St James' Park

[Pancrate1892]

3 minutes ago, Interpolic said:

 

Aye I'm not saying Wembley is a good ground, I'm saying that's a new ground I've been to. And asking if anyone has been to a new ground and been bowled over by the atmosphere. Everyone always points to Spurs' ground, is the atmosphere that great there? Even so, the ratio seems pretty poor if that's the only good example anyone ever gives. 

Also I would argue that there might be a swift decline of atmosphere once your past the early excitement. 

You look at all these new build grounds from the late 90s to 00s, all of them had the initial fanfare but they now just look like a vacuous shithole that represents IKEA more than a football ground. It doesn't help that they are all the same cheap generic build surrounded by wasteland, carparks or motorways. 

 

We presume we wont make the same mistakes as other clubs but there's huge risk as soon as we send the wrecking ball into SJP as well because you can't simply get it back.

 

Evermore on YouTube came out with probably the best thing I've heard from anyone and said maybe we should have just let the big 6 fuck off to their super league, because that's where this necessity for more income comes from. 

[Stifler]

10 minutes ago, Interpolic said:

 

Aye I'm not saying Wembley is a good ground, I'm saying that's a new ground I've been to. And asking if anyone has been to a new ground and been bowled over by the atmosphere. Everyone always points to Spurs' ground, is the atmosphere that great there? Even so, the ratio seems pretty poor if that's the only good example anyone ever gives. 

Well I went for the NFL, so it was a totally different atmosphere than what you get at a football match.

To be honest it just offered everything, from different types of food, an onsite brewery, massive merchandise store. The views were great, it looks unique both outside and inside the stadium.

For corporate, they have such a good offering. You can actually sit down for a 3 hour game, where most seats at SJP, you sit down for that long and you have little to no legroom and cramp up.

[Interpolic]

24 minutes ago, Stifler said:

Well I went for the NFL, so it was a totally different atmosphere than what you get at a football match.

To be honest it just offered everything, from different types of food, an onsite brewery, massive merchandise store. The views were great, it looks unique both outside and inside the stadium.

For corporate, they have such a good offering. You can actually sit down for a 3 hour game, where most seats at SJP, you sit down for that long and you have little to no legroom and cramp up.

 

Fair enough, all of the stuff you've said there will doubtless help raise revenues and feel all swanky vs what we've got now, but it's of zero interest to me personally as a non-rich fan of a team with a ground in its city centre. 

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, Pancrate1892 said:

It's a bit concerning that people seem to be eager to get away from a football field that was first in use 140 years ago. 

 

Remember, Newcastle united are just part of the story that is st James' park, rangers, west end and even Aston villa in a cup tie v shsnkhouse pre-date newcastle united. The place is just as special as the club and if we can't adjust the ground slightly north then we are where we need to be. 

 

I think if there are newer generations that aren't emotionally attached they should maybe pick up a book, rather than wank over the prospect of NFL and hot dogs. 

 

Even if option C is ever a reality, I think they'll go with option A to serve the next 10 years. They've got the land, the bridge over the metro and road solution has been through the proposal stages 20 year ago under shepherd and hall with just money the problem.

 

Then I think we'll move east stand season ticket holders up there for a season or 2 when they pull down the east stand and give it and extra 2k with a slightly more vertical design. 

 

In the process we won't have to play anywhere else and that's the problem with all the other options as we could be waiting 10 years for anything that impacts the conservation zone (leazes terrace and leazes park itself) 

I know the history of SJP.  I’ve read enough books on NUFC.  I also don’t like what football’s become in terms of the anodyne match day experience and the pushing out of traditional local working class support.  I don’t like the ‘Americanisation’ of football.  I don’t like shit kickoff times, the decimation of the FA Cup, the all-pervasive greed which has wreaked havoc on the football pyramid.

 

But the game has changed, and that seems unlikely to be fixed.  And if it isn’t to be changed back then all I want is to see a competitive NUFC.  I don’t get emotional about where a rectangle of grass is situated tbh.  It’s not an irreplaceable structure.  Many of England’s biggest clubs have moved home, or are likely to in the not too distant future.  If staying at SJP leaves us behind, then I don’t give a monkeys about going.  Preferably there would be a solution to stay; but thanks to Newcastle’s relative isolation - and the fact that it is unlikely that the obvious and grown-up prospect of ground sharing with our favourite neighbours for a couple of years during a rebuild has zero chance of occurring - it’s either stay and get left behind or build somewhere else.  No issue with those who want to stay, but they shouldn’t pretend that staying would have no consequences on the club’s future. 

[Keegans Export]

There are lots of good reasons to stay at SJP but can we not pretend there isn't a 140+ page thread about Match Atmosphere, the majority of which is critical in tone? 

