merlin

i always think its a bit of a myth to say our defence cost us under Keegan, i think it was more of a case of throwing games away as a team. the season we lost the 12 point lead we only conceded 2 more goals than man utd and between 93-97 we conceded 165 goals compare that to the champions between 93-97 - 156 goals hardly a drastic diffrence. Yes, but one goal was the one scored by Cantona at SJP, and the other was by Collymore at Liverpool , both of which cost us at least 4 points.....

Really ? Can you answer something for me, and I'm sure quite a few people may also be interested [but may ignore the reply if it doesn't suit them]. Why did Sir John Hall - as major shareholder along with his son - allow, agree or maybe even choose - the appointment of Souness ? I would also like to say that you would have a lot to do to convince me that the Halls simply wouldn't have sold to anyone who offered the going rate ie your comment that "he was convinced by Ashley" ? Once SJH stepped away from being stand-in Chairman in 98(after the NOTW debacle), he stopped having any direct day-to-day involvement with the club ; I am not going to go into detail(it is very personal and I believe Sir John & his wife wish to draw a veil over the whole affair)as I wish to respect SJH's privacy, but I was given to understand that he DID wish to continue as Chairman AFTER the Wembley defeat with Dalglish - unfortunately, events prevented this from happening ; I will not enlarge any further on that matter... He then stepped away from direct involvement, with one exception - that was to 'encourage' the Board to get moving & appoint Bobby Robson just over a year later. He did NOT use his shareholding to do that. He had no involvement, so far as I am aware, in the appointment of Souness or Roeder.That was down to Shepherd & the other Board members. As for the sale of his holding, he had wanted out for a while, but he did NOT sell until he had had a long discussion with Mike Ashley - if he had only been interested in getting the dosh, he would have left all that to the Lawyers etc - he definitely was of the opinion that MA was genuine about wanting the club for reasons other than a fast buck. You are entitled to your opinion about whether he sold for the 'right' reasons or not - I cannot prove or disprove it either way, but you should currently be happy about the way Ashley & Mort are running the club as compared to the previous regime - are you I will be happy if Ashley backs the managers and shows the ambition that Sir John [and his son and Shepherd] showed, which I've stated many many times. This appears to fall on deaf ears, yours too, if the above post is anything to go by. I accept he stepped away from day to day involvement, this is fairly obvious, but I simply cannot believe that someone holding a mega million value in a business, left the single biggest and most important decision to someone else with a smaller shareholding. I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't wash. The part of your post I have highlighted I can accept, if true, which proves what myself and a few others ie Chez Given have been trying to tell quite a few others for a while now. But I still don't expect certain people to take such statements on board anyway. As you can see, I am praising Sir John for what I think he did excellently, so there is certainly no axe to grind or no agenda here, simply putting across the facts as I see them and applying common sense. And I also don't believe for a moment that he would not have sold to the hedge fund, or anyone else if they had paid the price required. I admire you for defending Sir John, but if I had such a big stake in a company like that, I wouldn't leave such decisions to other people. As for the one reply so far other than mine, as I said, macca888 has spouted rubbish for years. Is it possible that he left the decisions to protect his 'intersts' to Doug Hall? It might be hard to have any input (of value) on managerial appointments if you don't keep up with current affairs in football. This isn't an opinion of mine, just trying to understand Merlins comments on SJH's lack of involvement. Yes, you are quite right - Sir John handed over the reins at Cameron Hall back in 1993, and NUFC after he stepped down in 98 after we lost at Wembley.His view was that the next generation had to do the job if possible, and by 98, he was 65 so most of us in the Magpie Group understood that he wanted some free time after such a busy life. Lady Mae also wanted him to take things easier too. No-one can go on forever, and eventually things have to change - at least he tried to ensure that he was leaving the club in good hands when he eventually sold.

