Martins or Gudjohnsen?

[ohmelads]

Gudjohnsen is light years above Martins technically. He'd be of more benefit to the team imo.

 

He is lightyears ahead of Martins technically, that's true. Much better creatively with more vision as well.

 

But Martins is way ahead of him in goalscoring, pace, strength, shooting, dribbling, and last but not least he's much younger.

 

Bottom line is, Martins will get you far more goals and force defenders to sit back due to his pace, but he'll lose the ball and frustrate you as well. Gudjohnsen will sit deep and ensure more possession and will create more goals, but won't score as much. All depends what we need more.

 

I'm a big Gudjohnsen fan, but he doesn't score nearly enough goals and I think Mourinho had the right idea when he played him in attacking midfield where he can use his touch, vision and creativity to set up others. I'd be happy enough playing him there ourselves, but I wouldn't want to lose Martins to get him. I think in a 4-3-3 both could play in the same team.

[midds]

Gudjohnsen is light years above Martins technically. He'd be of more benefit to the team imo.

 

He is lightyears ahead of Martins technically, that's true. And creatively too.

 

But Martins is way ahead of him in goalscoring, pace, strength, shooting, dribbling, and last but not least he's much younger.

 

Fair enough, but I think he'd get very close to the same number of goals as Martins if he was played a bit further up front.

 

In short, Gudjohnsen can do what Martins can do but not the other way round. Gudjohnsen is by far the better, rounded player.

[ohmelads]

Fair enough, but I think he'd get very close to the same number of goals as Martins if he was played a bit further up front.

 

In short, Gudjohnsen can do what Martins can do but not the other way round. Gudjohnsen is by far the better, rounded player.

 

Gudjohnsen can't do what Martins can do. They're two totally different players while one is 28 years old and the other is 22. He'll never get as many goals as Martins, but he'll keep possession and create a lot more openings, while chipping in with a few goals himself.

 

Here's his scoring record for the past 4 seasons:

 

Gudjohnsen

Age: 28

06-07  Barcelona      5 Goals, 25 Games

05-06 Chelsea 2 Goals, 26 Games

04-05 Chelsea 12 Goals, 38 Games

03-04 Chelsea 6 Goals, 26 Games

 

Martins

Age: 22

06-07 Newcastle United 11 Goals, 33 Games

05-06 Inter Milan               9 Goals, 28 Games

04-05 Inter Milan               11 Goals, 31 Games

03-04 Inter Milan               7 Goals, 25 Games

 

Consider that Martins is still very young, and that many of those are sub appearances for Inter, and you can see that he'll always be a better goalscorer than Gudjohnsen. But Gudjohnsen will always be a better creator.

 

From what I've seen of Gudjohnsen I honestly believe his most effective position in a 4-3-3/4-5-1 is attacking midfield. Because of Guddy's strengths, you want him in a position where he'll see a lot of the ball with players in front of him. I'd love to see Gudjohnsen and Martins in the same team, with Martins wide left, Owen wide right, Viduka up front and Gudjohnsen the AM whose job it is to pick the ball up between midfield and defence and make something happen.

[Shak]

Gudjohnsen is light years above Martins technically. He'd be of more benefit to the team imo.

 

He is lightyears ahead of Martins technically, that's true. Much better creatively with more vision as well.

 

But Martins is way ahead of him in goalscoring, pace, strength, shooting, dribbling, and last but not least he's much younger.

 

Bottom line is, Martins will get you far more goals and force defenders to sit back due to his pace, but he'll lose the ball and frustrate you as well. Gudjohnsen will sit deep and ensure more possession and will create more goals, but won't score as much. All depends what we need more.

 

I'm a big Gudjohnsen fan, but he doesn't score nearly enough goals and I think Mourinho had the right idea when he played him in attacking midfield where he can use his touch, vision and creativity to set up others. I'd be happy enough playing him there ourselves, but I wouldn't want to lose Martins to get him. I think in a 4-3-3 both could play in the same team.

