Unbelievable

Knew people would claim that horrible experiment wasn't what they claim they want, but to be fair equally are we not playing a traditional 442 with 2 banks of four and 2 strikers up top much these last couple of weeks (i.e. in our run of losses). The reality is our problems run much deeper than simply sacrificing a midfield player for a winger. Yep, the manager is s*** That's one way of looking at it. Another would be to say we're not bringing in the players that he wants/needs in order for him to play his preferred style of play (regardless of what we think about the aesthetics of that style of play). Why else bring in a striker who can only excel in a 433, and a defensive midfield player who thrives on possession based linkup play between the defensive players and the midfield/forward players, when he seemnigly wants to play a traditional English game with two banks of four and a little man/big man combo up front?

Fully agree with all of that.

Knew people would claim that horrible experiment wasn't what they claim they want, but to be fair equally are we not playing a traditional 442 with 2 banks of four and 2 strikers up top much these last couple of weeks (i.e. in our run of losses). The reality is our problems run much deeper than simply sacrificing a midfield player for a winger.

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart. Yeah I suppose so, had totally forgotten our initial approach that night to be honest. The personnel was canny different to what was successful last season mind and the Marveaux ploy to stop Baines was abysmal. Harper; Perch, Williamson, Taylor, Santon; Anita, Jonas; Marveaux, Cabaye, Ben Arfa; Cisse was the team. Almost half of our usual starters missing, Ben Arfa playing on the other side and it was only really the right side where we suffered IIRC. Think we've been equally as s**** or worse playing in different ways. You should have seen the prematch thread from the moment the team news was out that day. Then that abysmal, abysmal first half, reverting to 442 at half time (with Ba coming on) and ultimately looking decent value for a draw based on our second half performance. Edit: coincidentally, in that reply is one of the real reasons why we had a stop/start first half of the season. Just look at that back 5 FFS.

Do you really believe Cisse would be on 15+ goals now if only Pardew had told Ba to stick to the left side of the pitch?

The 442/433 is a completely different debate. Whilst you are correct, we also looked superb v Man Utd at home for example in a 442. Whether we play well or not is not all down to a simple matter of pushing a midfield player forward and tucking the remaining midfielders in. Going back to Cisse though, wouldn't you agree his form has been disappointing this season? And if you believe this to be the case, is it not too easy to ignore his own involvement in that and completely lay the blame for it at others? Fact is, if Cisse and Ba were in any way complimentary, we wouldn't even be having this debate..

Not sure why he won't answer this question. His fault as in not a result of outside influences, but his own loss of form. Should we persevere with him? Yes we should, and we have/still are. Should we sacrifice results whilst he regains his form. That's where I draw the line. I'd sooner drop him and play him in the cups/Europe than playing him centrally in a 433 in this kind of hopeless form, that makes us as a team weaker defensively (first and foremost), whilst shipping our in form striker out of the team or playing him where he is nowhere as effective. At the end of last season, I would have said it was Cisse's place to lose. As I've argued in another post on this page, I completely understand why Pardew wanted to try his tested 442 with 2 prolific strikers. It didn't work out. but now that we've learned this unfortunately for Papiss it's Ba's place to lose, as he has delivered while Cisse hasn't.

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart.

Did you notice that last season he was playing in a different system? Did you notice we finished fifth last season playing primarily the much maligned 442 system and were doing pretty well before Cisse even got here? Look, I would love us to go back to that 433 we briefly played at the tail end of last season. It did look quite sexy, Cisse was on fire and we did get some good results. There's no denying though we've also seen how vulnerable we can get when we deploy that formation, so I completely understand Pardew's reasoning in partnering his 2 best strikers up front, both of whom have proven they are capable of 20+ goals a season and building on solid defensive foundations just as we did in the first half of last season. Unfortunately, it hasn't worked out - we look lost for ideas, some of our top performers are hopelessly out of form and we're not where we want to be in the table. That's fair enough, and Pardew needs to change that around if he wants to be in this job after this season. None of that explains why so many people on here seem hellbent on blaming Pardew, Ba, the transfer window or whatever other outside circumstance they can think off before pointing the finger at the players on the pitch who have let us down. Those include Colo and Tiote, but also Cisse, who we know is capable of much better than he is currently showing.

That's not what I'm saying. My point is it's at least partly his fault that he's not performing at anywhere near the level he did last season. 16 vs 62% chance conversion FFS.

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%). In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%). I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12) and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning. Add Opta Stats to that hate list then.. These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner. Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point. So erm, would it be correct to also conclude from those stats that besides scoring 6 "sitters" this season Demba Ba has also scored 5 Premiership goals that weren't clear cut chances created for him as opposed to Cisse's 1 (being extremely generous with that considering he knew nothing about it)? And people give me stick for saying Papiss' finishing and movement have been below par and maybe the player himself is partly to blame for this..?

You do realise that 6 adds up to one every 3 games, don't you? Have you noticed none of these other strikers who are scoring goals get 3 chances per game laid on a plate for them? Did you miss the fact his chance conversion percentage last season was 4 times higher than this season?

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%). In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%). I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12) and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning. Add Opta Stats to that hate list then..

