Víctor Muñoz: Signs For Liverpool

[Kanj]

2 minutes ago, oldtype said:

 

I do often make the mistake of assuming that others in the professional services industry actually take their ethical obligations seriously. But regardless, no we shouldn't be in the business of effectively bribing agents to act against their client's interest.

Genuinely lost how you consider that a bribe. Our problem is not that at all - what Minhosa is trying to say is that if we want to sign good talent we need to behave like an elite recruitment club, we need to understand when agent fees are a cost of control. You either pay for priority and certainty, or you become the stalking horse that helps the agent extract a better offer from Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, City, Man Utd etc. it’s that simple. It has nothing to do with greasing palms. 
 

if you  want to talk regulation then let’s have it. If FIFA’s attempted fee caps are largely unenforceable in the biggest European markets, then we are competing in a largely free market for agent services. Refusing to be competitive on agent economics does not eliminate agent influence, it just creates risk to push the player toward a competing club.

[Minhosa]

Just now, oldtype said:

 

Yes, because two of those players we bought when they were developing prospects that weren't drawing interest from any cartel clubs (Hall we literally bought from one). Pope was never good enough for any of those clubs to be interested.

 

I don't even recall how much interest there was in Bruno out there when he moved but the fact that we really need to grasp at straws to find even one or two examples of us (or any other non-cartel club for that matter) beating a cartel club to a signing tells you how hard it is.

He could’ve signed for Arsenal but he said no fuck that……..

 

Botman another example.

[r0cafella]

Just now, oldtype said:

 

Yes, because two of those players we bought when they were developing prospects that weren't drawing interest from any cartel clubs (Hall we literally bought from one). Pope was never good enough for any of those clubs to be interested.

 

I don't even recall how much interest there was in Bruno out there when he moved but the fact that we really need to grasp at straws to find even one or two examples of us (or any other non-cartel club for that matter) beating a cartel club to a signing tells you how hard it is.

Nobody made Lyon an offer for Bruno. We didn't beat anyone. 

 

Coming out of COVID was a great time as cartel clubs had revenue drops during that period which slowed them down. 

[Weezertron]

Ah man. That's shit.

 

So we've signed a no.2 goalkeeper so far...

[Theregulars]

Just now, oldtype said:

 

I mean, it's June. It sucks that this happened but it's not as if we're in August and bidding 55m for Yoan Wissa again.

To me still a setback to tell journalists you’re near a player to be seemingly gazumped by a bigger and more competent club again, given all the times that exact thing happened last summer. 

[Kid Icarus]

Just now, r0cafella said:

Who did we get before they had time to act? Isak was linked with arsenal for years before we got him. They obviously passed particularly after that last season in Spain. 

Bruno was a signing we went for in January that Arsenal had earmarked for the summer, likewise they and others had Isak on their radar. Tonali stock was higher than us and we got it done quickly.

 

A better way of thinking of it though I think is asking yourself whether you think we'd have the speed to get those same deals done now. I don't think we would, I also do get the feeling that we don't get that slack now and these clubs have acted accordingly to make it much, much harder.

[r0cafella]

Just now, Minhosa said:

He could’ve signed for Arsenal but he said no fuck that……..

 

Botman another example.

Botman - Milan couldn't pay the fee so he ended up here. If you class that as beating them then fair enough but this isn't Milan of the 90's either.  

[oldtype]

Just now, Kanj said:

Genuinely lost how you consider that a bribe. Our problem is not that at all - what Minhosa is trying to say is that if we want to sign good talent we need to behave like an elite recruitment club, we need to understand when agent fees are a cost of control. You either pay for priority and certainty, or you become the stalking horse that helps the agent extract a better offer from Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, City, Man Utd etc. it’s that simple. It has nothing to do with greasing palms. 
 

if you  want to talk regulation then let’s have it. If FIFA’s attempted fee caps are largely unenforceable in the biggest European markets, then we are competing in a largely free market for agent services. Refusing to be competitive on agent economics does not eliminate agent influence, it just creates risk to push the player toward a competing club.

 

I'm all for offering aggressive agent fees, I just don't think we could realistically offer an agent enough money where they'd be willing to conceal interest from a bigger club when their client asks them to canvass the market. I know agents are shady fuckers and all, but bros need some plausible deniability.

[Minhosa]

Just now, Kanj said:

Genuinely lost how you consider that a bribe. Our problem is not that at all - what Minhosa is trying to say is that if we want to sign good talent we need to behave like an elite recruitment club, we need to understand when agent fees are a cost of control. You either pay for priority and certainty, or you become the stalking horse that helps the agent extract a better offer from Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, City, Man Utd etc. it’s that simple. It has nothing to do with greasing palms. 
 

if you  want to talk regulation then let’s have it. If FIFA’s attempted fee caps are largely unenforceable in the biggest European markets, then we are competing in a largely free market for agent services. Refusing to be competitive on agent economics does not eliminate agent influence, it just creates risk to push the player toward a competing club.

Yep. If we move quickly, agree a slightly over the top fee with the selling club and incentivise the agent the deal gets done. This has to be the strategy going forward otherwise we’re just going to get constantly embarrassed as we’re being used every fucking time. 

[Viana]

I'm old enough to remember when the world said Liverpool had won the transfer window by signing Wirtz and Isak. These things are always a gamble, the only difference is how much of a gamble it is.

 

Scouting, data, etc, are all just an attempt to mitigate the level of risk. 

