merlin

I keep seeing this stuff about KK's knowledge of the transfer market being diluted 'because of his time out of the game'... Back in 92, he had been in Spain, playing golf, for 8 YEARS before he came back to manage NUFC - his first signing, Kilcline, helped keep the club up, and for around 1m he bought Venison, Beresford and Bracewell who all formed a crucial part of the 92/93 Promotion side AND went on to establish the club in the Prem. He also signed Robert Lee in 1992 when he had only been back for 6 months.. Need I say more ?

Of course I am, our club has been littered with more Souness' than Keegans, he was our Fergie. Looking back, what he achieved was phenomenal Bob. I don't think any one else could have done what he did for us at the time and it is no coincidence that after he left, we struggled for years to move on and I fear history will repeat itself once more. Our Fergie? So far the career major trophy score stands at about 40 - 0 in Fergie's favour. Fergie never walked out or quit on Man U either even during the darkest hours. And when did Fergie ever have Dennis Wise & people like Jiminez & Vetere picking his players for him ?? You wouldn't have seen him for dust in that scenario...

Could he do both? I seem to remember Hiddink managing a club while being the boss of Australia. If Walt Disney was still alive, he could be DOF and his No 1 Protege, Mickey Mouse would be the bus - I mean, Coach....Oh Wait - we HAVE a small, garrulous person on the staff already...! People like Hiddink , despite being foreign, wouldn't even look at the NUFC set-up ; Sven would if he was stuffed for a job, but only because the money would be handy, so where does that leave your DOF theory? NOBODY of any stature will want this job if they don't have absolute power over who comes in & who goes out...

I'm surprised that you can't see a difference from reporting to the Chairman of the football club and reporting to somebody who is less qualified than Keegan. I've never tried to defend Keegan until last night, until last night I was giving him a lot of the blame. What has changed is that now I know that we've all been lied to and I now know that the job Keegan was given has changed in the last 3 months. Yes, that's exactly it Mick - I have ALWAYS been aware that KK has a potentially short fuse and one day could walk again, but in this case it is perfectly clear that the job he was given HAS changed in the past few months, and this is directly Ashley's responsibility because HE brought in the set-up with Wise, Jiminez , Vetere and Llambias...because Ashley has taken a back seat, THEY have assumed more & more power for themselves and eventually KK has, RIGHTLY, had enough. I don't blame him for the situation in this case - a manager must stand or fall by his own decisions and none of us would have blamed the Board if they had fired him AFTER giving him a free rein(within reasonable budget)on transfers, and THEN it all went pear-shaped. Ashley has messed-up BIG-TIME, as he has been prone to do over the past few months - he and the Board should go, and a takeover is the only way this can be resolved to most fans' satisfaction ; even if they get over the current crisis, a bad taste will remain in many people's mouths and a fair number will never go back. I am personally disgusted that after all the relative progress of the past 15 years the club has once again shot itself in the foot and let down the fans..I would not blame anyone for saying they had had enough.

Just answer the question;- WOULD WENGER OR FERGUSON HAVE ACCEPTED THE TRANSFER POLICY, YES OR NO ? There are far too many fans on here who think that by appointing a 'Foreign' manager, everything will be OK - Interesting that some Bookies are now making KKs REPLACEMENT only 16/1 for being the NEXT Prem manager to be fired/leave..

Just like in 1977, when the club ended up being relegated and all the decent players(Kennedy, Tommy Craig, Mickey Burns etc)being sold because they'd had enough....

Spot-on Alan, and one of the reasons I always thought he WOULD be a good manager - one day..

Good point, never really thought about it like that. This IS true, but whilst it would irk anyone who is a winner, it wouldn't make them want to leave the club ; The main issue is STILL that decisions over buying/selling had been taken out of his hands.

You cannot say they haven't added quality. Gutierrez is one of the best players I have seen play for the club in a long time. Coloccini is pure class. If you think this it is obvious you are a younger supporter who has never seen players who made Gutierrez look ordinary - Ginola for one and that's just in the LW position. No doubt you have been told that everything continental is 'good' and everything British is 'bad' from the brainwashing that now occurs in schools, but its crap. The most successful clubs in the Prem do NOT run a 'continental' system ; Man U, Arsenal(Wenger is on record as saying the the day Arsenal bring in a DOF is the day he walks out of the door, and he ALSO believes that more should be done to bring through ENGLISH youngsters)and Liverpool just for starters. despite 2 of them having foreign managers. As NE5 & HTT say, Ashley(or whoever is behind it)can stick his system where the sun don't shine because it has cost the club stability and NO - repeat - NO manager worth his salt would stand for being a fall-guy/Yes man for a bunch of non-entities like the people running NUFC now. You can bet your bottom dollar that Rijkaard & Co would NOT accept what KK had to put up with(reputedly)and would be gone if their clubs tried to buy/sell players they had not agreed to or wanted. And, would a top club like Real Madrid or AC Milan appoint a former Casino manager to be MD of a huge club like NUFC..??

