Cajun Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Jesus lads, the main thrust of my post wasn't who should have the fucking academy job. You started it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledDog Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Jesus lads, the main thrust of my post wasn't who should have the fucking academy job. Only thing worth commenting on tbh. No, to be fair I agree with the vast majority of your post. I had much the same arguement against accepting mediocrity with Yorkie last night. http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=37479.msg746372#msg746372 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemmill Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Jesus lads, the main thrust of my post wasn't who should have the fucking academy job. Only thing worth commenting on tbh. No, to be fair I agree with the vast majority of your post. I had much the same arguement against accepting mediocrity with Yorkie last night. http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=37479.msg746372#msg746372 Aye that's spot on too. As sick as we all are of the managerial merry go round, that's not an argument for sticking with a man who isn't up to the task. Bite the bullet, get rid, and this time at least attempt to get it right - we didn't do that last time at all, we just settled for the easy option. If we don't make changes asap we are fucked long term. All of the ground we gained when Keegan and Robson were here has already been lost. Either we do something now to make it back up, or we fall further (perhaps to the point where it's irretrievable) behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 No way am I going to read all of that. However, I do hope writing it was cathartic for you. Trying to fit in with the TT crowd again, mate? Anything with any depth to it and more than a couple of sentences and your mind goes into a spin? (Note the smiley thing acting as a clue) *Trolling* You do know about the new rule, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Jesus lads, the main thrust of my post wasn't who should have the fucking academy job. Only thing worth commenting on tbh. No, to be fair I agree with the vast majority of your post. I had much the same arguement against accepting mediocrity with Yorkie last night. http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=37479.msg746372#msg746372 Aye that's spot on too. As sick as we all are of the managerial merry go round, that's not an argument for sticking with a man who isn't up to the task. Bite the bullet, get rid, and this time at least attempt to get it right - we didn't do that last time at all, we just settled for the easy option. If we don't make changes asap we are fucked long term. All of the ground we gained when Keegan and Robson were here has already been lost. Either we do something now to make it back up, or we fall further (perhaps to the point where it's irretrievable) behind. We need a whole new management structure with the right man at the head and he needs to be given 3 years minimum. The whole backroom needs clearing out and FF should get a DOF who will act as a sounding board on key areas....ie avoid the purchases of Bumsnag and Owen etc... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I'm not sure resigning ourselves to mid-table mediocrity and Premiership survival for the next few seasons is the way forward. If that's our target then we're setting dangerously low goals. Top 4 next season is almost certainly beyond us but with a good manager and some wisely spent money we could be challenging for, if possibly not achieving, a Top 4 finish within 2 years. Take Spurs 3 years ago. They were much like us, struggling with some good players but no real direction. They get a good manager and a few good signings and bam, they're one dodgy dinner away from a CL spot. Shay is a top keeper, and Krul looks to be a potential succesor. So we're set in goals. Taylor I believe can be a good defender if he isn't stuck with the likes of Bramble for a partner. A couple of good full backs and a solid CB can be got if we have 15-20m to spend on them. We've got two very promising wingers in N'Zogbia and Milner, and in Parker we have a player who can do a job if moved back to being a DM. What we desperately need is a Scholes, Fabregas type player, someone to really make us tick in the middle of the field. That player will be hard, and likely expensive, to find but if we find him our midfield could be quite good, with Dyer, Duff and Butt also capable of contributing too. Emre would be able to, but I'd expect he'll be gone in the summer. Then add a bigger, more physical striker to give us a different option to Owen and Martins up front and we'd be pretty good tbh, assuming we get a good manager. I reckon all that could be bought by the start of the season after next. Obviously it won't be easy and odds are we won't get it done, but I don't buy into the idea that we're fucked for the next few years and should go about dismantling the team and starting over. We just need a good manager. Re: Spurs. They didn't simply get a good manager and a few good signings, they were taken-over by ENIC in 2001, who came in with a proper plan for the club and money to back it with. If Spurs still had Sugar I'd be highly dubious that they'd even be in the Premiership, let alone near the top of it. However, that's not to be said ENIC got it right straight away, either. Not saying this will happen at NUFC, but I'm just saying that Spurs didn't "just" get a good manager and made some good signings. In fact, ENIC seemed to take a while to "strike it lucky" with Jol, after the Santini debacle - but they certainly seemed to have a vision for the club and backed it with cash. As Gemmill has said, we're looking for some