Rich

In no way is it certain that money was a problem though, especially to the extent that some claim. Obviously Ashley has a bigger personal fortune than the previous incumbents but who's to say Freddy didn't have a trick or two up his sleeve to get some more funds in? He himself said recently that money "wasn't a problem", although you obviously can take that with as big a pinch of salt as you like. He's hardly going to admit he could have been buggered. When people deal in definitives when there are no solid facts to support their evidence is when problems happen. You may well be right, but there's no guarantee that we're better of now than we would have been had Fred remained in control.

But has it ever come out in the wash why we didn't though? It may just be my memory but I certainly don't remember Robson appearing too upset with just the addition of Bowyer and of course we had just spent £9M on Woodgate. It may have simply been that there was no money there to re-invest, or that Robson didn't feel he needed much else... if it was the former then this is what I understand about people being frustrated with Freddy. If the pot was empty or money couldn't be found after we'd just finished 3rd and had the potential to secure more big income by qualifying for the CL again then there must have been some bad management going on. However, it's one of those straw-man arguments at the minute because it can't be certain that it was the case. I must add that the more I'm thinking on this, the more negatives are appearing in my mind about Shepherd after the highs of 2001/02 and 2002/03 - particularly the Woodgate/Rooney summer, the circumstances regarding Gary Speed, Michael Carrick and Nicky Butt and the appointment of Souness and later slagging of Robson through the press. ADD: The fallout of the Bellamy situation, the dodgy dealings re: Boumsong and Faye, etc... Time does make you look back more fondly, generally, doesn't it?

I hate how long he takes over goal-kicks and just the general lethargic way he moves anyway. Definitely looks porky to me, but then he has sat on a bench for about 10 years. Still think he's good enough to be our number 1 though.

Yeah but that was the best bit of skill I've ever seen in the flesh, so I can't hold that against Jose too much. Griffin has a big future in beach football/futsal when he packs in playing professionally.

I think quite a few here noticed he had a turn of speed a while back in fairness, not to mention other qualities which tend to get over-looked. Even NE5 has belatedly joined the fan club but it's got nowt to do with hindsight I'm sure. I love how people aren't allowed to change their opinions with time on here As you say, he has looked very good at times and does have a lot of nice attributes for a fullback. I just hope he keeps improving and we keep a hold of him. The defence (well 5 defenders we have) is one area that I don't sweat too much about these days, although we're still desperate for cover for it.

I agree with you and James completely. I think tbh it's not the fact we are well stocked in the goalkeeping department, it's just the imagine that it sends out that after everything it's now that Shay wants to go. And he was part of the fabric of the club. That's the hard thing to take. I agree with you're latter points, most definitely. We pick ourselves up and move on and just hope that Harper is big enough to make it so that Given isn't missed and that later the young 'keepers fulfil their potential here. The best case scenario is Harper playing out of his skin enough so that people say "it was probably right to sell Shay" or "we don't miss him". He could do with dropping a bit of weight first like, and improving his kicking! £5.9M does appear a paltry sum though, even taking all the mitigating circumstances into account.

Not sure it's as simple as that mate, which is why it took me about 1000 words to get it across!! Saying "bad leadership since the Halls left" doesn't really do it justice and will just get people's backs up re: Shepherd and Ashley, the former who it could be argued outdid the Halls on occasions in terms of where the club went and the latter who it could be argued hasn't had long enough to be judged completely as of yet, despite some hideous errors of judgement so far. There has certainly been a lot of "bad leadership" at vital times though, especially when hindsight is utilised, so you're not wrong there! Basically, if we all posted HTT-style analyses in every post, there'd probably be less in-fighting as there'd be less open to conjecture. Of course we'd all be ridiculed by the tl;dr merchants as well, but it's swings and roundabouts

Aye. I'm personally happy with Harper, Krul, Forster as our first-team pool but would have been happier still with Given, Krul, Forster. No use crying over spilt milk though, as they say.

