Raconteur

Didn't we try that? David Edgar? So you're advocating bringing in someone younger, less developed and with less first-team experience than Edgar? And, considering Edgar was played ahead of said kid, most likely less talented... At this point in time? Re-signing Carr would almost certainly enhance our playing squad. Yes, it signifies exactly where we are as a club - it's appalling, diabolical, an indictment on every person who has had any authority since... Carr left. But, yes, signing an international right back on a free transfer on "most likely" smallish wages - if his name wasn't Carr, if he was an (largely) unknown Asian or African player never seen before we'd be stoked to sign him. After all, I'm sure that, crap as he is, someone could make a ripping YouTube vid of Carr

That argument doesn't wash with me - it speaks volumes to the player's professionalism. And that's an individual decision, in that each player must decide whether to accept this temporary authority figure, or not. If I were Kinnear that is exactly how I'd start training on Monday, by appealing to the player's professionalism, to their ethic and pride. Something like "The whole world is laughing at us, let's leave the board room shit in the board room and pull together for one month and go from there". Except with more enthusiasm and authority HTT says "Back to the appointment, this is an empty gesture in reality, someone to take Houghton out of the firing line and to show fans that something is being done but it won't change things. The sooner the club gets sold the better " - very true, matters are dire and this situation must be resolved swiftly. The ball is in Ashley's court...

Hmmm... I guess never now that Kinnear has been appointed! I'd lock the thread but it will sink like a stone anyway

Whoa - talk about "left field"! When was the last time he managed?

Now, don't section me just yet As was said in the Venables thread and I'm sure many others, we really are scraping the bottom of the barrell. O'Leary is taking the piss - and I say that having defended Ashley for a lot longer than others. I know there are several impediments to the idea such as: Half of Tyneside want to string him up (no one ever told me why though, but that's a different argument) The players might have similar opinions He quit Leeds because he wasn't interested in the day-to-day responsibilities of management These are valid arguments. But as we all know, this is the Toon, with extra Ashley wackiness. Anything is possible. And "anything" includes the possibility of Wise taking over first team affairs until the club is sold. The "pros" such as they are include: He's half a step away from the job anyway, no matter your perspective on the rights and wrongs of it all He is available He is out on his ass the second the club is sold (again, right or wrong) He's has experience, obviously not the resume of Hitzfeld, but experience He can't say he doesn't know what he's getting himself in for! Anyway, when I saw O'Leary was the serious number two option after Venables, my first thought was "Fuck, I'd rather have Wise". And then I laughed and wondered what the folk of N-O would think of that

That too

I just wish we weren't talking about the same Terry Venables who I hold personally responsible for Australia's failure to qualify for the 1998 World Cup I admit he's been there and done that, he can get the players concentrating on the football, we're desperate, blah blah blah. But my abiding memory of El Tel was that he let a 2-0 lead slip half an hour away from a World Cup berth. His multi-million dollar tactical acumen didn't mean jack shit to us (Australia) when it really counted - I can see why he's an "acceptable" appointment at this moment for the Toon, but I won't have much faith in him... Gee, it's hard work supporting NUFC these days

That is gold

On the one hand, it couldn't have happened to a better club, but if it goes pear shaped big style it will tarnish his reputation and I personally wish him well in his managerial career... In the end though, I can't see the quoted 30 million being paid out - and not for another five years or so, in which time they spend 30m on legal fees trying to get out of it

You seem to have miss-spelt "lazy, crap attitude for a big man". Considering I admitted personal bias and flaws in the player (including attitude), not to mention being written months before he was even signed, well..., I can't say I'm embarrassed you dragged that one up - in fact I'd say it's a frigging crystal ball!

But was Wise ultimately responsible? From the way I read what KK put out, it was Jimenez who pulled out of the Schweinsteiger deal (and therefore the one responsible for creating the tipping point). This would suggest that Wise was indeed less influential than some say, would it not? At which point KK cracks the shits (not unreasonably) - and even then it would have been Llambias or Jimenez that took what control KK had and gave it all to Wise. (By which time all Wise could produce was Xisco and Gonzalez) Someone seems to be suggesting that Wise might be the "inside source" which is indeed a black mark. Unless that was also part of his remit...

