Have we actually got the wrong strikers for the 433?

[Guest sicko2ndbest]

Michael Owen and 433 do not go together and never will. The only reaon it works without a 'big un' at Man u is because Rooney drops off deep to receive the ball, and Man u play top attacking football that dosnt rely on knock downs Kevin Davies style.

 

Even Liverpool have now referred back to a more conventional 4-4-2 using Kuyt and Torres as their main 2. When Benitez first arrived he also favoured a 4-5-1/4-3-3 approach that got him success at Valencia when he played Carew up on his own.

 

If you are the 2 supporting players up top in a 4-3-3 you need one of pace/crossing ability/skilful dribbling, all of which MO is not renowned for

 

Man u- Ronaldo - Giggs

Bolton - Diouf - Anelka

Chelsea - Malouda - SWP

 

MArtins and Milner along with Duff and Zog are far more suited to this position than MO, and Viduka and Ameobi are far more suited to being the front man. So unless Big Sam reverts back to a 4-4-2 i dont see much hope for MO.

 

 

[Guest alex]

Owen did play in a 4-3-3 with Heskey and Anelka to good effect at Liverpool. Fair enough, it was a while ago.

[Guest Hoop Blah]

Michael Owen and 433 do not go together and never will. The only reaon it works without a 'big un' at Man u is because Rooney drops off deep to receive the ball, and Man u play top attacking football that dosnt rely on knock downs Kevin Davies style.

 

Even Liverpool have now referred back to a more conventional 4-4-2 using Kuyt and Torres as their main 2. When Benitez first arrived he also favoured a 4-5-1/4-3-3 approach that got him success at Valencia when he played Carew up on his own.

 

If you are the 2 supporting players up top in a 4-3-3 you need one of pace/crossing ability/skilful dribbling, all of which MO is not renowned for

 

Man u- Ronaldo - Giggs

Bolton - Diouf - Anelka

Chelsea - Malouda - SWP

 

MArtins and Milner along with Duff and Zog are far more suited to this position than MO, and Viduka and Ameobi are far more suited to being the front man. So unless Big Sam reverts back to a 4-4-2 i dont see much hope for MO.

 

 

 

Too much Championship Manager for you I think!

 

I'd agree that your forwards don't quite suit the Bolton 4-3-3 Sam used up there BUT I'd suggest you wait and see how he developes the team before jumping to too many conclusions.

 

The thing with 4-3-3/4-5-1 is that he knows it inside out and it allows for more cover for mistakes and poor play by players picking up a new system and new regime.  When he has a few more of his signings available, and the squad start to learn exactly what Sam wants them to do I think you'll see a new system start to evolve.

 

Either way you've got an interesting season ahead of you.

[Northern Monkey]

Owen did play in a 4-3-3 with Heskey and Anelka to good effect at Liverpool. Fair enough, it was a while ago.

 

For how long did that system work? I seem to remember Heskey doing better than i thought he would, but genuinely i don't recall the system(s) they used.

 

 

[Guest alex]

Owen did play in a 4-3-3 with Heskey and Anelka to good effect at Liverpool. Fair enough, it was a while ago.

 

For how long did that system work? I seem to remember Heskey doing better than i thought he would, but genuinely i don't recall the system(s) they used.

 

 

I think it was about 1/2 a season when Anelka was on loan. I remember them battering us at their place 3-0 although that possibly wasn't the toughest test for that system.

[Guest mugcheese]

I just read this quote from Allardyce: "I can tell you this - I'll be playing the best two strikers in the best form at the time and the others will have to be patient." Maybe this suggests we'll eventually adopt 442.

[Northern Monkey]

Owen did play in a 4-3-3 with Heskey and Anelka to good effect at Liverpool. Fair enough, it was a while ago.

 

For how long did that system work? I seem to remember Heskey doing better than i thought he would, but genuinely i don't recall the system(s) they used.

 

 

I think it was about 1/2 a season when Anelka was on loan. I remember them battering us at their place 3-0 although that possibly wasn't the toughest test for that system.

 

no, i don't think that many teams have historically had us down as "hard to score against" too often!!

 

As for OUR formation, the simple fact is that our forwards seem (to me) to be more suited to a 442, and we are not a big enough or good enough squad to have ther players to fit a system, it needs to be the other way around - i'd rather have a system that Owen did well in than one where he didn't.

[The College Dropout]

I remember over the Summer when Allardyce was first put in charge there was a feeling that the Bolton way was just a means to and ends because of his limited resources and now he was in charge of a better club he would change his ways and play properly. That seems to have gone right out of the window and he's now turning you into the new Bolton. Personally I don't think its on - there's a thread about "Was Gartside right?" or something like that about how his style drove fans away. While I believe thats a half truth (IMO it only drove away fair weather fans who had no idea what life was like in the 1st division and only turned up once they were in the premiership) I still don't think it has a future at a club like Newcastle where standards are much higher. And now you have the wrong strikers to play this ugly system. This notion that there is no place for a player of the calibre of Owen seems absolutely ludricous to me. How can you force out a player like that but yet pay for and play someone as limited as Alan f****** Smith. IMO Sam has to change his ways and play a system that will suit your good players.