[Pancrate1892]

18 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I know the history of SJP.  I’ve read enough books on NUFC.  I also don’t like what football’s become in terms of the anodyne match day experience and the pushing out of traditional local working class support.  I don’t like the ‘Americanisation’ of football.  I don’t like shit kickoff times, the decimation of the FA Cup, the all-pervasive greed which has wreaked havoc on the football pyramid.

 

But the game has changed, and that seems unlikely to be fixed.  And if it isn’t to be changed back then all I want is to see a competitive NUFC.  I don’t get emotional about where a rectangle of grass is situated tbh.  It’s not an irreplaceable structure.  Many of England’s biggest clubs have moved home, or are likely to in the not too distant future.  If staying at SJP leaves us behind, then I don’t give a monkeys about going.  Preferably there would be a solution to stay; but thanks to Newcastle’s relative isolation - and the fact that it is unlikely that the obvious and grown-up prospect of ground sharing with our favourite neighbours for a couple of years during a rebuild has zero chance of occurring - it’s either stay and get left behind or build somewhere else.  No issue with those who want to stay, but they shouldn’t pretend that staying would have no consequences on the club’s future. 

I agree (by the way I was on about a different generation that should read books not you) 

 

I would also say there's consequences of moving too and my point is that if it's not on/near the current site then that could also be devastating, we just don't know. 

 

Id just hate to be west hams position where they feel they don't even have a home, not even a trophy has helped that situation 

[TheBrownBottle]

51 minutes ago, Pancrate1892 said:

I agree (by the way I was on about a different generation that should read books not you) 

 

I would also say there's consequences of moving too and my point is that if it's not on/near the current site then that could also be devastating, we just don't know. 

 

Id just hate to be west hams position where they feel they don't even have a home, not even a trophy has helped that situation 

Yeah, I agree there’s definitely consequences to a move - particularly if it is a distance from the site.  I do think that a club has a ‘soul’ of sorts.  It’s a balancing act - like I said, I don’t think those who don’t want to move are ‘wrong’ in any meaningful sense.

 

Also agree re West Ham.  That’s the worst possible move - it’s not fit for purpose, that ground.  It’s not a football stadium 

[WilliamPS]

The best thing about brand new stadia or new stands are the single tiers.

 

leazes and gallowgate were both built in the post Taylor report era where that wasn’t possible. I’d like any changes to try and fix that.

 

the flaw in any new stadiums business case will be capacity will max out at about 65k, so it’s a lot of investment for a more limited pay off (+13k). White Hart Lane was only 36k. If it’s about revenue per seat then there’s a lot of opportunity to re-corporate the milburn and leazes. When they reopened they had a lot more extras and clubs than they do now - but it means fans paying more.

[HalloNUFC]

What would be ticket holders and local supporters reaction if the owners decided to redevelop St James' park and in the mean time sign ground sharing aggreement with Sunderland for home matches for like a season or 2?? 

[Keegans Export]

1 minute ago, HalloNUFC said:

What would be ticket holders and local supporters reaction if the owners decided to redevelop St James' park and in the mean time sign ground sharing aggreement with Sunderland for home matches for like a season or 2?? 

Been said before but absolutely no chance whatsoever Northumbria Police allow that

[OpenC]

I went to Sunderland today for photographic purposes. Never been to their ground before and it left me in a stronger frame of mind that generic stadiums built on derelict brownfield are an absolute no for me. 

 

The people were all friendly enough and because of the way they're channeled to the stadium from the city centre across the bridge it honestly seems loads busier in a lot of places than SJP does around 2.30 (and apparently a lot come in from the west as well as from the centre). But the stadium itself looks a soulless, characterless thing other than the branding (give me something which is half lopsided throwback, half towering fortress any day) and the car parks that are all around it and were no doubt part of the design make for a weird combination of parking cars and wandering fans. The other point of note is that the whole place seems completely surrounded by shit burger vans, stalls which noisily advertise that they're selling blue sweets and blue pop  and one pop up pub (which was alright when it was quiet).  This is all, I guess, because the stadium is a sufficient distance from the city centre for people to want to eat and drink closer to the venue, something we don't have to suffer and consequently we don't have quarter of the fast food outside our ground and less shite lying around as a result. I am certain this is what would happen in Newcastle if we moved to the riverside, which is similarly close-but-not-quite.

 

The amount of food detritus lying around outside is why there are so many gulls making an appearance in the stadium, certainly. I couldn't see anywhere selling crisps mind.