of that from Shepherd this summer, because at the minute everything about the club is being questioned from all angles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I've actually been thinking that our best chance of success is that Freddy just 'strikes it lucky' and manages to appoint the best man the next time. I can't see the prospect of a takeover getting any close after the last two close-shaves. As sad as it is, I think we've got to get used to the idea of Freddy hanging around for the forseeable future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil K Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 There is no gaurantee obviously but if you put a Nova 1.1 into an F1 race you aint gonna come close are you? Souness was clearly a poor choice and Roeder was the no hassle option. No ambition and we basically got what we paid for. Absolutely spot on. Shepherd was unwilling and incapable of attracting a good manager. He went for the easy and CHEAP option of Roeder. Some of us (like moi) could see it as lunacy, most didn't - they didn't look past the results, and see the crappy performances that were as bad - worse if anything - than Souness'. Keep faith with Roeder, and we will change places with the makems, with no Roy Keane in the wings to kick some ars*s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I think Roeder is more suited to the "DOF" role, he can handle the press ok and does seem to have the right ideal/ideas to move the club forward. He seems the type of person who could work hand in hand with a "proper" manager. His team selection and coaching seem to be further and further away from what is really needed to take NUFC forward. Shepperd has made fatal errors time and time again, why does everyone say that this is his last season to get it right, it should have been right years ago and it only shows his gross incompetence when it comes to managing a PLC. I would like to think that we could attract a high profile manager with a proven track record to this "big" club of ours, but looking from a manger's perspective you would have to be pretty desperate to work for FS!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieMandias Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I think Roeder would be a really crap DOF. Quite apart from the fact that he has no relevant experience to prepare him for the role and hasn't achieved enough to earn the respect of the kind of managers (good, experienced ones) that would hopefully be working under him, he also doesn't seem to shine in the transfer market, evidently has no scouting network, doesn't even seem to have enough contacts to recruit a credible coaching staff, doesn't seem a strong enough character to hold his ground against inevitable interference from Shepherd... This I agree with, however: I would like to think that we could attract a high profile manager with a proven track record to this "big" club of ours, but looking from a manger's perspective you would have to be pretty desperate to work for FS!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieMandias Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I was very happy when we appointed GR head of the academy, however. Seemed a great man for that job. Now we've lost him in that role, alas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Fair enough. I like his forward thinking ideas and seem to grasp that he has long term plans that he could implement, just the feeling I get.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superior Acuña Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I probably agree with the original poster. Though i think it's a bit extreme, and there's no reason why we have to take a big dive. Don't get too mad if we finish like 12th, but i think any even half decent team can be looking at like 8th. The frustrating thing is letting gems like owen go, who we did so well to get. I think the best would be to tell them the plan, they stay for a year or 2, and if they think we'll succeed in our goal, they may stay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 The concept of resigning ourselves to mediocrity for a few seasons with a view to kicking on from that is fundamentally flawed. If you resign yourself to mediocrity, it becomes ingrained. We will be mediocre long term UNLESS we do something about it short term. You don't get long term success by settling for mediocrity in the short term. How many transitional seasons have we had in a row now? And what has it done for us? We're going backwards fast. Major surgery is required on the squad and on the coaching team. Now I'm not going to turn this into a thread that has a go at Shepherd, but I'm going to make the following observation: If he cannot see the depth of change that is required at the club, and if he doesn't start the ball rolling on some pretty major changes this summer, then a) we are going nowhere, and b) you would have to seriously question his ability to run a club of this size. I'm not going to sit here and say that I know who can do the job better than him, or claim that I could sort things out, as I recognise that it is a mammoth task. But if he shies away from it and settles for things as they are, we are fucked long term. The club is haemorhaging (sp) fans at the minute, we are now at a point where ALL of the good will built up in the Keegan and Robson eras is now completely drained, and this will be reflected in season ticket sales in the summer. Now I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of that or kick off a soopafan debate, but people are going to walk away from NUFC this summer unless they see some sort of infrastructure for success being established. We heard before Roeder got the job about how Shepherd knew that big changes were needed and how there was