That team could have so easily dominated Europe with some of the players they had, shame about the fans letting them down, although that's a debate I don't want to bring up in this discussion. I mean Rush and Aldridge, both prolific and would be worth how much now? We all know the genius of Pedro. Barnes on his club form was one of the best players on the planet before that injury robbed him of his pace. Hansen we all know was fantastic, Stevie Nicol, criminally underrated by fans now etc. Before any makes a remark I'm not a Liverpool fan, just a fan of good football. A few things spring to mind here. One is that Dalglish improved an already top quality side into one which had more flair and became even better. Just what was needed when he came to Newcastle. Which makes it even more difficult to understand why he did what he did. Two is that John Barnes in a way mirrors what Irving Nattrass maybe could have been. Barnes was a talented player playing within himself at Watford, but moving to a club with real winners in it rubbed off on him and he stepped up a gear. Totally. Dalglish was a phenomenal player, some of the play between him and Rushy had to be seen to be believed. I remember one pass he played, was close to genius. He was on the right wing, ball comes out of defence into opposition half. He had his back to goal but flicks the ball first time with the outside of his right boot so the ball curls into the inside right channel inch-perfect for Rush to run onto in between two defenders and slot it from outisde the box. Jan Molby's passing was great but his scouse-danish accent was better EDIT - was Dalglish better than Keegan? (who he replaced) I meant as a manager mate, but yes you are right he probably improved them as a player too. In fact, if my memory is correct, the 3 players who played for Liverpool in 1978 that didn't play in 1977 were Dalglish, Hansen and Souness. Keegan, Dalglish and Beardsley were all great players on merit though. Food for thought though, is who has been the most successful British player who played overseas ? The best export for me is Keegan out of those mentioned. Agreed - was hero-worshipped at Hamburg. On the subject of being able to watch the great individuals we had in the 70's - Green, for me, was the best ; although he only played for 38 games(career ended by Mel Blyth at Crystal Palace, cruciate ligament) this boy was something else ; Beardsley perhaps had a bit more trickery at his peak, but Green would have left him standing over 5 yards - he was electric, and his right foot was like a wand. Had a powerful shot too. Would have been worth 30m today. Gazza could have been the greatest English player of all time had he possessed Pele's temperament, but, as NE5 says, we have a much better CLUB now and the stadium is light-years away from what we had to stand in, even though standing was great. I once remember being in a toilet like a pig-sty, and someone remarking that the bog was 'HIV positive !!' - it was running with urine on the floor...!! Still, the atmosphere was superb - remember the noise when we beat Spurs 3-1 in the LC Semi in 1976 - absolutely brilliant. All this reminds me - we are getting old...!!!

As KeithKettleborough says, it was Kennedy's move to L/Pool which gained him his medals - Nattrass was a better defender, but had a bad injury when we played B/Ham in a bad-tempered series of games in 1973, just as he was coming into his own - Kenny Burns nearly took his leg off with a tackle which would probably have got him banned for life these days... Nattrass recovered, but in addition to the time out of the game, he was used in a variety of positions because of his versatility - I reckon one of his best-ever games was in midfield against Liverpool. Kennedy was a tad quicker going forward, but tended to dive in on wingers instead of jockeying them. Both were class players who would have been worth millions today - we could have had a really decent defence back in 75/76 if we had had an ambitious board who would have backed a move for a top CH like Beattie at Ipswich, or Watson from the Mackems(went to Man City) ; that was all that stopped us from being a side chasing Europe every year at that time, or even winning something - we came very close with the 2-1 defeat by Man C at Wembley when haif the team had flu. KeithKettleborough's assessment is very good, although I reckon Nattrass was a much better footballer than Steven Taylor.

Really ? Can you answer something for me, and I'm sure quite a few people may also be interested [but may ignore the reply if it doesn't suit them]. Why did Sir John Hall - as major shareholder along with his son - allow, agree or maybe even choose - the appointment of Souness ? I would also like to say that you would have a lot to do to convince me that the Halls simply wouldn't have sold to anyone who offered the going rate ie your comment that "he was convinced by Ashley" ? Once SJH stepped away from being stand-in Chairman in 98(after the NOTW debacle), he stopped having any direct day-to-day involvement with the club ; I am not going to go into detail(it is very personal and I believe Sir John & his wife wish to draw a veil over the whole affair)as I wish to respect SJH's privacy, but I was given to understand that he DID wish to continue as Chairman AFTER the Wembley defeat with Dalglish - unfortunately, events prevented this from happening ; I will not enlarge any further on that matter... He then stepped away from direct involvement, with one exception - that was to 'encourage' the Board to get moving & appoint Bobby Robson just over a year later. He did NOT use his shareholding to do that. He had no involvement, so far as I am aware, in the appointment of Souness or Roeder.That was down to Shepherd & the other Board members. As for the sale of his holding, he had wanted out for a while, but he did NOT sell until he had had a long discussion with Mike Ashley - if he had only been interested in getting the dosh, he would have left all that to the Lawyers etc - he definitely was of the opinion that MA was genuine about wanting the club for reasons other than a fast buck. You are entitled to your opinion about whether he sold for the 'right' reasons or not - I cannot prove or disprove it either way, but you should currently be happy about the way Ashley & Mort are running the club as compared to the previous regime - are you

Richard Keys dubbed us the entertainers in our first season back in the prem. After the game away against Oldham, where we won 1-3. Going a goal down first then coming back to win. Correct.