None of this discussion alters the basic point of contention - that the manager was NOT consulted on these selling/buying decisions which is was KK has said in his statement ; just because ICNewcastle have published an article which MAY have had Oliver's input is neither here nor there because the basic issue which caused all this trouble was lack of consultation with the manager. People should keep that firmly in mind because it must be sorted out.

I'm sick of writing seasons off, it's beyond a joke now. This is true Mick - there will be big-time repercussions for the club after all this. Its the last straw for many fans - that will become apparent as the season goes on...

Disagree - NOT in a good position on the pitch if we get 2 or 3 important players injured; Owen almost certain to go by Jan and will not have his heart in it now; WILL be involved in relegation scrap if we get the injuries mentioned above Unless we get a takeover soon, the club will struggle - reminds me of the time Dinnis came in after Lee went to Everton, only in that case the BOARD didn't want him ; in this case, the fans/players are unlikely to be happy if, for example, Wise & his buddy take over.. Don't underestimate how badly internal strife can affect a club, esp one like NUFC where unhappiness OFF the field feeds through to players..seen it all before.

I honestly think this thread is a waste of time - it would have been better to title it; 'WHO, OF ANY STATURE IN MANAGEMENT, IS GOING TO BE STUPID ENOUGH TO REPLACE KK AT NUFC ?' KK has gone because, as his statement makes clear, he was given players he didn't ask for and by implication, the main decisions of management taken out of his hands. As some of you will know, I have been a fan of this club since before we won the Fairs Cup in 1969, and was involved in the Magpie Group ousting of McKeag & Co ; since then, we have had some low periods(none of which we in the Group envisaged happening when the Takeover was successful in 1992), but all coinciding with either bad management or interference/bad decsision-making from the Board. I have to say that NONE of those down periods left the club in the dire situation it now faces ; we(rightly)blamed the last few years on Shepherd's bad decisions but thought that a takeover by someone with money/business acumen would solve the problems - well, we've had that, and its failed, MISERABLY.. Ashley has clearly not got either the will to fund the club(although his clearance of the debts is praiseworthy), or the necessary means to fund it ; even worse, he is now shown not to have the necessary business/management skills to run it . SJH warned him,, when he bought the shares, that he was NOT just buying a business, but an institution that was a major part of the lives of thousands of fans - Ashley has clearly ignored that warning totally. He dithered about Allardyce, even though he agreed with SJH that he wouldn't have been his choice, so we ended up having yet ANOTHER rebuilding job after Allardyce failed and KK was brought back. He compounded that error by then landing KK with a tier of Board management that anyone with a degree of sense would know was not acceptable to Keegan, so , to cut a long story short, we now end up with the current situation, mirrored to some extent by that at West Ham. There will undoubtedly be some ambitious person, probably foreign or young, who will take the NUFC job either as a fill-in until something better comes along or because they think they can 'work with the system'. Neither reason will be any benefit to the club or fans in the long-term because either way, the guy will end up gone - no-one can be happy with a situation where your staff are obtained for you, not in football anyway, because the manager knows what he as an individual is looking for in either the player's character or particular skills and if he doesn't feel happy with what he gets, he ends up with a failing side and the sack...... The regime is now as badly-tarred by this as was Shepherd by his handling of SBR - the only hope for a reasonable outcome is that someone who HAS got proper Directional skills AND money takes over the club ASAP ; I am hoping that this will happen soonest, because I do believe there is a chance of KK returning under a different regime given that he got the necessary powers back, OR that we could then recruit someone of genuine stature in the game. I would be astonished if Shearer took the job knowing why KK had left it ; I have no doubt that he WOULD be interested under a regime he trusted. This week has seen the club at an all-time low, and I do not say this lightly - even back in 92, we felt that we would come back if we went down, but this feels like the end of the road in some ways because the way forward is littered with minefields both on & off the field - many fans will not forgive the way this has been handled and rightly so ; when KK went last time, we were in a great position and Dalglish was in quickly so we finished 2nd in the Prem. No such happy outcome is going to happen this time and the club's name is mud. I feel sorry for the younger fans because I don't think we've yet seen the worst of days unless there is a wholesale change for the better in the club's ownership ; the Man C takeover has altered the whole of football now and NOT for the better. This is one of the worst days in the history of Newcastle United.