Cisse is feeding off scraps, you're over playing the chances he's getting. Whereas last season we created 20 golden edged chances a match for him? Or whereas we're magically creating shit loads for Demba Ba?

Indeed. You can't call a spade a spade on here. Well, here's one: many of our players, especially our better ones, and I include Cisse in that (as well as Colo and Tiote for example), have not played anywhere close to their ability. They are as much, if not more to blame for our current plight as the default scapegoats this forum loves to slate, such as Simpson, Williamson and more recently Ba and Pardew.

I think it's got to be difficult when he's getting so few chances though, the fact that you're going all the way back to a penalty in September to think of chances he's missing is evidence of that. There's got to be a tendency to snatch at chances when your job is to score goals but you only get one half chance every three games. Conversely, he did draw out a top class save from Hart in the first few minutes, and was a hair away from scoring at Fulham (pulled up for offside, replays showed he really wasn't). Apart from the chances that have been mentioned in the last couple of posts, has he really had any other real opportunities to score that he has squandered? 5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games is damning evidence of our complete lack of creativity for one of the most lethal finishers in the top division. Even if your numbers were right, wouldn't you expect "one of the most lethal finishers in the top division" to put away 3 or maybe 4 out of those 5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games? That's before even going into the fact that Papiss Cisse is an integral part of that forward line that has, as you say a "complete lack of creativity". As I said, it's not just his finishing that's let him (and us) down, it's also his lack of intelligent movement. Quite frankly, a lot of you are making excuses for him which wouldn't have been necessary if he had played anywhere near at the level we know from last season he's capable of. Eh? So you're not factoring in his self confidence issues? Do you not think these make a difference to a center forward when he's faced with the first half chance he's had in 3 games let's say? Look at it this way. Say Cisse played for Man Utd., with their current lineup. How many more chances per game would he be getting (on average), than he is getting at the moment? Do you think he would still be missing those chances, and with 2 goals to his name 4 and a half months into the season? The fact that he can't get into any sort of rhythm up front because of all the chopping up, add to that an obviously massive bout of self-doubt, and our lack of creative variety in the final third, are the causes of his dry spell. He is however, responsible to work even harder, mentally especially, to adjust his game to the new role he finds himself in. He has shown a little more in the last couple of games, so maybe he is doing just that. How does self confidence explain his piss poor start of the season after he was on fire in his first half season in a new league a few months earlier? Also, all the excuses you make (lack of creativity, lack of chances created, lack of continuity in the team) don't detract from the fact Ba got 10 times as many goals when they were paired at the start of the season. Is Papiss Cisse himself beyond criticism? Let me ask you this question: has he lived up to expectations these past couple of months?

How about Ba's?

How is it more valid? "One half chance in three or so games" - seriously? He's had one or more decent chance(s) in every of the last three matches alone, and that was playing out wide. Also, what are his strengths exactly? Are we supposed to carry a desperately out of form striker completely incapable to help us carve out chances, nay even drop our scoring forward for him as some argue, or should his movement and passing contribute to our attacking play maybe?

I think it's got to be difficult when he's getting so few chances though, the fact that you're going all the way back to a penalty in September to think of chances he's missing is evidence of that. There's got to be a tendency to snatch at chances when your job is to score goals but you only get one half chance every three games. Conversely, he did draw out a top class save from Hart in the first few minutes, and was a hair away from scoring at Fulham (pulled up for offside, replays showed he really wasn't). Apart from the chances that have been mentioned in the last couple of posts, has he really had any other real opportunities to score that he has squandered? 5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games is damning evidence of our complete lack of creativity for one of the most lethal finishers in the top division. Even if your numbers were right, wouldn't you expect "one of the most lethal finishers in the top division" to put away 3 or maybe 4 out of those 5 or 6 chances in 10 odd games? That's before even going into the fact that Papiss Cisse is an integral part of that forward line that has, as you say a "complete lack of creativity". As I said, it's not just his finishing that's let him (and us) down, it's also his lack of intelligent movement. Quite frankly, a lot of you are making excuses for him which wouldn't have been necessary if he had played anywhere near at the level we know from last season he's capable of.

I think it's got to be difficult when he's getting so few chances though, the fact that you're going all the way back to a penalty in September to think of chances he's missing is evidence of that. There's got to be a tendency to snatch at chances when your job is to score goals but you only get one half chance every three games. Your memory must be playing tricks with you. He's missed a fair few chances this season so far, big ones too. Also, the argument of being played out wide is extremely lazy considering he's only played their for the past four matches, and even in those he's been central in decent positions a fair few times and cocked it upped through bad movement (Wigan offside for ex.) or bad finishing (City, that header on Saturday).

For all this talk about greedy Demba Ba and tactically clueless Alan Pardew, Papiss Cisse could really help himself first and foremost by starting to score a few goals and looking a genuine goal threat. I'm not having all this talk that he's somehow a massive victim of circumstances beyond his control. In all honesty, he's been piss poor (by his standards) from the start of pre-season both in terms of movement and finishing.

78 points..

Dear oh dear

Shame we didn't lose. Better luck next time.

33 with Van Persie ©, Ivanovic, Hazard (v), Michu and Sterling still to play. For once, I got clean sheets so far from goalkeeper and all defenders