alpal78

There is no way Enrique would stay after that joke of a performance. If anything surrendering a 3 goal lead against West Brom would just reinforce his views that we are a useless team!

I hold the fucker accountable for this result. He took it easy after we were 3-0 up and that message was transmitted to the players. At 3-2 he should have been screaming at the players, instead he just stood by the sideline looking smug like he had no interest and the players responded the same way!

Why do I get the feeling that Pardew is not taking the game seriously. He should make sure we get the three points first before playing around with subs and formation!

We were ahead before we sacked Hughton, we've been behind since we sold Carroll. What a convenient and self serving way of measuring our position. Let me try, we were behind before we sacked Hughton and we are now ahead after we appointed Pardew, bought HBA and gave Tiote a new contract. This is fun! I don't remember the rest of the country saying we were consolidating our reputation as a stable, sensible club where players can concentrate on improving their games when we swapped Hughton for Pardew, and I don't remember the rest of the country saying we were heading upward to our traditional position in natural order of things as a leading club when we sealed the second Tiote contract in 6 months, but ok. That's the point, my measurement is as subjective as yours, they are both designed to fit our predetermined conclusion/position. Social status is a subjective thing, that's obvious, but measurement of the actual attitudes towards something can be pretty straightforward. It's not just a case of making random statements you can't back up and assuming you won't get pulled up on them. Not sure what my predetermined conclusion is supposed to be - if church bells had rung declaring how savvy we were for hiring Pardew, I would have just thought people are stupid, and said as much. I wouldn't have pretended they actually agreed with me, or changed my opinion to fit in with them, which logically you seem to be implying. Unless you are going to start producing some statistics, your "measurement of actual attitude" is equally subjective. Let me simplify my language for you, you have used measurement of when we were "ahead" and "behind" subjectively to nicely fit into your position and believe vis a vis Hughton and Pardew. It's fine if that is your believe, but that is just your subjective assessment (which makes it as valid as my own subjective assessment whether you agree with it or not). It is not an objective measurement of actual attitude as your put it. Regarding your first sentence, you make a valid, but in my view nigh on worthless point. The trouble is sticking rigidly to only the highest standards of evidence, even to the point of refusing caveating, means that shy of us all running large-scale controlled studies whenever we want to analyse something and make a contribution to a subject that isn't res ipsa loquitur, we're gagged and refused permission to say anything. And so nothing useful is said, and whatever problem that exists will continue without prospect of remedy. This attitude removes agency from people - everyone - who I think can still and should be agents. I don't like it when people with your approach try to kill discussions by saying that because neither you nor the person you're debating with know with absolute certainty that, say, something will take place next summer, that neither of you should say anything and anything that is said is of equal intellectual merit. The resultant situation you're arguing for is one I've previously consistently witnessed - no one is allowed to adopt a position on something until there's no point in them adopting one because the thing has already happened, and so they must again wait until they're allowed to adopt a position on yet another yet-to-be-conclusively-understood issue. There is no logical problem in this thread, you just don't like people like me attempting to make judgements. Likewise, I don't like your lack of judgement. Shy of me trying to convert you from your mode of thought to my own so the world will be slightly less stymied by anal-retentiveness, I think this part ends around here. Now, with regards my original post in response to ON, it's ironic that I also honestly couldn't give a s*** as to its convenience. Whether I approve of things that happened re: Hughton and Carroll is redundant to the discussion that had started on our 'status' in the minds of other people, in fact it should be quite obvious that the reverse relationship is more pertinent (i.e. other people's reactions help inform whether I think those moves are going to make it harder for the club to succeed in the future). Furthermore, I dare say it's inconvenient that popular opinion is in tune with my own as it means I can't strut around posing as an outsider intellectual who's one of the few far removed enough from the crowd to objectively assess the situation and 'call it as it is'. Having said that, it's just occurred to me there's a small chance you've been trying to say my original post was about stirring an argument by dragging a status discussion onto Ashley etc. If so, no, I was originally just intending to back up ON in his disagreement with Prophet over whether 'Ashley getting us relegated' was responsible for a fall in respect. Well at least that sounds like an intelligent response. I have no issues with anyone passing a judgement and of course people can adopt whatever position they want, what is not logical is for you (or anyone) to claim that your judgement is more meritorious than mine without corroborating the statement against an external (preferably independent) measurement. It's called legitimacy to claim. If we were negotiating the sale-purchase of a house, you (the seller) can make a judgement that the value of the house is $400k and I the seller make a judgement that the value is only $200k. Our valuation of course incorporates our bias of what we would consider a favorable outcome for ourselves in the deal. We could use position bargaining and compromise on $300k. The better way to resolve that is to refer to the actual market price as a legitimate reference point. You can name whatever price you want and make whatever judgement you feel like making, but you can't tell me that your price is more legitimate than mine unless you show me something more than just your words. Anything else is logically flawed which unfortunately seems to be the approach that you are taking in this debate.