Agree totally - no way are they going down this season, and if KK leaves, people ought to be more concerned about NUFC going down than them... Keane is doing a decent job and if they gradually improve then they will start to get the sort of corporate backing that NUFC used to get..after all, would YOU back NUFC after all this and if KK leaves when you could back what looks to be a more stable club ? NUFC has become a complete joke, whereas SAFC are making progress - arrogance has often been punished in the crazy world of football(look at once-mighty Leeds now) so don't be tempted to indulge in it; He who laughs last laughs longest and who know ? Maybe the Fates have decided that its THEIR turn to be Top Dogs - after all NUFC haven't exactly made the most of it..! they wont be top dogs, average manager, average players. There big spending wont last forever. We are the last ones who should be talking about 'big spending not lasting forever' because we haven't even started yet.. Quite a lot of people thought Derby Co had 'average players , average manager' when Clough got them promoted back in 1969..they went on to prove everyone wrong.. Not saying Keane is Clough, but disagree about 'average'.. Remember what I said about arrogance...

Agree totally - no way are they going down this season, and if KK leaves, people ought to be more concerned about NUFC going down than them... Keane is doing a decent job and if they gradually improve then they will start to get the sort of corporate backing that NUFC used to get..after all, would YOU back NUFC after all this and if KK leaves when you could back what looks to be a more stable club ? NUFC has become a complete joke, whereas SAFC are making progress - arrogance has often been punished in the crazy world of football(look at once-mighty Leeds now) so don't be tempted to indulge in it; He who laughs last laughs longest and who know ? Maybe the Fates have decided that its THEIR turn to be Top Dogs - after all NUFC haven't exactly made the most of it..!

If KK leaves, it won't be without a payout - the fact that this has dragged on so long indicates that hard bargaining is taking place & it can't now be about Llambias, Wise etc - if that HAD been the case, Ashley would have said yea or nay by now ; this looks to be about money.. KK DOES love NUFC I'm sure, but he has NEVER been slow to undervalue himself, right from the day Shankly wanted to sign him from Scunthorpe - he refused Shanks' offer of 45 pounds a week and insisted on 50 - this from a kid being offered a place at the best club in England when he was playing in the Fourth Division.. What concerns me most now is that if he DOES go, we shall have a really difficult job getting a top manager. The club will be in a terrible predicament..

Good post - this is probably the best scenario we could hope for in order to settle things down quickly. Personally think Llambias has to go if things are to be kept stable until Ashley sells ; would get Mort back in as Chairman or a guy with more experience of football - Dein would be perfect but highly unlikely.. Actually CAN see Wise staying on but only in a much-reduced role with NO day-to-day input to the running of the club like Players' contracts etc..if that is not acceptable, he should go too. No way can the status quo be reinstated - there will be very little confidence from most supporters that this would work and they'd be right ; KK would blow up again, but I cannot see him readily accepting a return to the former set-up. This is probably why the talks are dragging on because Ashley will know that he has to pay at least one, and probably two, contracts off. Ashley should go and see Peter Robinson, formerly of Liverpool, and ask him how a decent club is run..! The answer would probably be to get the right people in the right jobs....

Telegraph now saying that Gus Poyet is a candidate for the job, as is Moyes - inevitably, given the ever-growing Spanish connection, Marcelino of Real Zaragoza is another... I suspect that it will be difficult for KK and the Board to wok successfully together again, so although NOTHING surprises me about NUFC, it will raise the eyebrows if KK returns as manager with the set-up unchanged.