 

I reckon Mourinho playing him in midfield was much more to do with the fact that he likes a big powerhouse (ala Drogba) up front with two fast winger types either side of him, and a generally direct style of play in the final third.

 

Gudjohnsen is completely unsuited to either of those roles so midfield was the only place he figured to get a game.

 

Played in the same position I reckon there'd be little difference in their goal return tbh. Gudjohnsen is a far better finisher than Oba, who still suffers from mass panic every so often in front of goal and is just as likely to hit the corner flag as the back of the net sometimes, while Gudjohnsen is a composed player.

 

Dunno where this myth that Martins is a good dribbler has come from either, I've not seen it. With his pace though, there are a lot of defenders he can just knock the ball twenty yards past and go after it and there'll be no stopping him. The fact that he at no point figured that out last season does concern me a bit, as it doesn't say a lot about his footballing brain.

 

I can recall a number of times I saw Oba with the ball in counter-attacks last year when he was one on one with the last man and it was just begging to be knocked into space and then thrashed at goal, only for Oba to try something fancy with the outside of the boot or something.

 

Still, with so many areas where it should be theoretically easy for him to improve, I hope we keep hold of him.

[ohmelads]

Played in the same position I reckon there'd be little difference in their goal return tbh.

 

Gudjohnsen has spent more than 90% of his career playing up front as the second striker, just like Martins at Inter. They do play in the same position but they're totally different players and Martins was always a better goalscorer even at a young age. Gudjohnsen has never been a remotely prolific striker and never will be.

 

Mourinho's decision to play Gudjohnsen in AM may have had something to do with trying to accommodate him, but his performances there were brilliant and at the time I remember we were all calling Mourinho a tactical genius. Given his poor scoring record but excellent touch and vision it makes sense to give him a deeper role, espescially if you're playing a 4-5-1. He doesn't have the legs or ability to beat a man that you need out wide, nor the build to play the Drogba position. If we bought him for a 4-5-1 he'd have to play in midfield for us IMO.

 

And I saw Gudjohnsen miss some howlers for Barcelona last season, where he always played up front. He's not as composed as you think, which reflects in his poor scoring record.

[Rich]

06-07  Newcastle  11 Goals, 33 Games

05-06  Inter Milan  9 Goals, 28 Games

04-05  Inter Milan  11 Goals, 31 Games

03-04  Inter Milan  7 Goals, 24 Games

 

Doesn't exactly look great either, like, although it's obviously "better".

 

Posting stats like that is utterly naff though, because like you did I've simply took the league games he was involved in whether he started/was subbed/was a sub and used that as my measuring stick. No mention of circumstance or anything, just that Martins has scored 38 goals in 116 league games over four years, for different teams and quite probably playing in different positions.

 

Whereas Gudjohnsen has scored 25 goals in 113 league games over the past four seasons according to Soccernet, whether he be a starter/subbed/a sub himself, etc. Utterly useless, basically.

 

Anyone who's seen Gudjohnsen play knows he can score goals. For example, in 01/02 he scored 23 goals in 43 games for Chelsea - which sounds fucking brilliant when that's all you say to quantify that he's a good finisher.

 

It's obviously not something we can "measure" too accurately, but I am inclined to agree that playing with exactly the same team-mates and in exactly the same games as each other, the goals outcome wouldn't look too different. It's why the choice between them is so difficult.

 

To expand the debate further: I think Gudjohnsen would be a better partner for each of our 3 other "senior" strikers than Martins would, but again how can we know for sure? As long as we have one or the other I'll be happy, but I still hope we keep Obafemi for the age/potential factor.

[ohmelads]

Gudjohnsen's best ever season in terms of 'goalscoring' was 6 years ago when he scored 14 league goals. Since then his scoring record has consistently been very poor, averaging something like 7 goals a season. I'm not big on statistics but come on, he's 28 now, it's clear he will never be a consistent goalscorer.