Ashley and Mort have done a brilliant job with the club up to now - SJH was convinced about Ashley, and so far, he has proved to be right ; as some of you know, I know Sir John and am certain that until he had health problems in the mid-late 90s, he was doing a fine job as Chairman... I was never a fan of the Shepherd Board, and I believe NUFC fans have been really lucky to have Ashley & Mort on board. Yes, they will want a profit in the end, but I do believe they have the best interests of the Club(and fans) at heart, and I believe Mike Ashley just wants to enjoy his money - he certainly seems to be doing that, and I just hope we can win something soon because I reckon he would be a dyed-in-the-wool Black & White after sampling what that would mean to the Club & fans - if we did, just watch the sort of investment Sam would get then...!!! To date, both owner & Chairman have done everything we could have asked - one has paid off a huge debt and the other has run the club in an exemplary manner. I'm really pleased with what they have done - a very big 'Thank you' is in order.

Have been away for a couple of days enjoying the delights of Oz's SW(no, NOT THOSE delights..!), but watched the recording before we left on Tues a.m.(game was on at 3 a.m. our time) Reckon it was the best performance to date - we were never in serious trouble and I was glad to be proved wrong after forecasting a 2-2 ; thought Spurs were extremely poor considering the cost of their squad, and even though we outplayed them, it is obvious that something is seriously wrong at WHL - Jol is bound to be gone soon. Having said that, we would have beaten many good sides on that performance ; Faye & Cacapa were superb at the back(has there EVER been a better value for money double signing than that?), and I was not surprised to see Cacapa get a goal - I reckon he will get at least 5 over the season, a really class defender who reads the game superbly.. Owen & Martins caused them problems, more so than I thought, because Owen is proving to be a really good footballer who can also lead the line as well as score goals and Martins' pace worried Dawson. The midfield played some of the best passing game we've seen from them since the season started and I suppose the influence of Emre(and, to a lesser extent, Barton when he came on), made a difference to our possession play which was better than all season ; once we can sort out a bit better movement off the ball, we shall really start to look a side to be reckoned with. Let's hope this is not a false dawn, and that we start to win away, beginning with Reading - a few good away results will have the top sides looking over their shoulders .... All in all, every reason to be satisfied with the result and improving performance - we may yet have a good bit to say in how this season finishes.....

Reckon this match will be either a 2-2 draw, or 2-1 to Spurs - unfortunately.

No because we are in the UK where the currency is pounds sterling. Besides which the dollars value is dropping like a tarts knickers these days so all those estimates of wealth are undoubtedly wrong. 'We are in the UK where the currency is the pound sterling'....well, I hope you enjoy it while it lasts, pal, because after last Friday's stitch-up by your Govt, your currency will soon be the Euro - you, know, the one that the Frech & Germans are complaining about because its now 'too strong' against the dollar, so they can't sell the Yanks their cars, cheese, wine, perfume etc etc.... Maybe the assets should have been quoted in Euros...!!

As an add-on to the above, I cannot see Allardyce being allowed to manage both NUFC & England, and I can't see Ashley going for that either, so its one or the other.

If he goes, he goes - as long a its at the end of the season(or provided the likes of Mourinho, Hiddink etc are available), we are now in a MUCH better position to attract another TOP manager than when Shepherd was in charge. I cannot see anything happening until England's demise is definite, and even then, the FA would probably wait until the end of the Season so they didn't have to cough up compensation - something they know Ashley is in a very strong position to enforce legally....

Agreed. No-one's going to bid anything like that money. I think he's probably worth slightly less than what we paid. He's done okay, he's got some good goals and he's also missed a few. A good assessment...

When the ball's at your feet, you trip up, You run like your feet are stuck in muck, SHOOOOOLA, SHA SHA SHA SHOOOOLA. s***, but what do you expect in 1 minute of thought? Not bad - its got promise...!! How about a first verse of; 'Saw him at the ground on old Tyneside Where they drink Brown Ale and its NOT like Cherry Cola Co Co Co Co Cola... He walked up to Sam and asked him to play Sam asked him his name and he said 'I'm the STAR- SHOLA - Sho Sho Sho Sho SHOLA...' This is also crap, but again,made up in a couple of mins.. Any advance on this..!!

Has no-one ever thought of making up a song about Shola ? As I remember it(I heard the original, so that tells you how old I am !), the Kinks did a good'un titled 'LOLA'....!! Come on guys - I bet someone could come up with a cracker to that tune....!