 

 

Everyone seems to agree that this is an excellent post.

 

I expected Sam to bring in some of his Bolton philosophies and adapt them to us, for example making us a taller side, set-pieces and all the back room stuff. However he's simply trying to make us Bolton and I'm dissapointed.

 

I don't think ANY of our top strikers can adapt very well to a 4-3-3. Viduka's a big lad but he's best with the ball at his feet. Owen can go 90 mins. simply running off-the-ball trying to find space and Oba's only really useful in the final 1/3rd.

 

At home a feel the fans will get on Sam's back if it's 0-0 and half an hour gone whilst playing the long football.

[Yorkie]

What, because we drew 0-0 with Villa?* We put three past Bolton and attacked them to the point of explicit murder. We don't have incapable players - we just don't need to play long ball.

 

 

 

 

*In response to thread title.

[Baggio]

If you supply Owen, Martins and Viduka then they will score goals.

 

We could have had Henry, Eto'o and Ronaldinho up there against Villa but if the midfield created as much as they did that day for them then they wouldn't have looked like scoring either.

[Northern Monkey]

If you supply Owen, Martins and Viduka then they will score goals.

 

We could have had Henry, Eto'o and Ronaldinho up there against Villa but if the midfield created as much as they did that day for them then they wouldn't have looked like scoring either.

 

it wasn't the Villa midfield that made Viduka and MArtins as useful as a Liverpool fans cheque, was it? Their midfield didn't make Viduka lumber around like a B-movie godzilla, or Martins make awful runs.

 

and the fact remains that in the 433 we played on Saturday, we aren't going to be creating much for anyone.

[Baggio]

If you supply Owen, Martins and Viduka then they will score goals.

 

We could have had Henry, Eto'o and Ronaldinho up there against Villa but if the midfield created as much as they did that day for them then they wouldn't have looked like scoring either.

 

it wasn't the Villa midfield that made Viduka and MArtins as useful as a Liverpool fans cheque, was it? Their midfield didn't make Viduka lumber around like a B-movie godzilla, or Martins make awful runs.

 

and the fact remains that in the 433 we played on Saturday, we aren't going to be creating much for anyone.

 

But we didn't create anything for them, would Martins make better runs or Viduka have the movement of Bellamy if we played 4-4-2?

 

Our strikers will score goals I've no doubt about that, however if you're going to lump long balls up to them all game as our only supply line then they are going to struggle to get away from defenders, it was clear our set up wasn't working half and hour into the game so why Allardyce didn't change it then I'm not sure, too busy playing on his mobile no doubt.

 

Our midfield was shite and created nothing, I'd be more inclined to look at that before moving any strikers around.

[Northern Monkey]

If you supply Owen, Martins and Viduka then they will score goals.

 

We could have had Henry, Eto'o and Ronaldinho up there against Villa but if the midfield created as much as they did that day for them then they wouldn't have looked like scoring either.

 

it wasn't the Villa midfield that made Viduka and MArtins as useful as a Liverpool fans cheque, was it? Their midfield didn't make Viduka lumber around like a B-movie godzilla, or Martins make awful runs.

 

and the fact remains that in the 433 we played on Saturday, we aren't going to be creating much for anyone.

 

But we didn't create anything for them, would Martins make better runs or Viduka have the movement of Bellamy if we played 4-4-2?

 

Our strikers will score goals I've no doubt about that, however if you're going to lump long balls up to them all game as our only supply line then they are going to struggle to get away from defenders, it was clear our set up wasn't working half and hour into the game so why Allardyce didn't change it then I'm not sure, too busy playing on his mobile no doubt.

 

Our midfield was shite and created nothing, I'd be more inclined to look at that before moving any strikers around.

 

you're right on a number of points, but we didn't JUST lump long balls up, when we played "on the deck" as they (althoguh i don't know who "they" are who say that), the frontmen were still ineffective/not good enough.

 

Owen will score goals in the right formation, with the right service. I'm sure of that.

Martins will score some too, he's shown that.

Viduka will get some, although not as many by any means.

 

Question is: as we are fairly sure 433 is wrong for the players, do we think Allardyce will change it? Because if he doesn't, i think we're in for a turgid time once he gets the players he 'needs' to play his way relativley successfully.

 

[SteveMc]

The attackers and midfield are inextricably linked though, in terms of formation.  If we'd played 442 we wouldn't have been so over run in midfield and would have had more width.  This would, in turn, provide more for the strikers.  So looking at the midfield would involve moving the strikers around.

[TRC]

I think Shola is the only one who could play in a 4-3-3, and he's fucking shite.

[Cronky]

The obvious way of using the four strikers is for either Viduka or Shola to pair up with either Owen or Martins in a 4-4-2.

 

Personally, I'm not completely sold on that in the long term, because the best role for the second striker in a 4-4-2 is to link with the midfield eg Beardsley, Rooney, Bellamy. You have a target man and a creator, rather than two strikers side by side. I don't think Martins or Owen are well suited to that creator role, any more than the wider role in a 4-3-3.