 

For argument's sake, let's assume 4-3-3/4-5-1 is going to be the standard formation we employ next season: where would you put Gudjohnsen? Do you think he has the legs of Martins and Owen to play out side? Or the build of Viduka to play the target man? As someone already said, there's a reason Mourinho put him in midfield, he's simply not made as a striker for that formation.

 

I want us to sign Gudjohnsen, but for the midfield. He has no place skinning defenders on the wing or holding the ball up as the lone striker because he can't do it, and anyone who thinks he can is mistaken I'm afraid.

[Shak]

Gudjohnsen will never be a truly top-end goalscorer, obviously, but the amount more that he contributes apart from goalscoring makes him the better option for me.

 

When he's not scoring goals Oba isn't really up to much at all, is he? There's always the threat of his pace, but as teams get used to him they'll know they can funnell him into wide areas, knowing he hasn't got the skills to beat a man or put in an effective cross to be of any danger in wide areas.

[Rich]

Just to be an arsehole I'm going to do your post from the other side of the fence, because that last sentence of yours has narked me:

 

Martins' best ever season in terms of 'goalscoring' was 3 years ago when he scored 11 league goals.

 

For argument's sake, let's assume that 4-4-2 or 3-5-2 is going to be the standard formation we employ next season: where would you put Martins? Do you think he can effectively partner Michael Owen in the Premiership? Do you think he's good enough to oust Owen from the starting line-up to partner Viduka? As someone has probably already said, there's a reason why Inter Milan sold him to us, he simply is not good enough to be a first-choice striker for a "big club".

 

Martins has no place alongside Viduka because Michael Owen scores more goals than him and he has no place alongside Michael Owen because the two will not work effectively in tandem and anyone who thinks they can is mistaken I'm afraid.

[Rich]

Gudjohnsen's best ever season in terms of 'goalscoring' was 6 years ago when he scored 14 league goals. Since then his scoring record has consistently been very poor, averaging something like 7 goals a season. I'm not big on statistics but come on, he's 28 now, it's clear he will never be a consistent goalscorer.

 

For argument's sake, let's assume 4-3-3/4-5-1 is going to be the standard formation we employ next season: where would you put Gudjohnsen? Do you think he has the legs of Martins and Owen to play out side? Or the build of Viduka to play the target man? As someone already said, there's a reason Mourinho put him in midfield, he's simply not made as a striker for that formation.

 

I want us to sign Gudjohnsen, but for the midfield. He has no place skinning defenders on the wing or holding the ball up as the lone striker because he can't do it, and anyone who thinks he can is mistaken I'm afraid.

 

Howay man, as I've just done with that sarcastic post there you've just changed the argument altogether and then said that me, Shak and Midds are "mistaken" for thinking Gudjohnsen can "skin people on the wing or hold the ball up as a lone striker" when none of us were talking about using Gudjohnsen in the speculated 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation!

 

Apologies if this comes across as overly-confrontational but I'm not having that. The last I heard was us lot discussing the merits of Gudjohnsen and Martins, based on what we'd seen of them with our own eyes, and whether Gudjohnsen would really score that many less than Martins would for us if he was used in the same/a similar way. You were debating about them both being "second strikers" a few minutes ago... and now they're either up front alone or on the wing!

 

The debate then got diluted by the introduction of some statistics which didn't tell anything near a "whole story" about their goalscoring records over the past four years and then you completely changed the scenario!

 

I'd have been happy to "agree to disagree" with you along with Midds and Shak, I'm sure, but to be told "you're all mistaken, I'm afraid" is a trifle cheeky when none of us were actually talking about using Gudjohnsen in the way you assume he's going to be used if he does come here.

[Shak]

That as close as you'll ever see Rich come to getting confrontational, making sure to apologise for it along the way.

[midds]

 

Claws...........out!

[Rich]

If I didn't think OML was such a mint poster generally I'd have handbagged the bastard already!

