Argentina - The New Brazil

[ChezGiven]

Just seen the Argentina goals against Mexico, even the penalty was class. Marquez gave it away. The 2nd goal was as ridiculous as the first.

[Flip]

2nd was a beauty by Messi, first though was top class by the keeper dont you think?

[ChezGiven]

2nd was a beauty by Messi, first though was top class by the keeper dont you think?

 

I thought the first was a deft heel just in front of the keeper. It was the flighted in ball that did the keeper.

 

The chip was great but he was in loads of space tbf.

[Flip]

Ok, sorry again for my previous comment. But wow, what does this have to do with either Newcastle United Football Club, Argentina, Brazil or HTT?

 

He sustained his injuries in the Falklands conflict.

 

Oh now i get it.

[ToonCanuck]

don't know if you saw the mexico 0 - argentina 3 match,riquleme,messi and heinze all played great.can't wait for the final on sunday argentina - brazil.

[merlin]

Brazil will ALWAYS be the most consistent WC winners and the most entertaining National side - its in their blood.

May have down spells , but like the Terminator - 'they'll be back!....'

[Sima]

Such cretins bringing war into football

[Flip]

Honestly, i have nothing to do with it SIMA. Dont blame me.

[ohmelads]

Argentina have always been and always will be one of the very best footballing nations.

 

But I think you're overstating the case a little bit in that article Shak. I think Bellers' assessment is a touch more accurate, the Germans matched them all the way and were unfortunate to go behind, while Argentina were fortunate to defeat Mexico with an extra time screamer. I thought Argentina, Germany and France played the best football of the tournament, with Germany the most consistent of all and Italy the luckiest of all.

 

I thought France's performance against Brazil was the best example of how to control a game, Brazil barely had a sniff and rarely have I ever seen Brazil look that desperate. France squeezed the life out of them and hit them where it hurts, changing the pace of the game so suddenly. Zidane toyed with them, slowing things down and then when the guard drops, sliding through a pass or playing in a winger. Brazil didn't play badly that day, France were just superb in every aspect of the game and Zidane produced a masterclass. For me this was the best performance of the tournament, even though it wasn't laden with goals and chances. To do that against such a good Brazil team was more impressive for me than putting six past an average Serbian side.

 

Argentina are beginning to look the business, and their combination of tenacity, tactics and flair bodes well for them. In Messi I think they have potentially the best player in the world of his generation, from his first game at Barcelona you could see this kid was something special. But in international tournaments anything can happen, as any Italian will tell you. Argentina must do it against the very best, not Mexico or Serbia, and they have a chance to show what they're made of against the old enemy, Brazil, in the final.

 

I don't think it's fair to call them the new Brazil because Brazil have their own style of play and so do Argentina. The Argies just look like they have an excellent generation of players and a very balanced squad. I don't think they or Brazil have fundamentally changed their approach to football.

[Thespence]

Such cretins bringing war into football

 

I am hurt.

[Shak]

The "New Brazil" reference was nothing to do with their style of football changing or anything, more a case of how I believe they'll become the new dominant international side with a playing style that everyone wants to emulate.

 

It's not so much that either Brazil or Argentina have changed, it's football itself that has changed. The tempo is higher than ever before, as is the need for players to be tenacious and determined as well as skilled.

 

Missed the Brazil v France game in last year's WC as I was at a gig while on holiday iirc, so can't coment on that unfortunately.

 

I'd disagree with your assesment of the Germany v Argentina game, though. While it was, admittedly, quite nip-tuck until Argentina took the lead, I thought the Argies always looked to have more in the tank and were playing to take the enthusiasm out of the Germans before stepping it up a gear late on. The goal they got was lucky, admittedly, but I feel they would have gone ahead eventually. Once ahead they were all over them and I really didn't see any way back for the Germans barring a lucky goal, which is ultimately what happened.

 

Some fair other points though, and I think a big issue will be who takes Crespo's place as the main striker/goalscroer. I see Mascherano and Cambiasso/Gago leaving them set in the CM roles for years to come, while Riquelme has at least 1 World Cup in him as chief playmaker. If they can find a goalscorer for Tevez and Messi to play off then they'll be sorted.

 

Was Messi's debut the game where he scored the little lob after coming on as a sub? If so, I'd agree you could see that he was a bit special that day, as you say I'd expect he'll be the best player of his generation.

[Newcastle Fan]

Good Edit

[Coxaux]

Brazil won the game by referring back to simple tactics. The tam was filled with lots of tall powerful players to out muscle the small tricky lads from Argentina. They played with plenty of width which was always going to be effective against a narrow Argentina formation. They also appeared at times to ditch the classic Brazilian style and adopt a long ball game which is how the first goal came about. As soon as the second was scored they reverted to their famous counter attacking football picking off the opposition as they search for a way back into the game. They weren't the best to watch but still managed to be very effective and efficient. Dunga deserves lots of credit

 

Just shows you can be as fancy and technical as you want but if you do the basics well your always likely to come out winners.

[Guest Invicta_Toon]

Argentina 7-0

 

just

[merlin]

Brazil's style of play is more predictable - two holding midfielders with attacking full backs - the quality is there but Dunga is out of his depth. It's one thing to win a trophy with Brazil, but you need to win it with exciting football; the nation won't have it any other way. And frankly, the exciting football is not there and I don't see them winning the Copa America.

 

Argentina look so much more powerful and confident than Brazil.

 

I don't think they were complaining after USA '94 mind.

 

Eh. believe it or not we were. We hae never liked Pareira or his team, in fact the 94 champions was elected as Brazils worst team ever to play in a World Cup. Brazil have the two best teams of all time the 1970 world champions and the 2002 world champions. Its a fact!