I know Wor Clazza has already been mentioned, but I have to single him out as the main man for me as well. Should have been far more of a cult hero here than he has become as he was a tidy footballer with a lovely face and a great engine, who stepped into the breach when "bigger" players were missing and very rarely let us down. Outside of him I'm struggling to come up with some off the top of my head, but would Olivier Bernard count? He was one of my favourite players when he was here, mainly due to the fact that he looked like a dog and got pole-axed in basically every game he played in - as well as being a generally sound footballer with a lethal tackle and a nice left-foot. Crying shame that greed or dodgy agents caused his career to go down the pan in such a fashion. Reduced to running a Crepe Shop on Grey Street now as well. I'll also add my mark to the Glass shout and probably Domi as well.

A bit simplistic don't you think? It's not as him being gone or the circumstances surrounding his departure could have no ramifications on our future.. Probably true. It does stick in the craw that Craig Gordon can be worth £9m moving from Scotland to Sunderland whereas Shay Given, a far better/more proven goalkeeper in the prime of his career, can cost only 2/3 of that moving from Newcastle United to the richest club on the planet. As others have said though, it is slightly offset by the apparent gains made on most other sales under Ashley. However, it still doesn't justify it or make it acceptable when looked at as an individual case, especially when you consider the money City paid for other players in January...

I haven't forgotten, not at all mate, the place was horrific even then for people having a whinge. Even when we were 3rd/4th there'd be people going on about something or other. I have no doubt that I've had a little moan at certain things during those good times myself, and I certainly will admit to having some grievances after Robson went and during the following reigns of Souness/Roeder, which I thought were justified at the time considering how far we fell in just one season. I certainly remember having a pop at various people for doom-mongering even back then though, Phil K is one that immediately springs to mind... I appreciated those years at the time greatly and I still do now. One main thing that sticks out as a bone of contention from the time was the "Bowyer summer" and the subsequent failure to qualify for the Champions' League again. Which obviously looking back seems to support the "spoiled brats" theory, but when we were in the heat of the moment it seemed a crime that we didn't build upon all of the good work that we'd put in the previous season. That 02/03 season, despite "only" coming 3rd, possibly rivals or even outdoes the 95/96 campaign in the fact that it had an amazing CL run added into it. The whole thing is so complex though, muddied even further as time goes by and memories fade, but it's vitally important that neither side begins rewriting history, which is what I have taken exception to in the past. I'm not going to sit here and hark back to the days of Shepherd thinking that all was rosy in the garden because it wasn't, things were evidently on the slide, the financial situation was becoming a worry and we seemed to be slipping behind while clubs all around us pushed on with new investment and new (better) managers. That slide, for me, started before Ashley arrived here - not afterwards - which is why I tend to be more neutral in the whole debate. I do agree with you when you say people are quick to criticise Shepherd without giving him credit for those achievements though and I would like to see Mick and Ozzie soften on this point in particular, much like you are the other way at times though, they appear to be too entrenched/too far gone to do so, which is a right bugger. Of course we had some great, great times under the last regime - but there were also times where things felt as low as they do now, probably because the peaks had been so euphoric. During Shepherd's final year or two and since Ashley came in there haven't really been those massive highs to offset the lows (bar Keegan's return and the miniature run we went on last season, which you must credit Ashley and Co. for making happen in the first place before they messed it up), which has led to a decimated and fractured support, hurt and apathetic at the way in which the club appears to have been handled from the top down (not just the fault of one or two men, however). I could go on for pages on this topic, to be honest, and I'd love to know more of the ins and outs of it all as far as the financial situation at the club goes and the reasons for certain things happening, but to avoid doing so and to try and tie things up a little bit I can only conclude from my own personal perspective: it was probably time for new owners or at the least new investment (with Fred remaining to run the club even if he wasn't the name above the door, so to speak), unfortunately the new owners we did get haven't provided the big-spending/instant fix that many (including myself) had hoped for - or even expected, they've made a horrendous error with the Kevin Keegan situation when it looked for all intents and purposes that we were getting back on the right track and have looked naive elsewhere as well. However they have only been here 18 months and have arguably taken over a club that had a lot of positives along with a lot of very real negatives too (waning, ageing support, a massive wage bill, a perennially-injured squad, etc.). IF we stay up this season and no investment/takeover is forthcoming then we have no alternative but to support them. For all that has went pear-shaped it hasn't been all bad and there is an argument to say that IF they can get the financial side sorted out while maintaining our Premiership status and making small strides forward (can't really go backwards at the minute, can they?) then we could still be onto a winner. You might totally disagree here, but I still see a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel if they are good to their recent word and continue to invest without taking anything out of the football club.

