spurs, arsenal to a degree did this. Now spurs have no Europe, no trophies. I’m glad we finished in the CL, but on first consideration I’d take finishing in the top 10 and winning either the league cup or the conf 100 percent. No one cares that we finished in the top 4 in the 90s, but I do care we haven’t won a trophy for donkeys years I agree that top 4 isn’t really that special, I just wouldn’t swap it for any old trophy. Edited June 8, 2023 by Kimbo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Yorkie said: Fair enough, didn't spot that - what they did after 1969 is probably less relevant (to my point) than what they did before. The point I'm making is that a third competition isn't unusual and, if anything, today's is arguably comprised of more 'big' clubs (however you want to define that) than the iterations of yesteryear were. Yeah it's a fair point. Just probably worth noting that Hungary, while not in their 50s heyday, were a big footballing country (twice WC quarter finalists in the 60s) with a stronger domestic game than they have now. And within that context Ujpest are the second biggest club after Ferencvaros - so it wasn't like we were playing a scrub side that it might appear today. Edited June 8, 2023 by ponsaelius Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
number37 Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 hour ago, Yorkie said: You mean it has zero prestige to a dozen or so clubs (of all the millions of clubs in Europe) whose target - realistically or otherwise - is to reach the latter stages of the Champions League. Like I was saying last night, defining the Conference League by how it compares with a far more prestigious competition is such a grim way to view it, imo. Not everything is about the tedium of the Champions League's annual rinse and repeat. A competition should be defined by its own competitors. I swear most of the derision is subconsciously borne out of that fucking awful name which is deliberately pitched to sound subservient to UEFA's cash cow tournies. You're right and I think it's also important to note that the 'big' clubs aren't in the Conference League so obviously they're not going to think it has any prestige. It's not like Arsenal or whoever not caring about the League Cup and so they just field their kids and reserves, they're not prioritising their Champions League campaign over Conference League because they're not in the latter. Maybe prestige isn't the way to look at it - perhaps it's the old "you can only beat what's in front of you" approach. No one will say the FA Vase is more prestigious than the FA Cup but try telling Whitley Bay their achievements are meaningless because Manchester United has low regard for that particular tournament, not that they're eligible anyway. I'm sure Whitley Bay would love a crack at the Champions League but I'm also sure they rather enjoyed their glory at Wembley despite the fact it's a lesser competition and not worth the time of the Sky teams. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 15 minutes ago, number37 said: You're right and I think it's also important to note that the 'big' clubs aren't in the Conference League so obviously they're not going to think it has any prestige. It's not like Arsenal or whoever not caring about the League Cup and so they just field their kids and reserves, they're not prioritising their Champions League campaign over Conference League because they're not in the latter. Maybe prestige isn't the way to look at it - perhaps it's the old "you can only beat what's in front of you" approach. No one will say the FA Vase is more prestigious than the FA Cup but try telling Whitley Bay their achievements are meaningless because Manchester United has low regard for that particular tournament, not that they're eligible anyway. I'm sure Whitley Bay would love a crack at the Champions League but I'm also sure they rather enjoyed their glory at Wembley despite the fact it's a lesser competition and not worth the time of the Sky teams. Absolutely, that's totally what I'm getting at when I say you have to define a competition by those competing in it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 1 hour ago, ponsaelius said: Yeah it's a fair point. Just probably worth noting that Hungary, while not in their 50s heyday, were a big footballing country (twice WC quarter finalists in the 60s) with a stronger domestic game than they have now. And within that context Ujpest are the second biggest club after Ferencvaros - so it wasn't like we were playing a scrub side that it might appear today. Don Revie apparently said Ujpest were one of the best teams his Leeds had played according to dad. Ujpest knocked them out of the Fairs Cup the year we won it. Leeds went on to win the league, so they mustn't have been shabby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqen Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 3 hours ago, Sempiternal said: Loaded question imo, because the clubs are in two different states, but the top 4 thing is just a modern creation, classing it as trophy. West ham certainly wouldn’t swap their season for ours. What happens if you aim for top 4, bomb out of every comp, Chelsea, spurs, arsenal to a degree did this. Now spurs have no Europe, no trophies. I’m glad we finished in the CL, but on first consideration I’d take finishing in the top 10 and winning either the league cup or the conf 100 percent. No one cares that we finished in the top 4 in the 90s, but I do care we haven’t won a trophy for donkeys years When it's been so long without a trophy for sides like ourselves or West Ham then it's pretty clear what the better season is. Or at least the prize is better. That said we are one of the few clubs outside the top 6 that have the potential to break it. West Ham finishing in the top 4 aren't in the same position to build on it like we will be able to. So I guess for the 'project' top 4 is better than it can accelerate our growth and lead to competing for trophies more regularly quicker. I think what we've done has been more impressive and difficult too. But aye you'd still take a trophy over it really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) The Fairs Cup wasn't weak at all really. The one club per city and qualification rules were a bit all over the place but it wasn't too similar to the later UEFA Cup and the line up was definitely far stronger than the current edition of the Conference League. For example in the year we were in there was: 3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th in England - Liverpool, Leeds, Chelsea, Newcastle 2-4th in Serie A - Napoli, Juve and Fiorentina 2nd, 4th and 6th in France - Nice, Marseille, Metz 4-7th in Spain - Valencia, Zaragoza, Atletico Madrid and Athletic Bilbao 2nd in Holland - Feyenoord 2nd in Portugal - Sporting 3rd in Yugoslavia - Dinamo Zagreb 2nd, 3rd and 5th in Scotland - Rangers, Hibs, and Aberdeen 3rd and 4th in Belgium - Liege and Waregem You can continue through the Eastern European leagues which were much stronger at the time where big sides were entered. If you were to go off current European format many of these clubs would have been playing in the European Cup instead. Indeed it is arguable that the Fairs Cup and subsequent UEFA cup often had more depth, on paper, than the European Cup. Edited June 8, 2023 by ponsaelius Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Ujpest had a team full of internationals, did the domestic double that year and the year after, got to 2 European Cup QF and a SF. They were a top side. As for West Ham, you can only win who you are put up against and it’s a European trophy. Fair play, rotten name for it. Sounds like it’s for a semi pro league, I mean, Conference, really? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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