what are you basing this on? in the fact that he has only excelled playing for Barcelona which really only plays in a certain way

Did the guy survive?

What do you mean 1 more goal? Before yesterday's brace, he's ahead by 7 goals in La Liga (38 vs 31).How may headers have Messi scored and compare that with Ronaldo, the numbers speak for themselves man. Put it this way, if money was no objection and I could get either Messi or Ronaldo. If I was Guardiola managing Barcelona, I'd take Messi hands down, he fits into Barcelona like hands to glove. But if I was any other manager and I was looking for a player to individually improve my team immediately (with say other midfielders being above average), then I'd go with Ronaldo hands down. Messi relies on the team playing in a certain way to excel (and of course when that happens, he is the best), whereas Ronaldo will be more influential in an average team due to his "physique, power and practiced technique"

Say what you like, Ronaldo as an individual poses more of a threat in terms of goalscoring, he's also quite good with headers which Messi is piss poor at, so in that sense I would argue that Ronaldo is more complete. Not sure how you can measure Messi's intelligence especially when he plays with Xavi and Iniesta. Ronaldo as a goal scoring threat has done it with two teams (scored insane number of goals with Man Utd too) and his attributes are hence more quantifiable.

Surprise nobody has mentioned Ronaldo beating the La Liga 1989/90 goalscoring record with an insane total of 40 La Liga goals in one season and 53 overall for Madrid this season. If it was Messi, people would be jizzing all over the forum. The boy dives but in terms of quality and getting you points, the boy is right at the top. Take a bow son. Barcelona the better team, Ronaldo the better player. Not a chance. Better goalscorer arguably. Ya I guess depends on how you measure "better". For me it is goals coz that's what get the team points. Grated Messi probably play the more beautiful football.

We were ahead before we sacked Hughton, we've been behind since we sold Carroll. What a convenient and self serving way of measuring our position. Let me try, we were behind before we sacked Hughton and we are now ahead after we appointed Pardew, bought HBA and gave Tiote a new contract. This is fun! I don't remember the rest of the country saying we were consolidating our reputation as a stable, sensible club where players can concentrate on improving their games when we swapped Hughton for Pardew, and I don't remember the rest of the country saying we were heading upward to our traditional position in natural order of things as a leading club when we sealed the second Tiote contract in 6 months, but ok. That's the point, my measurement is as subjective as yours, they are both designed to fit our predetermined conclusion/position. Social status is a subjective thing, that's obvious, but measurement of the actual attitudes towards something can be pretty straightforward. It's not just a case of making random statements you can't back up and assuming you won't get pulled up on them. Not sure what my predetermined conclusion is supposed to be - if church bells had rung declaring how savvy we were for hiring Pardew, I would have just thought people are stupid, and said as much. I wouldn't have pretended they actually agreed with me, or changed my opinion to fit in with them, which logically you seem to be implying. Unless you are going to start producing some statistics, your "measurement of actual attitude" is equally subjective. Let me simplify my language for you, you have used measurement of when we were "ahead" and "behind" subjectively to nicely fit into your position and believe vis a vis Hughton and Pardew. It's fine if that is your believe, but that is just your subjective assessment (which makes it as valid as my own subjective assessment whether you agree with it or not). It is not an objective measurement of actual attitude as your put it.