Rich ffs! I'm trying to make this thread go away. In fairness, I was in a pub with loads of Liverpool fans on Wednesday night and they all seem to share your view from then even now. He was getting all sorts of abuse for having Gerrard on the bench (obviously not fit) and for his formation, but then he goes and gets a 0-1 result away at Real Madrid! It's just another case of us lot thinking we know better, when really we're pretty clueless about most things at the top levels of the game (not just you!)

the only difference being that the team was doing much better, yet you backed a protest quite strongly Question remains. Why do you not back this one, do you think Ashley is undeserving of it while the previous regime did ? Why can't you reply, you've harped on about having an intelligent discussion Do you not just reckon that a lot of people, not just Ozzie, had become fairly spoiled in the period that you refer to and that after blaming players and managers the last step was to blame the directors? I'd openly admit that I for one was guilty of this and can see the takeover going much the way of the Souness appointment in the annals, for how it will be remembered, unless they sort it out of course. Like I've said elsewhere, Freddy was a victim of the raised expectations he had helped create, much like Bobby Robson, and as I've also said "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword". Like Shepherd said himself (with a wry smile) on the recent program he was on, "it's business". I do tend to think you have a lot of solid foundations for your opinions to be honest and as time goes by (especially while Ashley and Co. are performing worse than the former bunch) people's stances will soften with the benefit of hindsight. Personally I do think a change was needed, mainly from a financial aspect (as I believe we've discussed before) and I'm gutted that so far Mike Ashley with all of his money hasn't appeared to be an instant solution. At the current time it's hard to argue with your anger towards those who thought any Tom, Dick or Harry would come in and improve things (still relatively early days, mind). It sounds insane when you consider his wealth, but even Ashley may not have the type of money required to compete at the top level of the PL in a hurry now, much like it started to appear Fred and Co. didn't as the likes of Abramovich et al. appeared onto the scene. All we can hope for is that either Ashley turns it around with his current "plan" or that we're taken over by an individual or a group who has much more money and much more know-how when it comes to running a football club. The latter certainly doesn't look like happening, so what choice do we have other than to continue to support what is already there? I genuinely don't see what protesting and moaning incessantly does to help things at the current point in time.

Nearly 18 months and still there! Who'd have thunk it?

Cheers chaps, will have a gander.

Urgh.

As an aside, I'd personally prefer this to go to court rather than being settled with a lump sum and a gagging order as I'd absolutely love to know what went on. I appreciate KK's need to secure his future financially and support his business ventures, but he'd improve his standing further with me if he simply didn't take a pay-off and then had to keep his trap shut. This assumes he's in the right, of course, which may not be the case (to a definitive degree, at least).