 

We would be mad to give up on the heritage, character and location of SJP imo, absolutely insane.  The stuff that people are confidently asserting will spring up around a new ground to make the area feel less derelict has just not appeared on Wearside. I actually liked it quite a lot from a football fan perspective but I like what we've got much more.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2024 by OpenC

[Stifler]

5 minutes ago, OpenC said:

I went to Sunderland today for photographic purposes. Never been to their ground before and it left me in a stronger frame of mind that generic stadiums built on derelict brownfield are an absolute no for me. 

 

The people were all friendly enough and because of the way they're channeled to the stadium from the city centre across the bridge it honestly seems loads busier in a lot of places than SJP does around 2.30 (and apparently a lot come in from the west as well as from the centre). But the stadium itself looks a soulless, characterless thing other than the branding (give me something which is half lopsided throwback, half towering fortress any day) and the car parks that are all around it and were no doubt part of the design make for a weird combination of parking cars and wandering fans. The other point of note is that the whole place seems completely surrounded by shit burger vans, stalls which noisily advertise that they're selling blue sweets and blue pop  and one pop up pub (which was alright when it was quiet).  This is all, I guess, because the stadium is a sufficient distance from the city centre for people to want to eat and drink closer to the venue, something we don't have to suffer and consequently we don't have quarter of the fast food outside our ground and less shite lying around as a result. I am certain this is what would happen in Newcastle if we moved to the riverside, which is similarly close-but-not-quite.

 

The amount of food detritus lying around outside is why there are so many gulls making an appearance in the stadium, certainly. I couldn't see anywhere selling crisps mind.

 

We would be mad to give up on the heritage, character and location of SJP imo, absolutely insane.  The stuff that people are confidently asserting will spring up around a new ground to make the area feel less derelict has just not appeared on Wearside. I actually liked it quite a lot from a football fan perspective but I like what we've got much more.

Sunderland’s stadium is about the same distance from their main retail core than SJP is away from Northumberland Street.

Like SJP, it is probably at the northern tip of the city centre, and likely the last significant building before crossing out the city centre. A section of their university is further to the rest of it and can also just about call itself city centre.

 

SJP still has burger vans, depending on the game you can have 4/5 below the Gallowgate, and one behind the East stand. That pop up bar at the SOL, assuming you mean the one outside the pub, is always there.

Where ever the stadium is, whatever the offering in the ground, and no matter if you have a city full of places to eat/drink, you will always have these vendors popping up, it’s unavoidable.

 

We can debate what we might lose or might gain until the cows come home, or not if we build on Castle Leazes. Whatever we do, be it an extension, rebuild, or a new build we absolutely have to plan it carefully, and do it right.

So long as we do that, then we shouldn’t lose any soul from our stadium, even if it is a Castle Leazes new build.

[Stifler]

11 hours ago, Interpolic said:

 

Fair enough, all of the stuff you've said there will doubtless help raise revenues and feel all swanky vs what we've got now, but it's of zero interest to me personally as a non-rich fan of a team with a ground in its city centre. 

That’s absolutely fair that it may not interest you, some people wouldn’t be interested in it. What I would say though is that you could survey the Spurs fans for example, and ask them if they would prefer to have their new stadium, or their old one. To a man I think even the ones who were not convinced beforehand would say they would prefer their new one, West Ham though, different story.

[Toon1892]

11 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I know the history of SJP.  I’ve read enough books on NUFC.  I also don’t like what football’s become in terms of the anodyne match day experience and the pushing out of traditional local working class support.  I don’t like the ‘Americanisation’ of football.  I don’t like shit kickoff times, the decimation of the FA Cup, the all-pervasive greed which has wreaked havoc on the football pyramid.

 

But the game has changed, and that seems unlikely to be fixed.  And if it isn’t to be changed back then all I want is to see a competitive NUFC.  I don’t get emotional about where a rectangle of grass is situated tbh.  It’s not an irreplaceable structure.  Many of England’s biggest clubs have moved home, or are likely to in the not too distant future.  If staying at SJP leaves us behind, then I don’t give a monkeys about going.  Preferably there would be a solution to stay; but thanks to Newcastle’s relative isolation - and the fact that it is unlikely that the obvious and grown-up prospect of ground sharing with our favourite neighbours for a couple of years during a rebuild has zero chance of occurring - it’s either stay and get left behind or build somewhere else.  No issue with those who want to stay, but they shouldn’t pretend that staying would have no consequences on the club’s future. 

It’s just a rectangle of grass.

it’s just the clubs name.

It’s just two colours.

 

May as well just support a successful team and be done with it.

[Toon1892]

39 minutes ago, Stifler said:

That’s absolutely fair that it may not interest you, some people wouldn’t be interested in it. What I would say though is that you could survey the Spurs fans for example, and ask them if they would prefer to have their new stadium, or their old one. To a man I think even the ones who were not convinced beforehand would say they would prefer their new one, West Ham though, different story.

