You can always trust the Scousers...

[Guest bovril]

i'll back your calls against mackenzie when liverpool fans admit their part.

 

The fence was the main reason for the deaths.  Football fans were treated like animals back then, and the erection of fences around the country was a disgraceful move in the first place.  Obviously this was long before football became popular amongst the prawn sandwich types.  The police were next to blame, anyone familiar with policing of football matches back then would have an idea of what they were like.

 

The only blame that can be held against Liverpool fans is having a few pints and going to the match.  If your problem is with ticketless fans, then you need to look at how the majority of well supported teams fans would of behaved if they were in a similar position, I would say exactly the same.

 

As has already been mentioned, it very nearly happened to us.

 

 

[Guest spike spiegel]

I always thought Justice was for the police officers who made the inept decisions which cost the lives of 96, and damaged many other people. The most they got was . It's very comparable to the Charles De Manez(sorry, can't spell his name) case where the officers got away scot free with killing an innocent person.

 

That was my thinking as a fan anyway, the MacKenzie thing is a different thing - it just got people to remember to ram it home what we're fighting for.

 

My point exactly. Liverpool fans themselves don't even know. I don't know why you expect anyone else to pay the slightest bit of attention.

 

I do know what the fight for justice is for, but I do agree a lot don't.

[Wullie]

I always thought Justice was for the police officers who made the inept decisions which cost the lives of 96, and damaged many other people. The most they got was . It's very comparable to the Charles De Manez(sorry, can't spell his name) case where the officers got away scot free with killing an innocent person.

 

That was my thinking as a fan anyway, the MacKenzie thing is a different thing - it just got people to remember to ram it home what we're fighting for.

 

My point exactly. Liverpool fans themselves don't even know. I don't know why you expect anyone else to pay the slightest bit of attention.

 

I do know what the fight for justice is for, but I do agree a lot don't.

 

What I meant was that 'fru' and a couple of others earlier in the thread were saying that the protest was solely against Mackenzie.

[Dokko]

I wonder if Liverpool getting dumped out of the FA cup has anything to do with the shitty protest at the start of the match?

 

 

 

[Guest Rushian]

did liverpool fans attempt to entire the groung illegally ?

did liverpool fans attempt to rush the gates when it seemed liked they'd miss the kick off ?

 

No. Which is why its so frustrating to keep reading such nonsense.

 

Read the Taylor Report and you'll find the cause of the crush outside wasn't fans trying to gain illegal entry, or rushing the gates (this was physically impossible as anyone who has seen the CCTV footage will testify), it was caused by a police failure to implement their usual safety policies. Due to the appallingly inadequate and peculiar entrance system to the Leppings Lane the police/stewards would apply a filtering system a couple of hundred yards up the road to prevent a build up of too many fans into too small an area. This didn't happen in 89 and as more and more fans arrived a gradual build up took place with the police doing nothing to prevent it, such that a massive crush started to form outside well before kick off.

 

As more and more fans arrived by coach (there'd been a major accident on the motorway and police queued up many of the coaches to escort them all together as a group arriving late) the situation got worse. Eventually gate C was opened and the pressure as released down the slope which led directly onto the back of the already over-crowded central pens, with no direction away from this area by stewards/police. Those behind weren't aware of what was happening in front and the crush got worse eventually killing 96.

 

8 years previously a similar crush occurred at the Spurs-Wolves semi in the Leppings Lane end with fans having to be allowed onto the pitch (something the police didn't do 8 years later). After this the FA removed semis from Hillsborough for 6 seasons. Despite getting the ok to restage semi matches, the safety certificate hadn't been renewed and was years out of date, crush barriers had been removed in the intervening years making the central pens even more dangerous, some remaining barriers were rusted and corroded. The police office in charge on the day had never policed a match there but "signed off" the certificate for the game without reading up on the procedures. When things started to go wrong he didn't have a clue what to do.

 

Sad fact remains that wehn the kick was stopped 6 minutes in, research for Taylor's report showed the lower tier was still well below capacity as the pens either side were sparsely populated.

[midds]

So every person in the lower tier of the Leppings Lane end had a ticket, yes?