 

'58 was better than them both.

 

No they were not my friend. 1982 was supposed to be best team with at that time best players in the world like Falcao, Socrates and Zico. Oh god, what a team they had. Problem was they only attacked attacked and attacked. They lost to Italy because they couldnt play defensive football and cause Dino Zoff was a monster that day. 1970 was though the proof that magic does exist. 58' team was good no doubt with players like Vava, Pele (only 17 years old) and Garrincha (better then Maradona and all these other guys, even Pele i would say). 2002 was the example of a team which grew by everygame and had a brilliant attacking football as well as a modern day built defence with big and stron but also technical defenders.

 

COACHHTT/// Honestly ive never heard that much b***s*** in my life. Africa will never overtake Brazil, remember that Africa for many years have been using false info for their players during Olympic games. theyre all 4 years older then what you think. Martins is 28 remember

 

Some great points here, Felipao - agree with nearly all of this.

TOTALLY agree with your assertion that Africa will never overtake Brazil - this has been an old chestnut for years(ever since 74 when Zaire qualified)and all the pundits have been saying this at every WC since - we're still waiting, and we still will be in 20 years' time....!!

I'm a great admirer of Brazilian football & hope they always try to play as they can - its great to watch!

[The Bonk]

Well, that article was total rubbish.  Forza Brasil!!! 

[Beren]

Brazil will ALWAYS be the most consistent WC winners and the most entertaining National side - its in their blood.

May have down spells , but like the Terminator - 'they'll be back!....'

 

Yes and yes!

[Cronky]

 

1982 was supposed to be best team with at that time best players in the world like Falcao, Socrates and Zico. Oh god, what a team they had. Problem was they only attacked attacked and attacked. They lost to Italy because they couldnt play defensive football and cause Dino Zoff was a monster that day. 1970 was though the proof that magic does exist. 58' team was good no doubt with players like Vava, Pele (only 17 years old) and Garrincha (better then Maradona and all these other guys, even Pele i would say). 2002 was the example of a team which grew by everygame and had a brilliant attacking football as well as a modern day built defence with big and stron but also technical defenders.

 

 

The 1982 Brazil was the best I've seen. They seemed to be taking the game to a whole new standard. When they lost to Italy, I've never felt so sad about a team being beaten that I wasn't actually a supporter of. By that stage, maybe a bit of complacency had crept in, and it just showed that, no matter how good you are, anyone can lose a football match.

 

If they'd gone on to win that tournament, they'd be universally acknowledged as the best ever, I'm quite sure of that.

[ohmelads]

Tim Vickery (who always writes excellent columns btw) has done an article on this game on the BBC site:

 

The romantics met the pragmatists in the final of the Copa America.

 

Brazil's 3-0 win means that it was a resounding triumph for the pragmatists.

 

Argentina coach Alfio Basile says again and again that he is not simply interested in winning - it matters to him how the victory is achieved.

 

His critics would argue that he favours 1940s football, but all the way through the tournament right up until the final his side were looking good value in the 21st century.

 

 

Brazil's players have been built for explosion... quick breaks replaced the intricate passing moves of old

 

Their patient passing game was a joy to watch, tiring the opponents and then turning on the talent in the second half.

 

But it failed to spark against Brazil. And it didn't work for the very reasons that led to Brazil abandoning such a style in the 1980s.

 

Argentina were outdone because they were unable to cope with the physical power and the speed on the counter-attack of the Brazilian side - weapons that were used against Brazil in the past, but now work firmly in their favour.

 

Brazilian football was thrown into confusion by the great Holland side of 1974. The Dutch are remembered for their constant inter-changing of positions, but they also put enormous pressure on the opposition when they wanted the ball back.

 

Brazil tried to copy them in 1978 and when that didn't work, they tried to turn the clock back under their last romantic coach, Tele Santana, in 1982 and 1986.

 

The failure of Santana's side left deep scars. Current coach Dunga has referred to them as "specialists in losing."

 

The conclusion was drawn that the physical and tactical development of the game made it much more difficult for a team to play its way through packed defences as Brazil had done in the past.

 

Scared of the physical strength of the Europeans, the Brazilians set out to match it. Nowadays they claim their physical preparation specialists are the best in the world. Brazilian players have become bigger and stronger.

 

When they finally faced Germany in a World Cup match, in the 2002 final, they did so at no physical disadvantage. On Sunday in Maracaibo they won the key 50-50 balls, especially the one in which Julio Baptista was able to free Daniel Alves to cross for the vital second goal.

 

Brazil's players have been built for explosion and the style of play reflected this. Quick breaks replaced the intricate passing moves of old.

 

Brazil had five shots to Argentina's eight and lost the corner count eight to four, but they won the game because the pace of their counter-attack was too much for the Argentina defence.

 

And because at the other end Brazil were able to hold Argentina with a midfield based more on lung power than finesse.

 

Defence and midfield stayed compact, Mineiro and Josue kept snapping away, and Argentina were stopped by fair means, and by foul.

 

Brazil's total of 37 fouls was high, but the objective was achieved. The niggling stoppages prevented Argentina from building up their rhythm.

 

But pragmatic does not necessarily mean defensive - as arch-pragmatist Dunga showed when injury meant he had to substitute Elano in the first half.

 

Brazil were already a goal up, and some coaches might have been tempted to bring on holding midfielder Fernando.

 

Instead Dunga introduced flying right-back Daniel Alves and played him on the right of midfield.

 

It was his pace on the counter that brought Brazil their second and third goals and puts another cup in their bulging trophy cabinet.