 

So yes, Houston we have a problem which Allardyce will have to face up to. The three best players for a 4-3-3 are Duff, Shola and Milner, but that leaves you with a lack of pace. That's what I'd go for if everyone's fit, but it's not ideal.

 

Edit - the best bet at the moment for a 4-4-2 would be Owen and Shola IMO.

[Northern Monkey]

The obvious way of using the four strikers is for either Viduka or Shola to pair up with either Owen or Martins in a 4-4-2.

 

Personally, I'm not completely sold on that in the long term, because the best role for the second striker in a 4-4-2 is to link with the midfield eg Beardsley, Rooney, Bellamy. You have a target man and a creator, rather than two strikers side by side. I don't think Martins or Owen are well suited to that creator role, any more than the wider role in a 4-3-3.

 

So yes, Houston we have a problem which Allardyce will have to face up to. The three best players for a 4-3-3 are Duff, Shola and Milner, but that leaves you with a lack of pace. That's what I'd go for at the moment, but it's not ideal.

 

 

 

And a lack of ability/committment/fitness, in places.

[KaKa]

I don't understand the whole notion that 4-3-3 means ugly football! Isn't this what Barcelona play?!

 

The issue is whether our players can learn to be in the right positions and to make the right runs at the right times, and all importantly to try to keep the ball on the floor rather than resort to playing the long ball.

 

Now, judging by what has come out so far about the players doing tactical training and even being given homework, as well as reviewing video of previous games together, I am more than happy to wait to see how the 4-3-3 develops and eventually plays out. If Sam feels the players can adapt to the system with a bit of coaching and direction then more power to him.

 

In conclusion 4-3-3 does not equal ugly football, bad/unwilling footballers do!!!

[Guest Novocastrian]

The style of football is more important than the formation in my opinion. Lumping the ball forward does not suit our current players and should only be used as a last resource. Owen is being unfairly typecast as poacher with nothing else to his game, Viduka is being described as a hurly-burly traditional number 9 who is good in the air when he's not really that type of player. I can't see why Owen, Martins and Viduka can't play together but they need the ball played in quickly to feet, preferably from wide positions. Modern football is about more than nominal formations such as 442, 433 etc.

Look how Man Utd and Chelsea play, good players should be able to move seamlessly from one "formation" to the next several times within a game depending on the requirement. I find all this talk of numbered formations a bit football manageresque.

[Parky]

The style of football is more important than the formation in my opinion. Lumping the ball forward does not suit our current players and should only be used as a last resource. Owen is being unfairly typecast as poacher with nothing else to his game, Viduka is being described as a hurly-burly traditional number 9 who is good in the air when he's not really that type of player. I can't see why Owen, Martins and Viduka can't play together but they need the ball played in quickly to feet, preferably from wide positions. Modern football is about more than nominal formations such as 442, 433 etc.

Look how Man Utd and Chelsea play, good players should be able to move seamlessly from one "formation" to the next several times within a game depending on the requirement. I find all this talk of numbered formations a bit football manageresque.

 

More to the point is we need someone with vision in MF to feed this lot. If we just go wide than that leaves us outnumbered in the middle which seems something the SA loses sleep over. 

[Guest Knightrider]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

[Cronky]

There has been a trend towards more flexible systems for a long time now, and that's meant a trend towards more flexible players. The specialist playmaker who can't tackle, or the defensive midfielder who can't pass, or the finisher who can't create for his team-mates - these kinds of players are becoming less and less useful for the top teams. Increasingly, they don't like defenders who can only defend, for that matter.

 

4-3-3 represents a move towards greater fluidity. In some ways, it's wrong to describe the formation in terms of 3 lines, because the wide men operate partly in the midfield, and at least one of the midfield players should be supporting the main striker through the centre. I'm sure this flexibility is the reason it's becoming more widespread.

 

4-4-2 can be stodgy and predictable, and sometimes feels like a retreat to the comfort zone of old fashioned wingers and centre forwards. We need variety in our play.

[Baggio]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

[Rich]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Best points return we've had in the opening two games of the Premiership season since 97/98 (ten fucking years ago) and people are still making comments like this

 

I'd say it's probably too early to say, but it certainly hasn't been the disaster it's being made out to be so far... and did we not switch to 4-4-2 against Villa when Owen came on?

[Guest Knightrider]

We don't have the strikers or the midfielders really. In time I'm in no doubt we will though and that 4-3-3 will be a big success for us under Allardyce. I also think it's the way forward for us, in time.

 

Then Allardyce should have bought players to fit his system in the summer.

 

Had he done that addressing the main issue (squad depth) would have had to come second. He's literally building from the back or rather the bottom step on the ladder. He'll address the latter in coming windows. In the meantime, via his work in the transfer market already, he now has a strong enough squad to work with and plenty of options. Given his own adaptability, he'll more than make do for the time being.

 

It seems some people expect us to learn to run before we can walk...

 

One step at a time, eh.