madras

"we" Yes.... we thought you were from northern ireland...as in born and bred there ? Im not even going to bother explaining myself to you, what is the point when you will just pick faults with whatever I say. It is also no concern of yours. Move on madras i'll only pick faults if there's faults to be picked at. You dont even know me and yet you assume so much, that is the only fault I see here. what am i assuming ?

"we" Yes.... we thought you were from northern ireland...as in born and bred there ? Im not even going to bother explaining myself to you, what is the point when you will just pick faults with whatever I say. It is also no concern of yours. Move on madras i'll only pick faults if there's faults to be picked at.

"we" Yes.... we thought you were from northern ireland...as in born and bred there ?

"we"

still the fans shouldn't have been pushing and crushing to get in. as an example it used to happen at the gallowgate end at SJP. the fans were wrong to do it and the police policed it in the way of the time, walk horses into the throng and threaten to arrest anyone who said they should do something about it. if anyone got hurt there i'd have blamed the fans for pushing and the police for not stopping it...............i stopped going in the gallowgate and went to the "A" wing paddock were the crushing didn't take place to get into the ground.

You have to factor in the fans sent to that end with tickets for other parts of the ground, plus the huge amount of fans with tickets still to arrive (of which it appears the vast majority arrived at roughly the same time). This in itself should of been policed properly, It would of been quite clear to the authorities that there were many fans who were arriving late due to traffic problems. And I ask those that consider the ticketless fans responsible for the causing the opening of the gate - Why did the police give in to the actions of a small section of fans? You don't have to be a maths teacher to work out that adding extra people to a sold out section would be somewhat of a problem. Why did they not do their job which is to provide safety to the public, and instead make a decision which they should of known would of had huge potential safety problems? Why did they not delay the kick off to alleviate any sense of loosing control of the amount of fans trying to get in? would delaying the game of been seen as a sign of weakness by the police authorities in charge, an inability to 'keep things in order'? (i'm referring here to a comment made above that delay's were uncommon then, the officer in charge was wet around the ears according to the report, and may of not wanted to appear unable to deal with the situation, so just decided to 'let them all in'). in reply to the bit in bold...i thought it was because of the risk of people getting crushed OUTSIDE the ground. it wasn't just ticketless fans that joined the crush to get in from OUTSIDE the ground but those with tickets and those ridiculously sent there from other parts of the ground (does the taylor report say why liverpool fans with tickets for other parts of the ground were sent there ?). the police failed to stop the crushing outside the ground the fans shouldn't have been crushing outside the ground. if the fans don't do it the police don't have a decsion to make.

beats me why they just didn't borrow more money (ouch!)

paul and scott parker. paul and paul robinson

Why not contain this 'pushing and shoving' outside the ground where there was plenty of room for the police to do their job? Why open the gates in full knowledge that the 'pushing and shoving' mass would move inside the ground with potential safety issues? Why when the decision to open the gate was made was there not any communication with officers/stewards inside the ground to filter this 'pushing and shoving' crowd into the emptier areas? Why not delay kick off to alleviate any 'pushing and shoving' and make the fans outside not feel rushed to get inside the ground? If your opinion is correct, then why did the police give in to the actions of a minority of fans? why did they make a decision to do something that could not be reversed and obviously had huge potential safety issues? Why when the easiest and safest decision to make was to delay the kick off, did they choose the most dangerous option? That is another thread mate, I'm not getting into that here. (but the segregation was crap). just this week some police force down south appologised for not pulling in a rapist when they should've,they made huge errors which lead to him carrying on attacking women for an extra year or so........but we'll just blame the police and not the rapist eh ? at no point do i say the fans are solely to blame, at no point do i say the police done anything less than a shit job on the day but (there it goes again !) the police could only do a poor job because of the actions of the fans.

i don't think gary played a first team game for us. niall and micky quinn ?