 

Sparsely populated? Give over - it was fucking rammed.

[Guest micmania1]

Police and Stewrads are payed to police the match and make it safe. Whether they could cope or not, the fans were not kept safe therefore the police weren't successful in doing there job. Whether it was the police who were there on the day were to blame or the people who decided how many police were needed are to blame, it goes without saying the local authorities did not do there job properly and whether it was out of there control or not they are to blame in some way.

 

I read that somebody had been before this happend and he noticed that there was a problem. If this was a problem already, it should have been dealt with before it got this far. This also should have been acknowledged by the local authorities and they should have been able to deal with it.

 

If there were ticketless fans trying to push through, they need to take a big part of the blame.

 

Whoever's fault you think it may be, the protest wasn't about that. Kelvin Mackenzie obviously lied about what had happend to benefit himself and showed total disregard to the families and friends of those affected. After all this time he has brought it back up and I think LFC fans are right to protest against HIM. I havn't seen the protest yet but on the coach back from Birmingham we were listening to the liverpool match and the commentators did comment on it, although they didnt know its exact purpose.

 

For people to say LFC fans are wrong to protest agaist him is disrespectful. At least they actually take action and stand for what they believe in. People are also calling it attention seeking, but correct me if im wrong, isn't that what a protest primarily is? I for one wouldn't have a clue about it if they hadn't of done it.

 

Some people hane no morales. If anything we should be supporting this campaign!

[Superior Acuña]

as 12,000 people on the Kop showed you tonight. Like it or lump it geordies.

 

 

I'd be suprised if many of them actually had assessed the situation impartially or even knew what was going on.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong btw.

[Guest spike spiegel]

I always thought Justice was for the police officers who made the inept decisions which cost the lives of 96, and damaged many other people. The most they got was . It's very comparable to the Charles De Manez(sorry, can't spell his name) case where the officers got away scot free with killing an innocent person.

 

That was my thinking as a fan anyway, the MacKenzie thing is a different thing - it just got people to remember to ram it home what we're fighting for.

 

My point exactly. Liverpool fans themselves don't even know. I don't know why you expect anyone else to pay the slightest bit of attention.

 

I do know what the fight for justice is for, but I do agree a lot don't.

 

What I meant was that 'fru' and a couple of others earlier in the thread were saying that the protest was solely against Mackenzie.

 

Some of the banners were, but it would have been embarassing had it been solely against MacKenzie - the cunt thrives on that sort of publicity. Think he just brought out strong feelings again, and the Arsenal game was televised so it was a good oppurtunity to remind people that justice hadn't been served. People still think it's important that justice is served before the dead can rest.

[Howaythelads]

did liverpool fans attempt to entire the groung illegally ?

did liverpool fans attempt to rush the gates when it seemed liked they'd miss the kick off ?

 

No. Which is why its so frustrating to keep reading such nonsense.

 

Read the Taylor Report and you'll find the cause of the crush outside wasn't fans trying to gain illegal entry, or rushing the gates (this was physically impossible as anyone who has seen the CCTV footage will testify), it was caused by a police failure to implement their usual safety policies. Due to the appallingly inadequate and peculiar entrance system to the Leppings Lane the police/stewards would apply a filtering system a couple of hundred yards up the road to prevent a build up of too many fans into too small an area. This didn't happen in 89 and as more and more fans arrived a gradual build up took place with the police doing nothing to prevent it, such that a massive crush started to form outside well before kick off.

 

As more and more fans arrived by coach (there'd been a major accident on the motorway and police queued up many of the coaches to escort them all together as a group arriving late) the situation got worse. Eventually gate C was opened and the pressure as released down the slope which led directly onto the back of the already over-crowded central pens, with no direction away from this area by stewards/police. Those behind weren't aware of what was happening in front and the crush got worse eventually killing 96.