An excellent question - one I've asked quite a few times and, like yourself, have yet to have adequately responded to. Unless one includes a second or third hand anecdote...

Oh, and unless I have missed something (and I know about the February interview) I don't believe Dennis Wise has acted inappropriately at all. Indeed, he has done exactly what he was hired to do. Which is why I believe when NUFC.com wails that "the whole Wise situation is ignored" - well, unless I've missed something, what exactly is that situation? What exactly did Wise do that demands his removal to placate the baying mob? Was it for doing the job he was hired to do, the description and parameters of which were obviously redefined sometime in August?

I agree - the structure isn't so uncommon and if we take a step back and think for a moment, is almost certain to become more and more prevalent. SKY money, and Roman Abramovich moved football clubs from the multi-millionaires to the billionaires. The seriously rich simply aren't going to put the investment of millions of pounds in the hands of one man - they do things by committee. As has been said by many supporters of Ashley's attempt to implement "the Arsenal model" - his biggest mistake was choosing Keegan to succeed Allardyce. Simply the wrong man over the long term. As much as I have supported Ashley, fierce KK supporter HTT made an assesment that I find difficult to counter: As owner he is of course ultimately to blame, but if I was Mike Ashley I'd feel let down by Keegan and Llambias. He put too much faith in Keegan's understanding of the vision, and he put way too much trust in Llambias to run the club in his stead.

Did you bother to read anyone else's opinion, or did you just start spouting this shit thoughtlessly...? Keegan has lied repeatedly, why do you believe him? Of course he's not going to be honest and say "Yeah, if I hadn't have been so pig-headed and actually gotten on with the job I was hired to do, then I'd still be boss of NUFC"

Oh aye - I can just see the generous Blackburn board freely releasing Ince from that brand new contract

Perhaps the "owner and director problems" disappeared when the source of those problems walked out the door? Ashley's problem was totally fucking up the Allardyce sacking which forced him into a desperate gamble (hiring a manager patently unsuited to his plans for the club) that has backfired horribly some eight months later. So in answer to the OP question, I want a coach who knows his role. I wanted Deschamps last time and I do again, but I'm disturbed by the quotes attached to his departure from Juventus. Board critics suggest we'll get a "yes man" and the truth is that we need someone who will fit into the structure we have in place. But accepting less than total control over transfers does not stop him from being a tactical whiz, or a fiery motivator, or any of the other skills a successful manager requires. Hell, the current England manager had his players bought for him when he was at some of the biggest clubs in the world...

In such case I have no doubt whatsoever such a dispute would have been referred immediately to Llambias. It's all speculation, but very good points are being made by the likes of KaKa, Edd, mrmojo et al - and not being adequately refuted. mrmojorisin75 suggests: So can Keegan's supporters please come up with something other than "It's all speculative bollocks" or "It's all Wise's fault"? UV asks Well, yes and no. He said (with some cheekiness I'm sure) "I didn't have a brochure this time. It came like a whirlwind — it is like one of those Lastminute.com holidays! There was no brochure — I just came." Secondly, Wise had yet to be appointed, though one must assume negotiations with Wise had already commenced. So no, Keegan was not explicitly told that the hierarchy was Ashley -> Llambias -> Wise -> Jimenez -> Keegan. However, if you think Ashley and Mort hired Keegan without telling him about the imminent appointment of an executive director (football), that Ashley and Mort duped Keegan into believing he would be an old-school manager with sweeping powers while secretly planning to go in exactly the opposite direction, well... I'll take Kaka's logic over yours thanks.

I think Poyet's popularity with the bookies is based on a combination of factors: - Swindon and Tottenham's league performance were positively affected by Poyet's presence as assistant manager - Ferguson's apparent pursuit of Poyet as his assistant - Clearly, his friendship with club executives is a big influence on how the bookies shape their market - there's a very big chance they will indeed give the job to the boy And this is what bothers me - whatever your position on the rights and wrongs of Keegan's departure, appointing Poyet would be PR suicide. It's all very well to be a maverick but Ashley seems bent on loading the bullets for the firing squad.* Besides which, I prefer the Water Carrier, which is why I'm in the Deschamps thread! Bummer to hear about the France job - hope Les Bleus smash Serbia to keep Domenech in a job * I make those comments as someone who has supported Ashley throughout this saga - not without deep misgivings, but support nonetheless.

top post, especially the (bit I put in) bold Yes indeed, a decision was made to take transfer responsibility off Keegan. Well, more than one decision, because it seems to me the acquisition (and disposal) process evolved throughout the summer, culminating in the farcical deadline day. But for me the questions are who made the decision to... relieve Keegan of his transfer duties, and why did they come to that decision.