on the contrary, you are quite wrong. I never defended the appointment of Souness, unlike many people on here, some of whom you have on numerous occasions took their view rather than mine, Mandiarse immediately springs to mind. Defending him and everything he did, everybody he sold and bought, right to the end My point - if its allowed to say this again rather than be told its a potential banning offence although I'm just replying to you not that replying to others in the past made any difference - is and always has been, that in spite of their mistakes, replacing the Halls and Shepherd with better would be an extremely difficult thing to do. And that makes me, and the handful of others who thought the same, not one person, absolutely correct. Doesn't it ? I'm not asking for the remaining 2 years of my 3 years paid up season ticket back by the way, despite being absolutely gutted that we are well on the way to back to the REAL s*** served up for the vast majority of the 30 years before the Halls and Shepherd raised the standards to what you and many others thought were the norm. I take it you might reply --- you haven't replied to the previous post I referred you too, just like everyone else. Strange isn't it that nobody does. What difference does it make if you were correct or not other than to your own satisfaction of constantly pointing it out? John Hall sold the club by choice, presumably because he wanted the money. What the club is crying out for is investment and if Hall didn't want to do it, obviously someone else has to. Ashley is doing a s*** job but unless Hall or Shepherd are planning on coming back what is the point in keep banging on about them? in case you haven't read the thread properly, and its obvious you haven't, the reply is a direct response to the post by Dave where he said that "one person" would not agree. So I'm putting the record straight, before I am banned for posting facts about Ashley's predecessors and how they found the club when they themselves took it over. Why don't you tell me why people absurdly keep coming along and saying that a club that qualifies for europe more than any club bar 4 over a period over 15 years is s*** ? in the same way we were s*** 1 year after qualifying for europe in the 70's. (you know nobody is saying we were shit for the entire 15years but it doesn't suit your purpose)

What are these words I'm supposed to be putting into other peoples mouths? What were the 'mindless minority' adding too? (honest question) What were theses actions by some, exactly? and why would the police give in to them? the pushing and crushing outside the ground that lead to the police making the decision to open the gate. surely following this to its logical conclusion means that the belgian authorities were to blame for heysel as it was their failure to act on the actions of the fans that day ?

Well there are some that think it was all those marauding ticketless thugs baying at the gates. I think the answer is a little more straight forward, the authorities did not want to delay kick off. some think a mindless minority adding to it as they had done many times before. funny thast those saying that tend not to put words in others mouths.

Gerrard is English, so the English media suckle his arse. Hardly a conspiracy. Essien is definitely one of the best players in the world. Can do everything, though could score more, and has the intelligence and attitude Gerrard lacks. Surely anyone would love to have him in their team. When he replicates his Liverpool form for England, I'd glady have him in the England team every game without doubt. However, is that ever going to happen? It hasn't so far in 70 caps. I hope he proves me wrong one day because if he does replicate his Liverpool form, we might actually get somewhere in South Africa next year. For me, Gerrard is a world-class player but only in terms of league football because he doesn't perform on the International stage. Messi is streets ahead in regards to the original question by the way. Fair enough. Can't comment on that, because I haven't watched an England game since 2006. it would be interesting to see gerrard in a similar set up to that at liverpool where he gets more freedom .rooney to left and cole (when fit) to the right maybe. don't know who to put up front mind with maybe lampard and barry in behind. he's certainly moved a notch or two up on my list this season.

Drivin' down your freeways Midnite alleys roam Cops in cars, the topless bars Never saw a woman So alone, so alone.. As i've said, in my mind the mistake was to open the gate instead of delaying the kick off, if that makes me deluded so be it. i think everyone agrees with that. what some are picking up on was the reason the police needed to take that decision in the first place.

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right? Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been). Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area). And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most. And that is what basically caused the disaster. I wonder why the FA didnt give Liverpool the bigger end, as they have a far bigger support than Forrest. For those of us old enough to remember, then it was a terrible thing, and anyone who went the match regular will probably of thought the same thing - But for the grace of god, it could of been us. i think (not 100% sure),but liverpool got marginally more tickets and were going to have ther leppings lane end plus. the reason to give them that end was the police thought liverpool fans would mainly go to wadsley bridge to get football special trains which is at that end of the ground. (i think)