 

8 years previously a similar crush occurred at the Spurs-Wolves semi in the Leppings Lane end with fans having to be allowed onto the pitch (something the police didn't do 8 years later). After this the FA removed semis from Hillsborough for 6 seasons. Despite getting the ok to restage semi matches, the safety certificate hadn't been renewed and was years out of date, crush barriers had been removed in the intervening years making the central pens even more dangerous, some remaining barriers were rusted and corroded. The police office in charge on the day had never policed a match there but "signed off" the certificate for the game without reading up on the procedures. When things started to go wrong he didn't have a clue what to do.

 

Sad fact remains that wehn the kick was stopped 6 minutes in, research for Taylor's report showed the lower tier was still well below capacity as the pens either side were sparsely populated.

 

:roll:

 

As I've been saying. They will never accept the responsibility for their part in it. And as I also said earlier, it's no coincidence that 2 massive and terrible incidents involved supporters of the same club.

[Guest Scouseman]

Maybe you could show us which part of the Taylor report blames the fans, or any other evidence you have.  You sound so positive in your beliefs I'd be really interested to know the source.

[Howaythelads]

Maybe you could show us which part of the Taylor report blames the fans, or any other evidence you have.  You sound so positive in your beliefs I'd be really interested to know the source.

 

We're never going to agree, mate.

 

I just don't believe it's correct for Liverpool supporters to refuse to accept any blame for their part in the tragedy. Had they not turned up late and drunk and tried to force their way into the ground the tragedy would never have happened. The Police made mistakes and they are rightly blamed for that, but the supporters should accept some responsibility also. Their actions created the conditions for those bad decisions. My opinion and I've no axe to grind. Of course it's a tragedy for those who died, their relatives and also for everyone who witnessed it but couldn't do anything about it. They'll suffer trauma there's no doubt about it. Seeing someone die is something you never forget. I know that very well.

 

Before you quote the Taylor Report again can you confirm that you accept without question the findings of EVERY report that is produced? How many times has a report been published but people are sceptical about the findings? It happens often, in my opinion.

 

I note you ignore the fact that 2 major incidents involved supporters of Liverpool.

[Guest Scouseman]

Had they not turned up late and drunk and tried to force their way into the ground the tragedy would never have happened.   

 

There was nothing different going on that day to any other Saturday, up and down the country, with all fans, since football began. 

No violence, no rioting, no fighting, so you tell me, what was different that day that the police hadn’t seen at every football ground they’d ever been on duty at?

 

They couldn’t possibly have tried to force the door, they couldn’t move, physically.

 

So, you don’t believe the Taylor report, could you please tell us where you get your evidence from then or were you there maybe? 

I really would be interested to know where you get the foundation for your beliefs.

 

 

I haven’t ignored the two incidents comment, I just didn’t see what relevance it had.

 

 

[Big Geordie]

Can't believe some of the rubbish that I've read in this thread from some so called Newcastle 'supporters'.  It's no wonder that our reputation with other fans has gone downhill in recent years, when we have the amount of muppets in our ranks that we do. Take a good look at yourselves and be ashamed.  :wullie:

 

I'm old enough to remember Hillsbrough - the day itself and the few weeks that came afterwards. Fair play to the scousers for what they did last night - though I suspect they will never get the justice that they seek.

[Guest BooBoo]

Can't believe some of the rubbish that I've read in this thread from some so called Newcastle 'supporters'.  It's no wonder that our reputation with other fans has gone downhill in recent years, when we have the amount of muppets in our ranks that we do. Take a good look at yourselves and be ashamed.  :wullie:

 

I'm old enough to remember Hillsbrough - the day itself and the few weeks that came afterwards. Fair play to the scousers for what they did last night - though I suspect they will never get the justice that they seek.

 

I think the majority of posters on here are sympathetic, but are at a loss to what the protest hoped to realistically achieve.

[Guest Scouseman]

For Kelvin McKenzie to not be employed by the BBC was one of the things hoped for, which has been achieved in a small way at the moment.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

Some Liverpool fans don't do themselves any favours with their self pitty or actions but we have to all remember that people are grieving here and looking for closure and when people grieve or feel there has been a grave miscarriage of justice or are looking for answers they feel haven't been met they can become very bitter and overwhelming.

 

I personally feel nothing but empathy for these people and know if the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't let it rest either or give up until I had answers or got justice, whatever that may be or mean or the interpretations of justice.