 

As for me being non-confrontational, pffffft!

[Guest BooBoo]

If we can offload Oba for £13mill and get in Eidur I will be quite content.

[tmonkey]

Would rather keep Martins in this instance because Gudjohnsen is too different a type of forward to warrant letting someone of Martins' potential go. Assume Martins does leave and Gudjohnsen comes in - wed be completely reliant on Owen staying fit for some penetration/movement/pace up front, because the rest would be pretty much in the slow category (Ameobi, Viduka are considerably slow by Premiership standards). Owen has pretty much proven how (un)wise it is to rely on Owen's fitness.

 

Im hesitating to say this, but I cant help but feel that Gudjohnsen is overrated somewhat. He hit good form for Chelsea a few years ago, but hasnt looked the same player since. Theres no denying that he is a good player, but I think that comes more from being technically competent and sound in all areas rather than excelling at any of them - I dont agree with Ohmelads' assessment of his vision and passing abilities, which imo are just about "above average", whilst I also think hes an average midfielder and is alot better up front. Maybe this opinion is based on a judging a player's form when he hasnt been playing many games, so theres good reason to believe that Gudjohnsen is still a top player and would show this were he used more often, hence I would be pretty happy if we signed him, but not at the cost of seeing someone like Martins turn into a lethal jack-in-the-box, jack-of-all-trades type forward for a team above us, something which even his biggest detractors would surely acknowledge is an actual possibility.

[LoveItIfWeBeatU]

Re the Arsenal link, would they pay Oba more than we do already? It would piss off a lot of their other players.  Would he'd go there for less just for CL?

I want to keep Martins. Without him, Owen would be our only fast striker.

Having said that, I'd get rid of Martins if it was true that he wanted to be paid as much as Owen.

 

Arsenal aren't well know for paying huge wages so I doubt they'd pay him more than we do. Martins isn't guaranteed a first team start every time at Arsenal anymore than he would be at NUFC.

[ohmelads]

Wasn't meaning to come across all condescending, although now that I look at it, it does appear that way.

 

Nevertheless, it wasn't a rhetorical/sarcastic question. I think the issue of where to play Gudjohnsen is a particularly relevant one, and even more so if we're playing Viduka alone up front. If you're going to compare Martins to Owen, then you must compare Gudjohnsen the same way, seeing as we're discussing him as a possible replacement for Oba. To answer your question, even if we were to play 4-4-2, we'll still need Martins, absolutely. Otherwise Owen will become our only option for pace up front and I don't want us to put all our eggs into that basket again, we must have a contingency. The reason I asked is because I suspect you would rather not have Gudjohnsen if we're lining up to play 4-5-1. Other than midfield, noone has yet suggested where on earth Gudjohnsen could play in the formation Allardyce has used his entire career. I do find that a bit curious. Are you so certain we'll be playing 4-4-2 next season that this question isn't worth answering?

 

Gudjohnsen can't give us what Martins gives us. Sure enough he'll bring other qualities to the table, but in my view we're in much greater need of the pace, movement and goalscoring abilities of Martins than we are of the technique and creativity of Gudjohnsen. Espescially when two of our strikers are heavy on their feet and the other has barely played a game in two years. I may be wrong about that, but if we lose Martins for Guddy and Owen gets injured, we'll be watching a pretty static forward line. Given Owen's propensity to get crocked, I'm not up for that gamble.

 

We have a nice balance of strikers as things stand. Gudjohnsen's technique and creativity would be a welcome addition, but not at the expense of Martins.

[Guest 22bnw]

Martins scores more than Gudjohnsen and he is younger. They are completely different players but I'd choose Martins.

[Thespence]

Surely more people could argue that Gudjohnsen is the better player right now?

 

He was awesome on the touchline for Barca last year, some of his warm up runs were on a par with Luque's.

[Shak]

Wasn't meaning to come across all condescending, although now that I look at it, it does appear that way.