I honestly wasn’t impressed with the Spurs stadium. The expansion has caused it to become a nightmare to get to and from now with the additional fans and no improvement in infrastructure.

 

If you like different foods then great but it wouldn’t work at a city centre location. People eat before the match at SJP, not at half time.

 

Atmosphere was very poor this season even when they spanked us 4-1.

[OpenC]

59 minutes ago, Stifler said:

 

SJP still has burger vans, depending on the game you can have 4/5 below the Gallowgate, and one behind the East stand. That pop up bar at the SOL, assuming you mean the one outside the pub, is always there.

Where ever the stadium is, whatever the offering in the ground, and no matter if you have a city full of places to eat/drink, you will always have these vendors popping up, it’s unavoidable.

 

No, the pop up is 'Bar 73', literally scaffold and planks, and it's on the bridge heading down to the A Love Supreme shop.  The food outlets there are more numerous and all much bigger than the ones we get at SJP, it's not even close to the same.

 

And I'm not sure how much retail cores come into it. Nobody is taking bags of new clothes into SJP - the SoL is a canny bit further from good and plentiful food and drink choices than SJP is from the Monument or Stowell Street, I think they're the city centre feature which is of more significance.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2024 by OpenC

[Weezertron]

I get it, but the amount of times NFL is mention in our plans to expand our stadium is gross as fuck. 

[Jonas]

11 hours ago, Keegans Export said:

There are lots of good reasons to stay at SJP but can we not pretend there isn't a 140+ page thread about Match Atmosphere, the majority of which is critical in tone? 

A new ground is 100% not going to change that. If anything will make it worse. Is there even a case where the reverse has happened, Arsenal and Spurs maybe because their atmosphere was never good - everywhere else mackems, boro, Man City, Southampton, West Ham, Millwall, Derby, Leicester is worse.

You only have to watch or listen to others game in this country to know its nothing to do with the various shaped stadiums or various ages.

[nufcnick]

3 minutes ago, Weezertron said:

I get it, but the amount of times NFL is mention in our plans to expand our stadium is gross as fuck. 

Why, it’s worth about £15/17m a season to spurs in game day revenue and fees paid by the NFL, that’s not to be sniffed at in my book 

[Toon1892]

1 minute ago, Jonas said:

A new ground is 100% not going to change that. If anything will make it worse. Is there even a case where the reverse has happened, Arsenal and Spurs maybe because their atmosphere was never good - everywhere else mackems, boro, Man City, Southampton, West Ham, Millwall, Derby, Leicester is worse.

You only have to watch or listen to others game in this country to know its nothing to do with the various shaped stadiums or various ages.

Completely agree.

 

Emirates is also horrific for atmosphere and so is Tottenhams new stadium (granted it’s the honeymoon period where everyone that hasn’t been yet says it’s amazing. That will change).

 

For an evening kick off I don’t think there’s a better atmosphere in the league than SJP.

[Toon1892]

1 minute ago, nufcnick said:

Why, it’s worth about £15/17m a season to spurs in game day revenue and fees paid by the NFL, that’s not to be sniffed at in my book 

The NFL isn’t coming to Newcastle. There are 10 European capital cities it would go to first. Stop being naive.

[OpenC]

Everybody knows that a properly designed stadium is 85% more likely to make the whole place sing Blaydon Races like we did in the 80s

[Keegans Export]

6 minutes ago, Jonas said:

A new ground is 100% not going to change that. If anything will make it worse.

Obviously you can't possibly know that with 100% certainty, although it wasn't the point I was making. There are lots of reasons to stay at SJP but protecting the "atmosphere" isn't one of them. We have great occasions at times absolutely but those are few and far between unfortunately. 

 

7 minutes ago, Jonas said:

Everywhere else mackems, boro, Man City, Southampton, West Ham, Millwall, Derby, Leicester is worse.

You only have to watch or listen to others game in this country to know its nothing to do with the various shaped stadiums or various ages.

Is there a ground in the country that has an atmosphere better than 10, 15 or 20 years ago? New stadium or not? 

[Toon1892]

2 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

Obviously you can't possibly know that with 100% certainty, although it wasn't the point I was making. There are lots of reasons to stay at SJP but protecting the "atmosphere" isn't one of them. We have great occasions at times absolutely but those are few and far between unfortunately. 

 

Is there a ground in the country that has an atmosphere better than 10, 15 or 20 years ago? New stadium or not? 

Agree with your points, no point moving for the atmosphere. 

[Keegans Export]

9 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

Agree with your points, no point moving for the atmosphere. 

I never suggested moving for the atmosphere. 

 

But you knew that of course