 

I'm obviously disappointed he's going there, but that's because he seemed like a good fit for Howe's style of play. Whether he'll be a good fit for them I don't know. There's a case to be made here that us haggling is the club being poor negotiators, but it should also be a noted consequence of PSR. We're clearly being very strict with what and how we pay for players. 

 

Liverpool don't have that inhibition. They can also offer him great wages. 

[oldtype]

Just now, r0cafella said:

Botman - Milan couldn't pay the fee so he ended up here. If you class that as beating them then fair enough but this isn't Milan of the 90's either.  

 

Even right now I think we are a bigger draw than Milan. It's mostly just the top six and Bayern/Barcelona/PSG/Madrid that we have no hope against.

[r0cafella]

Just now, Kid Icarus said:

Bruno was a signing we went for in January that Arsenal had earmarked for the summer, likewise they and others had Isak on their radar. Tonali stock was higher than us and we got it done quickly.

 

A better way of thinking of it though I think is asking yourself whether you think we'd have the speed to get those same deals done now. I don't think we would, I also do get the feeling that we don't get that slack now and these clubs have acted accordingly to make it much, much harder.

As mentioned Ki it's not a matter of speed anymore, they have revenue hits at the time we bought Bruno those constraints are gone now. 

 

For the nonsense talk of PIF to be a thing they had to be all in, instead they went for some Pacifying approach to not upset the cartel club and here we are paying for it. 

[Minhosa]

Just now, oldtype said:

 

I'm all for offering aggressive agent fees, I just don't think we could realistically offer an agent enough money where they'd be willing to conceal interest from a bigger club when their client asks them to canvass the market. I know agents are shady fuckers and all, but bros need some plausible deniability.

Who said conceal interest? This is about moving so quickly the other interest is irrelevant because the deal works for everyone. It’s about taking away the incentive to leak. 

[vexred]

You know Romano when it's completed "the player only wanted Liverpool" 

[The College Dropout]

9 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Who did we get before they had time to act? Isak was linked with arsenal for years before we got him. They obviously passed particularly after that last season in Spain. 

That deal was done in days though. 
 

Aounds like Liverpool have got this deal done quickly themselves - no leaks.  Days not weeks.  

[r0cafella]

Just now, oldtype said:

 

Even right now I think we are a bigger draw than Milan. It's mostly just the top six and Bayern/Barcelona/PSG/Madrid that we have no hope against.

They have no money so your right. They spend time looking for free agents who are over the hill and let the social media convince the fans how well they've done.

[oldtype]

It's worth noting that the actual time that the deal is being discussed bears no relationship whatsoever of the time that leaks appear in the media. Again, would be very surprised if his agent wasn't talking to Liverpool on background from the moment we made our bid.

[Kid Icarus]

1 minute ago, r0cafella said:

As mentioned Ki it's not a matter of speed anymore, they have revenue hits at the time we bought Bruno those constraints are gone now. 

 

For the nonsense talk of PIF to be a thing they had to be all in, instead they went for some Pacifying approach to not upset the cartel club and here we are paying for it. 

It's still a matter of speed, it's not just one interested club we need to get in front of, it's all of them, but I do think it's much harder than it was in January 2022. Summer 2024 was when it started to feel like the window was a wall.

[Dubrovnik Dubravka]

We can only sign when they're either massively overpriced, or truly out of the blue.

 

This habit of waiting, hesitating, loitering around is happening again and again to the point of embarrassment.

 

Basically, club sources need to shut their mouths and journalists need to stop speaking with confidence.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 23:42 by Dubrovnik Dubravka

[r0cafella]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

That deal was done in days though. 
 

Aounds like Liverpool have got this deal done quickly themselves - no leaks.  Days not weeks.  

Which one Isak? It doesn't matter how quickly we did it in that window. It was pretty evident the cartel clubs passed at that fee. 

 

And this is the other side of that coin, the Newcastle that were triggering release clauses for isak isn't this Newcastle. That ambitious club who led me to believe what they said may happen no longer exists imo. 

[Infinitely Content]

That sweet sweet deja vu, back in the UK, lovely warm days, back working from home, Liverpool hijacking our transfer deals. Beautiful.

[oldtype]

In conclusion, this all sucks and I'm sure there are ways our transfer practices could be improved, but speed isn't one of them. Unless we're talking about moving an entire window in advance, speed is irrelevant to our ability to beat cartel clubs to a signing. We just can't.

[The College Dropout]

I do think Cartel clubs look at our negotiations. I don’t think this lad was Liverpools number 1 target.  But they’ve thought about it - €40m is low risk given his profile and wages. Us dithering does open the door to others.  
 

You know when every step is on Romano’s feed we can get gazumped.  But we wanted to haggle over a few million. 

[Kanj]

1 minute ago, Minhosa said:

Who said conceal interest? This is about moving so quickly the other interest is irrelevant because the deal works for everyone. It’s about taking away the incentive to leak. 

worth mentioning again (as you know) I make a living in acquisitions and know this world pretty fucking well.

[TheBrownBottle]

18 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Correlation ≠ causation, but we've never seemed right in the transfer market since Staveley and Ghoudoussi left.

I get the distinct impression they had a direct line to a decision-maker at PIF who could press the ‘release funds’ button.  We’re operating like we have to write a revised business case if the selling club wants an extra million more than we originally thought (and maybe this is the case).