 

I think the issue of where to play Gudjohnsen is a particularly relevant one. To answer your question, even if we were to play 4-4-2, we'll still need Martins. Otherwise Owen would become our only option for pace up front and I don't want us to put all our eggs into that basket again, we must have a contingency. The reason I asked is because I suspect you would rather not have Gudjohnsen if we're lining up to play 4-5-1. Other than midfield, noone has yet suggested where on earth Gudjohnsen could play in the formation Allardyce has used his entire career. I do find that a bit curious. Are you so certain we'll be playing 4-4-2 next season that this question isn't worth answering?

 

Gudjohnsen can't give us what Martins gives us. Sure enough he'll bring other qualities to the table, but in my view we're in much greater need of the pace, movement and goalscoring abilities of Martins than we are of the technique and creativity of Gudjohnsen. Espescially when two of our strikers are heavy on their feet and the other has barely played a game in two years. I may be wrong about that, but if we lose Martins for Guddy and Owen gets injured, we'll be watching a pretty static forward line. Given Owen's propensity to get crocked, I'm not up for that gamble.

 

We have a nice balance of strikers as things stand. Gudjohnsen's technique and creativity would be a welcome addition, but not at the expense of Martins.

 

Good post and it is very relevant the point you make about the pace.

 

I would expect that if we sell Oba and get Gudjohnsen then we'll look to add another pacey option up front for when Owen isn't fit, as you say. With Gudjohnsen able to play a numbr of roles, he'll get plenty of games in attack or midfield even with another striker brought in to replace Oba.

 

I advocated selling Owen for the reason that we won't be able to play 4-5-1, which is what Allardyce knows best, with him. I reckon we'll be seeing a number of different sytems next season, in which case a guy like Gudjohnsen would be very nice.

[Spider Jerusalem]

Cannot see Wenger going for him as he doesn't seem like an Arsenal type of player - lousy first touch, passing, dribbling abilities.  Has scored some great goals for a nice YouTube video but his overall team play is weak at best.  You can say it was down to the managment if you will, and it was how he was asked to play but you would think that you would have seen at least some sort of ability to do the basics to a level above Sunday league.

 

For a player who is apparently almost as fast as your top class sprinters he is a player who appears very static - almost to a point that he seems to be marking the defender at times.  Watch the likes of Bellamy and they are pulling defenders all over the place - in fact Michael Owen in his few performances showed what a good run could do.

 

Eleven league goals does seem a reasonable return, but when you consider that they were spread over eight matches, and only four of them have come in 2007 he doesn't look overly prolific.  The lad's contribution to matches when he hasn't scored hasn't exactly set the world alight.

 

One of the most damning statistics - no goals at St James since February.  Has he been found out already?

[ohmelads]

Good post and it is very relevant the point you make about the pace.

 

I would expect that if we sell Oba and get Gudjohnsen then we'll look to add another pacey option up front for when Owen isn't fit, as you say. With Gudjohnsen able to play a numbr of roles, he'll get plenty of games in attack or midfield even with another striker brought in to replace Oba.

 

I advocated selling Owen for the reason that we won't be able to play 4-5-1, which is what Allardyce knows best, with him. I reckon we'll be seeing a number of different sytems next season, in which case a guy like Gudjohnsen would be very nice.

 

I would absolutely love to have Gudjohnsen here, I rate him very highly, in fact as tmonkey says I probably overrate him because we've been so starved of players with the kind of deft touch and link up play he has. Problem is I wouldn't know what to do with him, as in a 4-4-2 I like the little and large/quick and strong combo of Viduka and Owen and he'd be the third choice who doesn't have the strength to do Viduka's job nor the pace and finishing to do Owen's job. He's always been a bit neither here nor there which is why, although not many seem to agree with me, the AM position with two other CMs behind gives a good compromise.