no way he was going to get the managerial appointment wrong, and ultimately he has. He now has to bite the bullet and (for the second time in a row) sack a manager who should never have got the job in the first place. This time though, he needs to have undergone proper due diligence to find a replacement with a vision and with the ability to make it a reality. Easier said than done, but seriously, if we just allow this situation as it stands to continue, we are going to stagnate further. This summer is massive for Freddy Shepherd and for NUFC. We said the same last year, but it's absolutely critical that as a club we start getting things right. Starting with giving Roeder his job at the academy back and sourcing a replacement. Fuck me gently, Gemmill in big post shocker! Spot on analysis BTW Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I'm not sure resigning ourselves to mid-table mediocrity and Premiership survival for the next few seasons is the way forward. If that's our target then we're setting dangerously low goals. Top 4 next season is almost certainly beyond us but with a good manager and some wisely spent money we could be challenging for, if possibly not achieving, a Top 4 finish within 2 years. Take Spurs 3 years ago. They were much like us, struggling with some good players but no real direction. They get a good manager and a few good signings and bam, they're one dodgy dinner away from a CL spot. Shay is a top keeper, and Krul looks to be a potential succesor. So we're set in goals. Taylor I believe can be a good defender if he isn't stuck with the likes of Bramble for a partner. A couple of good full backs and a solid CB can be got if we have 15-20m to spend on them. We've got two very promising wingers in N'Zogbia and Milner, and in Parker we have a player who can do a job if moved back to being a DM. What we desperately need is a Scholes, Fabregas type player, someone to really make us tick in the middle of the field. That player will be hard, and likely expensive, to find but if we find him our midfield could be quite good, with Dyer, Duff and Butt also capable of contributing too. Emre would be able to, but I'd expect he'll be gone in the summer. Then add a bigger, more physical striker to give us a different option to Owen and Martins up front and we'd be pretty good tbh, assuming we get a good manager. I reckon all that could be bought by the start of the season after next. Obviously it won't be easy and odds are we won't get it done, but I don't buy into the idea that we're f***** for the next few years and should go about dismantling the team and starting over. We just need a good manager. Re: Spurs. They didn't simply get a good manager and a few good signings, they were taken-over by ENIC in 2001, who came in with a proper plan for the club and money to back it with. If Spurs still had Sugar I'd be highly dubious that they'd even be in the Premiership, let alone near the top of it. However, that's not to be said ENIC got it right straight away, either. Not saying this will happen at NUFC, but I'm just saying that Spurs didn't "just" get a good manager and made some good signings. In fact, ENIC seemed to take a while to "strike it lucky" with Jol, after the Santini debacle - but they certainly seemed to have a vision for the club and backed it with cash. As Gemmill has said, we're looking for some of that from Shepherd this summer, because at the minute everything about the club is being questioned from all angles. I never said they "just" got a good manager tbh. But you get the point anyway, they went from being mired in mid-table mediocrity to being CL contenders within two seasons. So everyone saying we're doomed to the midtable for the foreseeable future and that we should resign ourselves to it are being too negative in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeToon Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 A few responses make me feel I should clarify my OP... The concept of resigning ourselves to mediocrity for a few seasons with a view to kicking on from that is fundamentally flawed. If you resign yourself to mediocrity, it becomes ingrained. We will be mediocre long term UNLESS we do something about it short term. You don't get long term success by settling for mediocrity in the short term. I'm not sure resigning ourselves to mid-table mediocrity and Premiership survival for the next few seasons is the way forward. If that's our target then we're setting dangerously low goals. Maybe "resign" was the wrong word to use. I'm not suggesting that we accept mid-table as our highest aspiration and leave it at that. I'm saying that instead of focusing on too much at once, trying to halfway-fix all our problems with the idea that we can challenge for the top next season, it's a better use of the next few seasons to concentrate on fully fixing our biggest weakness one step at a time and make our League position a secondary concern. I don't think mediocrity becomes ingrained at all, unless you have a manager and team who accepts their current level of play as all they can attain, and I'm not suggesting that survival should be our target. There's a huge difference between saying "We're just not good enough for the top" and saying "We're not good enough right now, so let's stop deluding ourselves into thinking we are and do what we have to in order change that." How many transitional seasons have we had in a row now? And what has it done for us? We're going backwards fast. Major surgery is required on the squad and on the coaching team. Now I'm not going to turn this into a thread that has a go at Shepherd, but I'm going to make the following observation: If he cannot see the depth of change that is required at the club, and if he doesn't start the ball rolling on some pretty major