I've told you before that Murdoch's crowd have it in for NUFC and have done since 96 when we scared the pants off them by nearly beating Manure to the title - they thought the had seen us off for good once Shepherd was in charge, but its all starting up again because we now have big money behind us and someone who is not a cretin as manager. Whilst I think there is substance in Owen being unsettled, I believe its our own fans who have made the situation worse ; the Sun are just capitalising on our bent for committing collective suicide. All this will only end by either our winning a trophy or Owen leaving, but even then, it will start up again if we show the remotest hint of long-term success.

If you think we've even got a hope of signing Huntelaar when Chelsea have already made it clear he is one of their targets, its time for a reality check - if we lose Owen - highly likely in my opinion - we are going to have a hell of a job getting anyone who will score 20 goals per season ; City are already doing well without him and even if he misses half their games, he will do enough to get them into the Top 5 - probably at our expense...

This is quite likely to happen now - Anelka is a good player and I would have him in preference to Ameobi or even Martins; but NOT Owen if he stays fit and look what happened with Woodgate - hardly played whilst with us , but hasn't missed many for Boro... If Owen moves to City, he will come back and stuff the boos right back down the ignorant throats of the plebs who made them but the only trouble is that even decent fans have to be on the end of the same humiliation.

Gary Speed was an exemplary pro whilst a player and would be a great asset to us in my opinion - he might also be a candidate for manager in a few years as he & Shearer shared many opinions about the game and the lack of professionalism among the younger players at NUFC.. As someone has already stated, though - what about Terry Mac..!!! Oh wait - there's a Bookies' Runner needed down the road...

Nail absolutely on head - I honestly believe, Scousertommy, that the damage is already done - you could tell by Owen's reaction/facial expression when he came on as sub last Sunday, that he is really p-----ed off by the childish, small-minded booing which, despite protestations to the contrary by those responsible,are definitely aimed at him because he happened to take 'poor' Oba's place..if it wasn't so mindlessly stupid, it would be laughable ! People come on this site slagging off Owen & bigging up Martins - they say 'Oba's only young' and 'give him a chance, he's still learning' ; What Bulls---t ! Just remind these pea-brains how old Owen was when he scored one of the best World Cup goals of all time against the Argies, and how old he was when he scored a brilliant Hat-trick against NUFC at SJP on the day we had 'Sexy Football' Gullit making his managerial debut..!! All you have said, Scouser, is right on the nail and those of us who still remember when NUFC fans were amongst the most knowledgeable in the game despair at how poor some modern-day fans have become in both recognizing talent and realising where we stand in the game at this point in time. Still, who knows ? Maybe Rafa will be away in Summer and perhaps Owen will be back in your colours - I for one wouldn't blame him, but the saddest thing is that some of our so-called 'supporters' would use it as an excuse to call him a traitor ; it would be a good way for them to avoid any responsibility for driving him out..

Spot-on, Gemmill - I am getting to believe that because Owen IS a top striker, undoubtedly England's best bet for a goal, many NUFC fans have a big Chip-on-shoulder syndrome about him ; they know, deep down, that the club hasn't been the successful environment which a player like Owen normally wants, and that because he asked for an escape clause in his Contract(and who wouldn't when joining a club who had so much turmoil & lack of success as NUFC), they fear he may leave and by so doing, confirm that the Club is NOT among the winners of the Prem. People have conveniently forgotten how Shearer was unfortunate enough to have many months out with injury during his first couple of years with the club,but no-one was accusing him of not being interested in playing for us, simply because he's a Geordie....also, Les Ferdinand was a far better striker than Martins will ever be, yet no-one thought that Shearer was taking his place, despite being given the No 9 shirt... We were DESPERATE for someone of Owen's calibre to join the club because Shearer was finishing, AND getting past it, so even though Owen HAS had long periods out, we were still lucky to get him. Where would we be now without his goals this season ?? As you rightly say, Martins is not and will NOT be the answer, but because he doesn't play for England(and is therefore not a favourite of the Cockney Press!), some fans see him as more a 'Newcastle' player ; i.e, inconsistent, like the Club, and not one of the 'Establishment' which Owen represents - a bit of reverse-snobbery, if you like... Unfortunately, the type of reaction we are seeing to Owen, both on this site and by the booing of Martins being replaced by him/singing of Martins' name when Owen comes on, is likely to grant fans their wishes ; I believe that Owen HAS been affected by it all, and will definitely leave if we fail to qualify for Europe this season - those fans responsible will only have themselves to blame, and the rest of us have to live with the consequences of it..just who are we going to replace him with - Huntelaar? He is probably the best option, but out of our reach, and Chelsea have targeted him already. All this could put Sam's rebuilding job back by a couple of years - all footballers are mercenaries, and to land Owen with all the blame for being one is ludicrous.