This is where we are hamstrung by a lack of information which can only be filled with conjecture. I have my theories which I am certain would be very different from yours, and but at this point it becomes a metaphysical debate. You're right when you say it all comes down to what Keegan was told at the job interview - and I repeat that as the "structure" wasn't fully in place then nothing could have been set in concrete when KK signed. But I disagree that the manager-director role would ever have had Keegan on top - the "initial statements" from Wise stand up to scrutiny if you: a) credit Wise with the likes of Tozer, Kadar, Zamblera, Soderbergh, Ranger (at least one of those was before Wise, but my point remains) as well as Academy Director Richard Money. b) Point the finger of blame for Milner/Barton/Smith/Xisco/Gonzalez at Jimenez and Llambias rather than Wise. So it could be said that Wise is doing a wonderful job as Executive Director (Football)

Got proof? Look at his face man, more rat than Splinter from the Turtles and just as deadly I hear with the chop. I'm pretty sure you know more than you're saying, and I'm just as sure you can't say what you know, but you're a "senior" poster here and you know full well you can't make such unsubstantiated claims. I challenge you, sir, to defend your claims, or withdraw...

When a list contains the likes of Venables and O'Leary, then "nice guys" like Zola and Laudrup are always welcomed

I think it's obvious the "rules" by which the club moved forward changed - in a reactionary manner too. For starters Keegan was hired knowing he'd be working under a DoF, but that person had not yet been appointed*. Just that simple fact effects the whole paradigm, from the very off. Indeed, the changeover from Mort to Llambias involved another significant shift given the (reportedly) sharply contrasting personalities One snippet barely touched on in this gargantuan thread is the "showdown" talks in May. Even if you think Keegan agreed to any terms just to get the job, and planned to do his own thing once he had it, then the "showdown" talks would have reminded him very clearly what the rules were - and there is also scope in that conversation to say "Well, this facet isn't working and needs to be addressed". I remember thinking at the time there was no real danger of KK leaving then, that it was all a media beat-up. Well, in hindsight, it probably wasn't, which begs the question: Would it have been better for Keegan (and the club) to have left then? Do Keegan's knights have a rebuttal for the claim that KK refused to work co-operatively with the acquisition team? Consider the Smith and Barton rumours - Keegan apparently (reluctantly) said they could be sold if they were replaced, but claimed Xisco and Gonzalez were not adequate replacements. To me, that demonstrates the acquisition team trying to accomodate Keegan who in return offered only intrastringence, recalcitrance and pure pig-headedness. * The club's statement says that Kevin knew he would be working under a director of football - but NUFC doesn't have one! We have a Vice-President (Player Recruitment) and an Executive Director (Football) - the ambiguity of the titles is clearly intentional (ie they went to the effort of inventing titles!) But the very names point more towards Jimenez rather than Wise as the "underminer"

201 pages is a lot of reading, but having completed that task, may I give kudos to indi (and Baggio) who are giving voice to the 17% of N-O voters who feel that absolutely everyone is responsible for the current debacle... In a debate where passions are inflamed and some posters lose their heads (and not a few violent threats!), it is heartening to see that not all NUFC fans are about to take up pitchforks and torches and march on SJP. Having read through this thread and the Dennis Wise thread, I'm still at a loss to see why Wise has been cast as the villain? What evidence is there that Wise was the one who "undermined" Keegan, that he leaked stories, that he fought some power play, that his goal is to manage NUFC (in fact, didn't he leave Leeds because he wanted to get out of full-time management?) I don't have enough information to form solid opinions, but it seems more logical that, if there was any undermining was going on, then it would more likely be Llambias and Jimenez? Deschamps for the Toon!