changes this summer, then a) we are going nowhere, and b) you would have to seriously question his ability to run a club of this size. I'm not going to sit here and say that I know who can do the job better than him, or claim that I could sort things out, as I recognise that it is a mammoth task. But if he shies away from it and settles for things as they are, we are fucked long term. The club is haemorhaging (sp) fans at the minute, we are now at a point where ALL of the good will built up in the Keegan and Robson eras is now completely drained, and this will be reflected in season ticket sales in the summer. Now I'm not going to get into the rights and wrongs of that or kick off a soopafan debate, but people are going to walk away from NUFC this summer unless they see some sort of infrastructure for success being established. We heard before Roeder got the job about how Shepherd knew that big changes were needed and how there was no way he was going to get the managerial appointment wrong, and ultimately he has. He now has to bite the bullet and (for the second time in a row) sack a manager who should never have got the job in the first place. This time though, he needs to have undergone proper due diligence to find a replacement with a vision and with the ability to make it a reality. Easier said than done, but seriously, if we just allow this situation as it stands to continue, we are going to stagnate further. This summer is massive for Freddy Shepherd and for NUFC. We said the same last year, but it's absolutely critical that as a club we start getting things right. Starting with giving Roeder his job at the academy back and sourcing a replacement. I don't disagree with anything you say here. The reason we've had so many ineffective transitional seasons is because we keep appointing new managers. The only way we're going to get enough stability to fix the problems with the club is by keeping the same manager for the entire restructuring. Otherwise, we'll keep doing what we have been, when every new manager comes in and tries to completely change things, only to get sacked halfway through and replaced by a new manager with a completely different plan to change things. Stability is what we need, and for that to happen, we need to be damn sure we have the right manager lined up. The decision about whether to replace Roeder after this season, and who to replace him with, is absolutely essential for the future of NUFC. Top 4 next season is almost certainly beyond us but with a good manager and some wisely spent money we could be challenging for, if possibly not achieving, a Top 4 finish within 2 years. Take Spurs 3 years ago. They were much like us, struggling with some good players but no real direction. They get a good manager and a few good signings and bam, they're one dodgy dinner away from a CL spot. Shay is a top keeper, and Krul looks to be a potential succesor. So we're set in goals. Taylor I believe can be a good defender if he isn't stuck with the likes of Bramble for a partner. A couple of good full backs and a solid CB can be got if we have 15-20m to spend on them. We've got two very promising wingers in N'Zogbia and Milner, and in Parker we have a player who can do a job if moved back to being a DM. What we desperately need is a Scholes, Fabregas type player, someone to really make us tick in the middle of the field. That player will be hard, and likely expensive, to find but if we find him our midfield could be quite good, with Dyer, Duff and Butt also capable of contributing too. Emre would be able to, but I'd expect he'll be gone in the summer. Then add a bigger, more physical striker to give us a different option to Owen and Martins up front and we'd be pretty good tbh, assuming we get a good manager. I reckon all that could be bought by the start of the season after next. Obviously it won't be easy and odds are we won't get it done, but I don't buy into the idea that we're f***** for the next few years and should go about dismantling the team and starting over. We just need a good manager. You're more optimistic than I am, but only by a few seasons... Shay is a top keeper, and Krul looks promising, agreed. I'd like to see Krul loaned out somewhere where he can get a season starting in goal to really build up his experience. Taylor may have the potential to be good if he keeps his head about him, but even if we bring in new fullbacks and a new CB AND they all work well together, that still leaves us with nothing on the bench, praying that none of our defenders pick up an injury. I'm not content with Carr, Baba, Bramble, and Ramage as backup, and I don't think we can bring in more than 3 quality defenders in a window. Nobby's done great at RB, but how many more years does he have in him? He's not the future for us, and we should look for more. N'Zogbia and Milner have a lot of potential, though neither one is good enough right now to challenge for the top. Zog's been completely unsettled by Duff's arrival and his own injuries and needs a long run in to get it back. Milner's been great when he's on, but he's still got some rough edges on him. I rate Parker more than a lot of others on here, but he's definitely a waste as an attacking midfielder and probably shouldn't be captain, either. Butt has been miles apart this season from the past, but the same concerns over Nobby apply. He's not going to last. Dyer has moments of brilliance but equal moments of utter crap, same for Emre. I think the main problem with our midfield is that they don't function as a whole because we don't have a real style of play. We sort of go out and try whatever might work and as a result, we look disjointed and inept. I'd agree that a Scholes/Fabregas type would help pull things together, and more than anything, our midfield this year