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right? Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been). Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area). And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most. Not worth you posting that Magpie418. Despite it being common sense, and despite Lord Justice Taylor reporting that the Liverpool fans were not at fault Madras knows better. pleased you are coming round eventually f*** off, your attitude makes me feel sick tbh. Shame you cannot recognise sarcasm. Show some respect man. i'm sarcastic back and you don't recognise it...............obvious you don't recognise irony eh ? i have nothing but respect for those that died, those injured and those who still suffer from what happened that day. not just livepoll fans by the way but some in the police when they realiased what was happening, groundstaff ambulance staff etc. i have nothing but loathing for those that contributed to it and won't accept it. (some fans, police,groundstaff etc)

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right? Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been). Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area). And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most. Not worth you posting that Magpie418. Despite it being common sense, and despite Lord Justice Taylor reporting that the Liverpool fans were not at fault Madras knows better. pleased you are coming round eventually

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right? Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been). Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area). And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most. i've never disagreed with any of that. just for anybody looking in i have said all along the police made massive fuck ups that day and deserve most of the blame.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it. if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you. And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens. where do i say all ? what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not. I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions. And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late. By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies. don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks. yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell). take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate. I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more. so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury). do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ? do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ? I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone. i agree but they didn't and they f***ed up massivly. how many times do i have to say this ? but it only strengthens my shoplifter analogy. Only to yourself. Comparing this and an incident of shoplifting is frankly appauling. 96 people died as a direct result of the police incompetance, many others have killed themselves or have lived for nearly 20 years with the nightmare of Hillsborough still there. Believe what you want to Madras, but to blame the fans for this is, in my opinion very wrong. you can change it from shoplifting to whatever crime you want....you are putting all the blame on the police for not stopping people committing a crime whislt letting those committing the crime off scot free . like i say if i'm in the dock i want you in the jury. Would you be saying the same thing if the crush at Spurs had killed 96 of our lads? I doubt it (although you will probably come over all diplomatic and say "Oh yes I would" when we know you wouldn't have). Oh bollocks it, I am not arguing with you anymore. Have some respect for the people who died, decent lads, lasses and kids who were already in the ground when the crush started. different as one was all ticket and one wasn't although the police made very similar mistakes. and i was there by the way.

man utd can carry their debt due to their turnover and profitability. i refer you to quaysiders post. Their strength in the Asian market was cited as the contributing factor as to why they chewed up the debt levied upon the club - via Glaziers borrowing - so quickly. It wasn't attributed to their domestic standing. Do you believe a mid-table hovering Man United would achieved similar results ie. the debt aspect just mentioned & the Asian market? "contributing factor".....so it's wasn't the only basis, it's almost as if you forget they were making sizeable profits for years before that and guess what.....that makes it easier to finance and obtain credit/debt. and the 2nd bit is plain silly as you are answering your own question. ............... but you see a mid-table Man Utd outfit would no longer have the benefit of flogging off 'Beckham no.7' in Asia. Funny that. A while ago some here - a while ago - cited that as one reason as to why should've made a move for the same player, to make minor dent into the same market. whats that got to do with me ? all you are saying is that if man utd were mid table they wouldn't be able to spend as they do......................well dahhhhhhh!

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it. if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you. And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens. where do i say all ? what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not. I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions. And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late. By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies. don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks. yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell). take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate. I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more. so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury). do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ? do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ? I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone. i agree but they didn't and they f***ed up massivly. how many times do i have to say this ? but it only strengthens my shoplifter analogy. Only to yourself. Comparing this and an incident of shoplifting is frankly appauling. 96 people died as a direct result of the police incompetance, many others have killed themselves or have lived for nearly 20 years with the nightmare of Hillsborough still there. Believe what you want to Madras, but to blame the fans for this is, in my opinion very wrong. you can change it from shoplifting to whatever crime you want....you are putting all the blame on the police for not stopping people committing a crime whislt letting those committing the crime off scot free . like i say if i'm in the dock i want you in the jury.