 

If, as you say, we replace Martins with Guddy and bring in a quick forward, I think we'll be overstocked with 5 strikers, 3 of them big names. Even accounting for his versatility. For a club of our size to be that overstocked on strikers probably isn't healthy, and I'm not just talking in terms of finances but in terms of maintaining a unified team. Bringing in two players to replace Oba would surely be indicative of how much we'd lost.

[ohmelads]

One of the most damning statistics - no goals at St James since February.  Has he been found out already?

 

Our whole team didn't score a goal at St James since February. He ended the season badly, that's very true, but Berbatov, who is so highly rated by fans across the country, only scored once against a top half team, and much like Oba he had his dry and purple patches. I don't think it's sufficient reason to peddle a young foreigner after his first season in England. You could just as easily say Gudjohnsen has scored 7 goals in the past two years - the same as Owen - and say he too has been "found out".

 

Martins for me is a bit of an enigma. I've rarely ever seen a player of such contrasts. At his worst he gets even the basics all wrong, at his best he's pretty much unstoppable. If he were a few years older I'd say "sell" but I'm willing to take the chance his value dropping a few million to see how he turns out.

[Cajun]

One of the most damning statistics - no goals at St James since February.  Has he been found out already?

 

Our whole team didn't score a goal at St James since February. He ended the season badly. You could just as easily say Gudjohnsen has scored 7 goals in the past two years - the same as Owen - and say he too has been "found out".

 

Martins for me is a bit of an enigma. I've rarely ever seen a player of such contrasts. At his worst he gets even the basics all wrong, at his best he's pretty much unstoppable. If he were a few years older I'd say "sell" but I'm willing to take the chance his value dropping a few million to see how he turns out.

 

Confidence player, things start to go well and he is immense, things start of badly and his performance is shocking. No suprise when the team were playing shit he wasn't performing and when we were at our best (AZ at home) he was a big part of that.

 

Better team is going to equal a better Martins I reckon, 11 premiership goals and 17 in total isn't a bad attempt in a team that didn't have a left side all season and the majority of the time your strike partner is a midfielder (and in Sibs case one that can barely move).

 

Martins deserves one more season at the very least.

[Spider Jerusalem]

One of the most damning statistics - no goals at St James since February.  Has he been found out already?

 

Our whole team didn't score a goal at St James since February. He ended the season badly, that's very true, but Berbatov, who is so highly rated by fans across the country, only scored once against a top half team, and much like Oba he had his dry and purple patches. I don't think it's sufficient reason to peddle a young foreigner after his first season in England. You could just as easily say Gudjohnsen has scored 7 goals in the past two years - the same as Owen - and say he too has been "found out".

 

Martins for me is a bit of an enigma. I've rarely ever seen a player of such contrasts. At his worst he gets even the basics all wrong, at his best he's pretty much unstoppable. If he were a few years older I'd say "sell" but I'm willing to take the chance his value dropping a few million to see how he turns out.

 

Martins had one purple patch - December - scoring six goals.  That's the sort of run that Robbie Elliott went on before he got peddled first time round.  World class striker   

 

I am worried that he has been 'found out' fairly quickly.  Would you take James Beattie as a replacement for Michael Owen?  Kevin Phillips had his season in the sun.  Michael Ricketts.  All strikers touted as the next big thing but  all with extremely short internation careers for some reason.

 

From what I witnessed really do not think that he has what it takes to be a top class striker - one of the great assets is to be able to make an instictive run such Owen v Reading  / Chelsea.  The team was able to pass a through ball for him but incapable of doing it for Martins for almost an entire season?  How did that happen? These are the sort of things that you cannot really coach into a player.  Martins hasn't got it and I'm damned if Shola Ameobi has it!!!!

 

His decision making is dreadful, runs down blind alleys before losing the ball.  But with his passing ability, getting the ball to him if he's not 15 yards out facing goal last season was, to be honest, a waste of the ball.

 

 

Do I think that Gudjonsen is a good replacment? For overall team work then yes?  Goalscoring?  Questionable.  But if Martins has been 'found out' then next season could become a season of diminishing returns....