has suffered from poor selection rather than a true lack of quality. Midfield is the least of our problems, player-wise, but needs a bit of work coaching-wise. And again, we're short of quality options on the wing if Milner or Zog were to get injured, unless Duff finds his form real quick. Dyer doesn't like playing on the wing, Emre's not all that great wide, and Luque... I'm not going to stir up that hornet's nest again, but I wouldn't put him on the wing based on current form. Pattison has looked terrible the few chances he's had this season. I'd say we need another right winger and maybe another left, if we give up on Duff. Owen and Martins are a potentially great partnership and a potential disaster, at once. It'll be impossible to judge until we see if Owen comes back at full or not and see if Martins can improve his positional play and his first touch. IF they work out, they'd be a strike force that could set the League on fire. Who knows if Shola will improve now that his dodgy hip is fixed, but ultimately he'll probably have to go. So we'd need at least one big-man type to work for the long-ball/crossing game, plus another backup, as Sib is okay for what he is, but not what we ultimately want. So that's a lot of players we'd need to really and totally fix our weaknesses. 2-LB (1 starter, 1 backup) 2-RB (1 starter, 1 backup) 2-CB (1 starter, 1 backup) 1-DM (backup, to eventually replace Butt) 1-RM (backup for Milner) 1-LM (backup for Zog, if we drop Duff) 1-CM (Scholes/Fab type) 1-ST (Big-man type for options) + maybe 1 more ST to replace Shola That's without any of our starters leaving, and we've got a few that might not want to stick around if we're not challenging for Europe consistently. Way too much to do in one window, not to mention that there's more to do than just finding and bringing in players. We've also got to organize our link-up play between the defense and midfield, tighten up midifeld play and stop giving away posession so easily, and give our attack some teeth and form. So all I'm saying is to focus on one area per season, get it right, and move on to the next. Couldn't agree more that we need a good manager to pull this off. And with a really, really good one, it's possible that a few fullbacks, a center-half, and a midfield organizer would send us back into contention in one or two seasons, but I think it'll take about 4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superior Acuña Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I don't think Yankee means "resign". I think he means go for it, but accept we may be midtable for a few seasons while we build from the foundations - be patient, don't think it's failing because we're midtable for a couple of years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Invicta_Toon Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 2-LB (1 starter, 1 backup) 2-RB (1 starter, 1 backup) 2-CB (1 starter, 1 backup) 1-DM (backup, to eventually replace Butt) 1-RM (backup for Milner) 1-LM (backup for Zog, if we drop Duff) 1-CM (Scholes/Fab type) 1-ST (Big-man type for options) + maybe 1 more ST to replace Shola remember the good old days when we used to sign a net 12 players every year... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 No way am I going to read all of that. However, I do hope writing it was cathartic for you. Trying to fit in with the TT crowd again, mate? Anything with any depth to it and more than a couple of sentences and your mind goes into a spin? (Note the smiley thing acting as a clue) *Trolling* You do know about the new rule, right? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 2-LB (1 starter, 1 backup) 2-RB (1 starter, 1 backup) 2-CB (1 starter, 1 backup) 1-DM (backup, to eventually replace Butt) 1-RM (backup for Milner) 1-LM (backup for Zog, if we drop Duff) 1-CM (Scholes/Fab type) 1-ST (Big-man type for options) + maybe 1 more ST to replace Shola remember the good old days when we used to sign a net 12 players every year... He did say that it wouldn't all happen in one window, you big goon. Very good read, I thought. Found myself agreeing with a lot of the things that YT mentioned. Not all of it, but a lot of it made sense and it was well-written as well. However, no team ever "totally fixes their weaknesses", there are no perfect teams (obviously). Although we should strive for perfection as a club I think we should be prioritising things, first and foremost, which is where most of the recent debate about the summer transfer window has come from. There is nobody saying we don't need to sign a few/a lot of players, it's just which players and for what positions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 There is no gaurantee obviously but if you put a Nova 1.1 into an F1 race you aint gonna come close are you? Souness was clearly a poor choice and Roeder was the no hassle option. No ambition and we basically got what we paid for. Wrong again. On both counts. The club got what it could afford, after the bankrolling of Souness to the tune of nearly £50m and the years of ambition shown for well over a decade now, the club having gone through a massive outlay on players by backing successive managers. Previous managers with factually indisputable winning track records have been appointed and backed, showing huge ambition by the board. But they made a mistake with Souness and the money was wasted. The club now needs to stablislise before they are able to have another crack at it and that's the bottom line. The current board has the ambition to try to do that. Bringing in a top class manager with a huge winning track record would have seen someone demanding massive transfer funds to rebuild the team that is more than likely just not there. Learn to live with reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now