no. a small proportion of their fans a getting a portion of the blame. for what it's worth i have seen nufc fans do similar but on a much smaller scale than i've seen liverpool fans do it.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it. if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you. And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens. where do i say all ? what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not. I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions. And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late. By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies. don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks. yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell). take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate. I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more. so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury). do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ? do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ? I think that the situation would have been different had the police stopped those trying to get into the ground illegally before they got to the turnstiles. I think it would have been a different situation had the police not forced fans who had tickets in other parts of the ground to go to the Leppings Lane end. I also think the situation would have been different had the police delayed the kick-off by half and hour and communicated that to the fans outside the ground. I do believe that some of the fans were trying to get into the ground illegally, BUT the police should have POLICED the situations that were occurring outside the ground and not allowed it to get to the point where they had to open the gate. You are forgetting that the police would have intelligence about the football fans and would have known that there would be fans without tickets, it wouldn't be a surprise, but they failed to police the event properly and the Liverpool fans cannot be blamed for that. The police obviously were not as concerned about fans getting into the ground illegally and the implications of the overcrowding as they sent fans with tickets for other areas of the ground up to the Leppings Lane end, putting fans safety at risk by that action alone. i agree but they didn't and they fucked up massivly. how many times do i have to say this ? but it only strengthens my shoplifter analogy.

the facts were there were ticketless fans there, there was a push on the gate to get in,liverpool fans have a long history of doing this throughout europe,the police f***ed upin controlling it. if you want to believe that those ticketless fans made no attempt to gain illegal access to the ground then that is up t you. And those fans outside the ground, they were all ticketless and drunk eh? These weren't fans with tickets who had been held up in the roadworks and rail problems? The police could have had the kickoff delayed for half an hour and let the fans in the ground in an orderly way. The police f***ed up, they opened a gate and they failed to direct the fans into the empty pens. where do i say all ? what i am saying is a sizeable ammount enough to tip the balance between the police opening the gate and not. I am not saying you said anything, I am asking you two questions. And had the police done their job and POLICED outside the ground then there wouldn't have been a need to open the gate. I am sure they had intelligence on Liverpool fans and knew about their behaviour. The police also did not allow Liverpool fans with tickets to other areas of the ground go there, they were directed (and in some cases told in no uncertain terms) to the Leppings Lane end, which made the amount of Liverpool fans at that end even greater. Add to that the delays from the rail and road works for fans with tickets (which the police would know about) and it was inevitable that a large amount of fans would be trying to get into the ground late. By opening the gate and not ensuring that the fans went into the empty pens the police allowed this disaster to happen. Add to that the police not opening the gates at the front of the pens when fans were being crushed to death, not allowing ambulances into the ground to assist the injured, and standing like pricks at a wedding when fans were trying to save each other then its obvious where the blame lies. don't try to wriggle out of it. i've already stated numerous times that i don't think they were ALL ticketless and as for drunk you may aswell have asked if i thought they were all one legged lesbians carrying orchids in havasacks. yes i agree the police should have policed it better and f***ed up massivly all round but you are trying to blame the police for not stopping people doing stuff they shouldn't without casting any thought to those people themselves. (yes the police should take the blame if there is enough evidence to catch and shoplifter but they dont,but lets blame the shoplifter aswell). take even a couple of hundred away from the gate and i'll guess the police wouldn't have opened that gate. I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. Surely if the Taylor report was biased it would have found that the fans were to blame and not the police? As it was the police f***ed up. They would have known prior to the game that there would have been some ticketless fans trying to get in (seeing that it was common knowledge that football fans of a lot of clubs did this, not just Liverpool). They had the opportunity to prevent fans from getting into or even close to the ground if they didn't have tickets. They also directed fans with tickets for other parts of the ground into the Leppings Lane end, which they would have known would increase congestion around that part of the ground (as its not rocket science to realise that if fans are not in the part of the ground that they have tickets for but in another part, that second part will become overcrowded). They opened the gates because a crowd built up, partly caused by the road and train delays (which the police knew about). Do you think that the fans would have crowded into the pens had they known that they would crush their fellow fans to death? The police should have made them go into the side pens (and they could have easily done that had they used a bit of common sense). Blaming the Liverpool fans for this disaster is just wrong, ok there might have been some ticketless fans, but it was bad policing that caused this to happen and nothing more. so you are blaming the police (quite rightly) for not stopping people doing things they shouldn't without according the slightest blame to those people. (if ever i'm in the dock i want you inthe jury). do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ? do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?