Especially if he had taken Martins' place in the side before scoring the Hat-trick, or, even worse, if he came on as sub for Martins and THEN scored the winner...!!

If Arsenal had wanted Martins, they would have bought him - they didn't. I don't care one bit if Owen DOES keep Martins out of the team ; it would mean he was fit, and a fit Owen is 3 times the player that Martins is, or will ever be ; he's 22(or is it 23 or even 28.!)and if he hasn't got decent first touch now, he never will have. I would be interested to hear your decision if asked to select from EITHER a fit Owen or Martins to play in our last 3 games if we needed , say, 7 points to avoid relegation OR qualify for Europe.....

that's funny, cos Martins' movement, control, passing and link up play was just as good as Smith's was. there were two or three slack moments through the entire game but every player has these, Smith included who misjudged a few passes out wide and put in a poor pull-back into the box when Martins was in space, in the move that led up to the goal. Smith's best contribution to the match was a great through-ball to Martins, but Martins timing, anticipation and run were impeccable on that occasion. then again Martins played a lovely first-touch layoff, with his back to goal holding off an everton player, to Smith about 5 mins before the goal went in, that Smith had deflected wide. maybe you forgot that. weird that some people always feel a need to slag Martins off, even when he has a decent match. his problem yesterday was missing a great chance and fading badly in the 2nd half (along with smith and most of our side!) and i think your just mindlessly rejurgitating generic complaints rather than looking at this specific game. i'm not a smith fan at all and have slagged him off mercilessly before, but i'll not pretend he didn't have a good game just cos i don't rate him overall. i didn't hear much booing but it seemed aimed at bringing Martins off and not at bringing owen on, who received a rapturous applause when he ran onto the pitch. nothing disgraceful about that. I don't 'mindlessly regurgitate' anyone's comments ; you are entitled to your opinion, and I, along with many other fans on this site who don't rate Martins as a top player, are entitled to ours. In my opinion, he is NOT top-quality - end of... His general control, over a full game , is woeful for a player who cost 10m, and he plays purely by instinct. As for your comments about Smith, he also is NOT a top striker, but he WILL contribute more effort to a game than Martins will. If you thought Martins had a good game, I would hate to see him in a bad one ; I KNOW he can score some eye-catching goals, but he misses far more than he gets - any comparison should be between him and Owen, rather than him and Smith,and in that case, he is definitely second-best; no doubt about it.

This game brought home some harsh truths to many NUFC fans - those who have put Martins & Given on a pedestal(i.e can do no wrong)have had a huge wake-up call today. Martins' control is little short of abysmal - if he had a first touch, he might be worth 10m quid - as it is, I wouldn't pay anything like that sort of money for him ; Allardyce had it spot-on when he said he was a scorer of great goals rather than a goal-scorer... I hope that the booing which occurred when Martins was subbed wasn't aimed at his being replaced by Owen, but I suspect some of it was, and that is a disgrace. What is more, Owen seemed to think so, because he put his hand up to his ear after scoring... Whatever Owen's thoughts about NUFC are, you cannot say he doesn't do the job when fit - he caused problems for their defence as soon as he came on, and to put Martins in the same class as Owen, both as a goalscorer, AND a footballer is just high-lighting ones lack of knowledge about the game.... I have made my points about Given on a different thread, so will not go over it here. Positives - Smith much better as a front-man, and his link-up play with the others was very good, but you can see why he will never score many goals - too unselfish in the area. Enrique, for me, is a better fullback than any at the club already, and that includes Beye ; I don't think he made a bad pass all day, never conceded many fouls, and supported Zog & Milner well - it was a first class full debut.Maybe we should not judge until he has a good winger against him... Faye is a decent contact defender, but will always concede free-kicks ; Butt was in & out - great goal, unquestioned effort, but some sloppy passing. Milner looks in need of a break, and we could do with another good right-sided flank player. Emre made an immediate contribution, both with his passing & the goal, but I wonder how effective he will be away from SJP - if he COULD do that, he will make a big difference to midfield. Capaca was excellent - his reading of the game is better than any other defender at the club, and I still reckon he should have been skipper ; he sets an example to rest of team, and we missed him badly last week. My main gripe is STILL the sloppy surrendering of possession - we put ourselves under far too much pressure by this, and it needs to be corrected ; the best spell of possession in the whole game was when Zog took the ball to their corner near the end. Whilst we have Owen in the side(and Viduka when fit) we will always be able to snatch a goal, but there is as yet no pattern of play emerging ; it WILL happen in time, but whether we have all the players necessary yo do this is a matter for debate. Just glad we managed to grab the 3 points which looked unlikely after they equalised.