This is a great post - I have avoided making any comment on this situation until now because the situation wasn't really clarified and I still don't think it is... However, what macca says contains a great deal of truth. I agree with the vast majority of his comments and think that Ashley does deserve a great deal of credit for clearing the club's debts, run up by a thoughtless and short-sighted regime. I know, from first hand knowledge that KK has a tendency to do this sort of thing, and in my opinion, he was wrong to walk in March 1992 when all the controversy about Kilcline's fee blew up ; the fault was the Bank's, not SJH who had put personal money into the club to buy Kilcline but KK didn't wait to see the matter resolved before going...as we know, it was all sorted out and the rest is history. Where I WOULD have sympathy for KK is if the current Board have over-ruled him regarding transfers, esp that of Milner, and I also think more could have been done earlier to bring in players. Macca's point about players not wanting to come to SJP is quite correct though - as I keep saying, many fans just don't realise how far the club has fallen in 5 years and unfortunately, mud sticks.. Nevertheless, I think there has been an unnecessary parsimony about signings - knowing that the club needs to at least keep pace with its peers in the Prem, and facing the geographical and historical disadvantages that it does, the Board SHOULD have been prepared, at least for this window, to go over their valuations to get reinforcements because we could be even FURTHER behind by next season and the same problems will be there... As to provision of funds, although none of us are in a position to advise or criticise Ashley's Investments, it was stupid of him, knowing the financial climate prevailing, to take a risk on a quick profit at B&B(or wherever it was) and lose 100m - this would have been better used at SJP... Macca is right about Mark Hughes, although I doubt that he would put up with any interference from the Board if that HAS been happening - Hughes will, in my opinion, go on to make Man C a very strong club and become one of the top managers in the Prem ; he may have been tipped off that the Arabs were likely to come in, which is why he was happy to take the job when he made it clear that he wasn't really interested in SJP after Allardyce was sacked.. As to the current situation, it is clearly not ideal - it looks as if Llambias & Wise may have fired KK and Ashley has then overruled them ; either that or both parties are seeking the best financial settlement. In any event, neither situation is going to benefit the club - where it goes from here is anyone's guess because there is no obvious replacement other than Shearer, and that looks unlikely.. As I said in a post last week - 'the more things change, the more they stay the same at NUFC..'

Totally agree - far too many people unwilling to face reality...the new Board have been a success in clearing debts but a failure in moving the club forward fast enough to keep pace with those behind even the top 6 ; we are a mid-table club for the foreseeable future and risk being overtaken by both the Mackems AND Boro, the latter whose Academy leaves ours standing... The table will prove who is right by January. Only point I'm picking up on is re the Academy. I'd give the board credit for the number of young players being bought to fit into the academy and reserve team regardless on your thoughts with the first team signings The difference is that Boro have ALREADY brought a number of decent players from their youth set-up into their first team(Wheater etc) .. NUFC have really got NOBODY ready to do that - last night's result told you that.... Promise is one thing - realising it is another, and they are years ahead of us.

Totally agree - far too many people unwilling to face reality...the new Board have been a success in clearing debts but a failure in moving the club forward fast enough to keep pace with those behind even the top 6 ; we are a mid-table club for the foreseeable future and risk being overtaken by both the Mackems AND Boro, the latter whose Academy leaves ours standing... The table will prove who is right by January.

Yes, totally agree - the difference is that apart from the huge resources they now have, they have one of the best young managers in the league in Hughes ; they will become a fixture in the Top 4 within 2 years and we will be even further down the pecking order than ever.. Although I think the fee for Robinho is excessive, it shows that they are prepared to take on the Big Boys.. Unless NUFC are able to gain access to this sort of money, the only way we will ever have a successful side is to build one from Academy players and shrewd buying of young players... Money rules all now and we are not even at the races - sad but true.

It has on quite a number of people, and exactly how much of a mess I have a horrible feeling that we are about to find out.....!

and not having one wouldn't benefit them how? they could develop an even stronger grip on the league than they do now man, especially chel$ki who'd sign a new player when ballack got a cold or something Because all potential targets now KNOW that if they wait until transfer windows, they are in with a chance of going to a top 4 side ; if NUFC was able to approach one of these players in mid-season BEFORE they knew for sure that Man U etc wanted them, they would be tempted to sign for us or any similar club....this is especially likely with clubs who do NOT have a PLC rating as their financial activities have less rigidity than PLC clubs - they don't have to show results/profits at 6 monthly intervals, for example... If you are younger than 45 you are unlikely to remember how important it was for NUFC to make signings in the season ; Tony Green was one, and he virtually saved the club from relegation - if the window had been operating then, we would have gone down.Terry Mac was another really good signing, and we pinched him from under Liverpool's noses because we had a better scouting network in that area and we acted before they did ; window would have prevented all that.. The window makes it easier for top clubs to tap players who then know they just have to wait until it suits the buying club to get their move ; and these clubs have planned their transfer budget to the windows.

Totally against - signings mid-season create more interest and prevent the mad scramble that happens now ; I think it benefits mainly the Top Clubs.