 

As an oustider looking in, I can see two sides of the coin here of course as we all can (non LFC fans) and it would be easy for me to say: "let it rest, what happened was a tragedy and tragedies happen, often people are to blame somwhere down the line when tragiedies happen and bleating on about it and targeting individuals isn't going to help things long after it happened", but why should they? Think about it. Your kid goes to a football match and comes back in a box?

 

Even if there is no-one to blame, someone is to blame if you know what I mean and I wouldn't be able to move on myself, regardless.

 

Is being drunk a crime? Is wanting to see your team a crime? Is turning up without a ticket a crime? No, not in my opinion, maybe foolish, but howay, no-one deserves to come back in a box for wanting to see their team in action.

 

The biggest tragedy to come out of it is the lack of resposnibility from ALL sides, maybe if ALL sides got together and put their hands up, then there could be closure but its as if its become a battle of wits and I also question the agenda of some fans.

 

Its just sad though, the whole thing and a black stain on the game. For the benefit of the game it would be good if everyone could move on but could you, if you were a victim? I couldn't. I'd want that Mckenzie bloke dead and anyone else who could have done something to either prevent it or save lives but didn't, the people who pushed fans back over the pen etc, I'd want some justice for that too.

 

IMO LFC fans are blameless simply because they were in the right to go and support their team, even those without tickets. My dad and uncles used to get into tons of Toon games without a ticket and you can't blame people for trying if there is a chance you can get in. As for being drunk, that's part and parcel of football, pre-match drinks. Look at the clipe of some of wor lot that get into matches.

 

BTW I wouldn't say the Police per se were to blame or those that made the stadium either, individuals were to blame IMO and not so much for it happening but for things that DID happen during the tragedy and after it. Indeed part of me thinks the tragedy was unavoidable or always going to happen, it could so easily have been any club, indeed it could have happened to us a few times and I'm sure during those games there were many drunks and ticketless fans in the crowd.

 

Anyway I respect anyone who won't stand down and have got nothing but sympathy for those still suffering. Going back to my opening line, you do feel an element of LFC fans couldn't care less about justice or closure though and that my they don't half play on it and while I'd want that Mckenzie cunt topped, he does have a right to work regardless and when you start demanding he doesn't or targeting him, are you any better than him, really?

 

Good on the City of Liverpool for not buying the Sun, but don't expect everyone else to agree or share your sense of hatred for it (which happens) or don't get your knickers in a twist if people question things because lets face it, you don't complain about money from Sky etc and as fans, although yous have suffered, so has the game and so have others. LFC fans contributed to the banning of English clubs and many English fans suffered at the hands of foreign fans as a result of Heysel. That has nowt to do with this tragedy we are talking about but many people don't like LFC fans for good reason and couldn't care less, some even thinking what goes around comes around as shitty as that may sound.

 

Anyway best of look to the true victims and their plight, may yous get that justice and closure yous are looking for whatever it may be.

[Guest Knightrider]

For Kelvin McKenzie to not be employed by the BBC was one of the things hoped for, which has been achieved in a small way at the moment.

 

 

 

Now that I don't agree with, that's wrong because he has a right to work and by campaigning against such trivial things yous are making a farce of the tragedy and really, are no better than him.

[Guest fru]

So every person in the lower tier of the Leppings Lane end had a ticket, yes?

 

Sparsely populated? Give over - it was f***ing rammed.

 

Mate, you ooze misinformation,. pens 3 and 4 were rammed because all the supporters were directed towards them, whereas the other pens were sparsely populated. Thats what Rushian was saying.

 

As I've been saying. They will never accept the responsibility for their part in it. And as I also said earlier, it's no coincidence that 2 massive and terrible incidents involved supporters of the same club.

 

Heysel was the fault of Liverpool supporters, Hillsborough was not. They were both tragedies and both inside football stadiums but the similarity ends there. Heysel and Hillsborough can not be compared to each other, one was caused by hooliganism, the other wasn't.