Dont be crazy. As if Ashley is thinking of 'hanging Keegan out to dry' after the reaction of the fans to him leaving. PR disaster. Turn of phrase which seemed appropriate as I was thinking back to their 'FACT' phase. If they're in the right, they should set about demonstrating it as clearly as possible so as to nullify that reaction you speak of. It still hangs over the club, we've lived through the PR disaster - I dare say it can't get any worse, as I think going forwards, things that are going to drive attendances down and generally upset the support are going to relate far more to their overall running of the club (appearing to seriously consider Kinnear the long-term manager of the club etc.). 'Out of court settlements' and silence are going to be for the worse, if they're serious about wanting to drive this club on with the spirit it possessed not so long ago. On a personal level, I agree with you. I dont think a lot of other fans would accept Keegan getting another fucking over from the club, nor do i think the club's hierarchy understands where some fans (the open-minded ones) are with regards to the whole debate. I might be wrong, but my judgement is most of those who would have a support-ending reaction to Keegan getting fucked already have done, though it might make some others feel temporarily sore again. Still, making a triage judgement, I also think it would make many feel less sore about the previous fucking - and for yet more, it would dispel some of the fog that has surrounded the regime's motivations since it all took place. People won't keep looking back to that period wondering what took place and whether it means the regime do or don't deserve faith over future matters. Agreed on your last point about the club not understanding. They seem to be consistently clueless as to what people want out of the club. Exactly and it's a disgrace really because it's not a difficult thing to find out. I'm sure they could create a department or even just a single role at the club which was based around "customer feedback" at all levels. Perhaps they don't care or perhaps they think they can get by without it, but if they'd done something like this from the get-go (similar to Lerner at Villa in regards to getting more involved with your supporters) then a lot of the major negatives of their reign could have been easily avoided. Incredibly frustrating.

£18m for Coloccini and Xisco? Yikes.

If Kevin Keegan was the plan, how the fuck does Joe Kinnear follow on from that? Why the pleasant surprise over a manager of a Premiership club who has such a big interest in his team while he's ill? Dear me. Dear, dear me. I'd like to believe him and I'd like to think it will all be okay, but survival this season is only the beginning of ever turning it around.

My amazing input to this thread will be the voicing of my surprise over Llambias' voice. Sounds far less sinister than expected. Just started listening like, if there's anything meaty I might be back.

Didn't like the pressure by the sounds of it.

Dear me. The volume there is insane. Was it anywhere near like that at home to Stoke? Unfortunately I was stuck in Hull. To me that's what football is all about, gutted that it went Pete Tong here for him third time around.

Fred has a sort of roughneck charm about him, I must admit, I can see why you love him mate (safety wink). I think as much as anything he was a victim of the raised expectations that he helped to create amongst the fans, who have become spoiled brats for the most part when it comes to their perceptions of their club. On top of that, he was digging a hole over and over trying to fulfil those (unrealistic?) expectations again and I think the problem most have with him lies herein. Although nobody bar him and those around him know what plans he had up his sleeve to remedy this (the ground expansion and the development plans for the land around SJP must have been a big part of this.) I have nothing personal against the bloke, as I say, I wish he had done the business for us here (as I'd love nothing better for the club to be Geordie from top-to-bottom) and I certainly wish he had Ashley's money as I don't think there's any doubt we'd be better off with Shepherd at the helm ahead of the inexperienced and at times incredibly naive "team" we have there now, but such is life. Nowt any of us can do about it unfortunately, just have to roll with the punches. Whinging and moaning on internet forums (both sides) does nothing to help though, especially when you're chomping at such obvious wind-up attempts as you did there. There's an excellent debate to be had about Freddy Shepherd some day, when more information is readily to hand and I bet he comes off far more "in the middle" than at either end of the agenda-ridden spectrum that we see on here day-in, day-out (again from both sides). The bloke has had his time though and he did a hell of a lot with it, I think most would readily admit he did a lot of good here but by the same token most will never forgive him for some things he did (the brothel incident and the massive salaries he had, as well as all the dodgy dealings with warehouses and what have you), rightly or wrongly. *Shrug* I can't say fairer than that really.

I'd hope not, to be honest. "Worst chairman ever" is some fucking stretch. Fattest, maybe.