Surprise nobody has mentioned Ronaldo beating the La Liga 1989/90 goalscoring record with an insane total of 40 La Liga goals in one season and 53 overall for Madrid this season. If it was Messi, people would be jizzing all over the forum. The boy dives but in terms of quality and getting you points, the boy is right at the top. Take a bow son. Barcelona the better team, Ronaldo the better player.

We were ahead before we sacked Hughton, we've been behind since we sold Carroll. What a convenient and self serving way of measuring our position. Let me try, we were behind before we sacked Hughton and we are now ahead after we appointed Pardew, bought HBA and gave Tiote a new contract. This is fun! I don't remember the rest of the country saying we were consolidating our reputation as a stable, sensible club where players can concentrate on improving their games when we swapped Hughton for Pardew, and I don't remember the rest of the country saying we were heading upward to our traditional position in natural order of things as a leading club when we sealed the second Tiote contract in 6 months, but ok. That's the point, my measurement is as subjective as yours, they are both designed to fit our predetermined conclusion/position.

We were ahead before we sacked Hughton, we've been behind since we sold Carroll. What a convenient and self serving way of measuring our position. Let me try, we were behind before we sacked Hughton and we are now ahead after we appointed Pardew, bought HBA and gave Tiote a new contract. This is fun!

Do you think we'll spend £35 million and anything we bring in from transfers on new players? I don't know and nor do you or Dave for that matter

. He won't get that at Liverpool! They're trying though, which is kinda the point. Liverpool sold their best striker for 50M and bought one good replacement and one with potential and it seems to you "they are trying". We sold our best striker for 35M and are planning to buy replacements in the summer and yet we somehow show no ambition, such blatant double standards in interpretation! The least you could do is wait till the end of the summer transfer window before concluding that we are going in a different direction from Liverpool.

Yes, but not as much as next January, or the summer after. Ya coz that's what everyone is saying

That's all well and good but depends on what he means by showing ambition. If he wants us to be in CL in 2012/13, then we should sell him when we get a good deal, coz even if we invested heavily in the summer, we are not gonna break into the top 4. If he wants to see us progress and see some good signings to boost the first team and deepen the squad, then aye we should hold on to him coz I do believe we will be doing that this summer. Sadly I think it is the former.

How is it unraveling? This season has even ended and the transfer window is still firmly shut!

Yup it does irritate me that him (or his advisers) seemed to be moving the goal post. First it was we'll wait till Newcastle is safe. Now that we are safe and in a good shout to finish strongly, the least he could do is start negotiating to show his sincerity. What is their excuse now?? If he wants us to show ambition, then he should at least make that clear and wait till we finish our summer dealings. If he has made up his mind of moving to his 'bigger' team, then he should say so now so that we can cut our losses, prepare without him and start looking for replacements of similar quality.

I will judge Pardew and Ashley by their actions this summer because there is no point getting excited or pissed at what they say. They fucking contradict themselves every 5 minutes!

where is this 8 million figure coming from??

Getting boring already Very few people if any are saying that we should sell just to get the money. The forum is split between those who blame the club for any high profile sale even if the players themselves want to go and those who are saying that if they want to go and we can't keep them, then sell BUT invest wisely, get a decent replacement and beef up the squad.

This echoes how I feel about the whole issue, though many will not agree

No idea. If vs Liverpool no chance. Any suggestions or are you just fishing....ooooh I know, don't sell Carroll!

Can't we get Colo and Jonas to have a word with him. The 3 Amigos are gonna be separated! :-(