 

 

[Big Geordie]

Someone made a point earlier that had it been Newcastle fan's instead of Liverpool, we'd still be protesting too. It's about making people aware of what actually happened, and not allow some of the ignorance which has shown itself in this thread to become the norm. Many of our younger poster's on here (though no fault of their own) have neverever stood on terraces where you are packed in like sardines. It often happened at St James during the bigger games - I understand because I did.

 

Funnily enough - the week after Hillsbrough, we played Luton at home and the fences which penned fans into the terraces had been ripped down. It was a very, very solom (sp?) atmosphere - something I'll never forget, as with the previous weekend when the disaster occurred.

[Howaythelads]

Had they not turned up late and drunk and tried to force their way into the ground the tragedy would never have happened. 

 

There was nothing different going on that day to any other Saturday, up and down the country, with all fans, since football began. 

No violence, no rioting, no fighting, so you tell me, what was different that day that the police hadn’t seen at every football ground they’d ever been on duty at?

 

They couldn’t possibly have tried to force the door, they couldn’t move, physically.

 

So, you don’t believe the Taylor report, could you please tell us where you get your evidence from then or were you there maybe? 

I really would be interested to know where you get the foundation for your beliefs.

 

 

I haven’t ignored the two incidents comment, I just didn’t see what relevance it had.

 

 

 

Ok

[2sheds]

I'm struggling to think of an FA cup semi final in the eighties when there weren't pissed up and ticketless fans from both teams at the ground.

[midds]

So every person in the lower tier of the Leppings Lane end had a ticket, yes?

 

Sparsely populated? Give over - it was f***ing rammed.

 

Mate, you ooze misinformation,. pens 3 and 4 were rammed because all the supporters were directed towards them, whereas the other pens were sparsely populated. Thats what Rushian was saying.

 

As I've been saying. They will never accept the responsibility for their part in it. And as I also said earlier, it's no coincidence that 2 massive and terrible incidents involved supporters of the same club.

 

Heysel was the fault of Liverpool supporters, Hillsborough was not. They were both tragedies and both inside football stadiums but the similarity ends there. Heysel and Hillsborough can not be compared to each other, one was caused by hooliganism, the other wasn't.

 

 

 

So they all had tickets then?

 

Agree 100% with HTL (which, believe me, goes against the norm) on this one. We share the exact same opinion on this one. If the ticketless fans hadn't been there, the disaster wouldn't have happened. End of my participation in the thread.

[Guest Rushian]

Agree 100% with HTL (which, believe me, goes against the norm) on this one. We share the exact same opinion on this one. If the ticketless fans hadn't been there, the disaster wouldn't have happened. End of my participation in the thread.

 

Given you're such an expert on the subject, how many ticketless fans were there?

 

The Taylor Report which took the best part of a year to report fully, concluded that "ticketless" fans had absolutely no impact on what happened that day. The terrace was still below full capacity whern the game was stopped at 3.06pm as evidenced by the many fans who were still outside and didn't gain entry with valid tickets.

 

It's easy to pluck an opinion out of the air, but much harder to study what actually went on that day because it requires a bit more effort than a few throwaway lines on a forum.

[midds]

Agree 100% with HTL (which, believe me, goes against the norm) on this one. We share the exact same opinion on this one. If the ticketless fans hadn't been there, the disaster wouldn't have happened. End of my participation in the thread.

 

Given you're such an expert on the subject, how many ticketless fans were there?

 

The Taylor Report which took the best part of a year to report fully, concluded that "ticketless" fans had absolutely no impact on what happened that day. The terrace was still below full capacity whern the game was stopped at 3.06pm as evidenced by the many fans who were still outside and didn't gain entry with valid tickets.

 

It's easy to pluck an opinion out of the air, but much harder to study what actually went on that day because it requires a bit more effort than a few throwaway lines on a forum.

 

I said I'm leaving this alone and I meant it. We obviously disagree on this one and that's fair enough. I've formed my opinion of things from speaking to 3 Liverpool fans who went to the game, the live footage I saw on Grandstand and the still pictures printed. You agree with Taylor that the Liverpool fans were blameless - I couldn't disagree stronger. I realise my opinions may be unpopular but I couldn't give a toss tbh. Over and out. Post what you like.