merlin

It now looks as if ARSENAL want him - anyone prepared to argue with Mr Wenger..!

Were they not coaches down the road rather than scouts? Whatever they were they've hardly got glowing reputation's in the game nor was their time at the Scum very fruitful. Bad appointments imo. Lets not give them a chance eh, thats the best way. Nope. How many great young talents did they find at Sunderland? and if they were Coaches rather than Scouts how many players were significantly better after signing for them as a result of the coaching ability? I can't recall many in recent time, excluding Phillips perhaps. They were coaches at Sunderland, they are scouts here. Don't see what your point is regarding their scouting ability My point is we're in desperate need of establishing a successful scouting system, as allardyce has already said. So, surely you appoint scouts with experience? scouts with a proven pedigree? Yes, but it isn;t so simple as that. People like me - and maybe you - rated Craig Bellamy when he played for Coventry - and "professionals" like Souness didn't, even after he'd proved himself. So does that make me a good scout and Souness a s*** manager [and scout]....... answers on a postage stamp ....... You get the gist though. The whole scouting system is designed to attract promising youngsters to the club. You can evaluate their potential, but there comes a point where how good they become is up to themselves. That becomes something which is out of the scouts control. I'm not denying a comprehensive scouting network won't pay dividends, of course it will. But I can tell you for absolute certainty that the mackems have had a more comprehensive scouting network than we have had all the way through the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's than us, and where exactly did it get them ? Nowhere. They didn't find many youngsters, Colin Todd is by far the best and the most major. Only Dennis Tueart really comes close. How many others of that standard have they found ? My personal opinion is this is not down to the fact that they had s*** scouts, its down to the fact that they were a poorly run club with poor leadership and no ambition, which runs through a club from the top downwards, which creates a certain type of atmosphere within the club ie a drive to succeed and the setting of certian standards. Things could have been very different for them if they had not sacked Brian Clough, when he was in charge of their youth team. I've deviated from the point here, but sometimes a good player is obvious, you don't have to be a pro to see it, so we should not write off these people on the basis they have connections to the mackems. Its a good job they DID sack Clough, NE5 - the history of both clubs AND the Tyne-Wear Derby would be totally different if he had gone on to manage them ; we would have felt like Man City fans do when looking at Man Utd - Clough would have made them Champs, no doubt about it. There would have been no jokes about 'Scouse Mackems' then..... Had he managed US, on the other hand.....Champs League Winners, NUFC....AND Fergie would have had a hard job trying to goad Mr Clough...!!

Martins is better than Owen and just needs the chances/games to prove it. Owen has been a complete disaster, £17m and 125k a week and he's a complete crock who's past his best. Not only has he missed about as many as chances as Martins has, Martins scores goals that Owen isn't even capable of scoring. Plus he's more creative able to drop deep effectively if needs be and is he's as quick as hell too. Martins is the future for us. He's our best striker simple as that. Martins being our 'best striker' does not make him good enough, and although he is our FITTEST striker, I would put him behind Viduka both on contribution to the side, and goal-scoring when Viduka is fit. If Viduka was the same age as Martins. I would take him every time over Martins... As for comparing Owen unfavourably with Martins - the only way that can be done with any sort of credibility is either on pace or fitness ; Owen at the age Martins is now, was a World-Class player - Martins will NEVER be a World-Class player. A World Class talent does not disappear in as many games as Martins does - Australia had him under lock & key for almost all of their game with Nigeria on Saturday. So you keep saying. I could give you a list of England games as long as your arm where Owen hasn't performed against teams far shitter than the Aussies, competitive and otherwise, and that's no slight on Michael Owen. Henry, Trezeguet, Saha and Anelka all failed to score in two massive games against David Weir ffs. I couldn't really give two stuffs about how Martins plays in an international friendly. But presumably, you COULD give two stuffs if Martins doesn't do the business on a regular basis for NUFC, i.e.score between 15-20 goals per season ? Do you see him doing that even if Allardyce picks him on a regular basis ? Perhaps you do, but I'm afraid I don't - I agree with NE5's assessment of him - scores pot-shots but misses easy chances, and we cannot afford a player who does that - he becomes a luxury, the very same thing many fans accuse Owen of being... Prem defences will have had a good look at Martins over last season, and picked up on his weaknesses, which is why he will find it harder to score now, and even more so in the formation that Allardyce plays - any striker would. Owen has become too much of a risk for us, and at this point in time we have to stick with Martins(and Viduka) because we have no-one else who will pose a threat to opposition defences, but I believe we can get someone who will pose a more consistent threat.

Martins is better than Owen and just needs the chances/games to prove it. Owen has been a complete disaster, £17m and 125k a week and he's a complete crock who's past his best. Not only has he missed about as many as chances as Martins has, Martins scores goals that Owen isn't even capable of scoring. Plus he's more creative able to drop deep effectively if needs be and is he's as quick as hell too. Martins is the future for us. He's our best striker simple as that. Martins being our 'best striker' does not make him good enough, and although he is our FITTEST striker, I would put him behind Viduka both on contribution to the side, and goal-scoring when Viduka is fit. If Viduka was the same age as Martins. I would take him every time over Martins... As for comparing Owen unfavourably with Martins - the only way that can be done with any sort of credibility is either on pace or fitness ; Owen at the age Martins is now, was a World-Class player - Martins will NEVER be a World-Class player. A World Class talent does not disappear in as many games as Martins does - Australia had him under lock & key for almost all of their game with Nigeria on Saturday.

Well, Dave. It is a response to Mick complaining about us buying Owen, I didn't see him predicting what he said was "predictable". Dare I say that its jus a swipe at the board ? Unless Mick says otherwise, and admits it was simply a case of buying a quality player, which the vast majority of people were happy with, in which case I would retract my response. Do you not think my request to name these "trophy" players - assuming they think Owen is one and is not the only one - is relevant to the thread ? I've stated my case. I think the club simply cannot be castigated in any shape or form for buying top class quality players. Who has a problem with this statement ? The problem is that you've stated your case over and over and over and over and over and over again, and frankly, the entire forum is sick of reading the same s*** argument in practically every other thread. The bickering is so f****** tedious that it defies belief, so either keep it in one f****** place or just take it somewhere else altogether. Absolutely, and I seem to remember having seen an Admin giving a last warning yesterday around this time in this very same thread (reactions have (un)fortunately been deleted), so I'm looking forward to a much improved forum shortly where when you open a thread it might actually be about the topic you expected... So. Who do you think we will replace Owen with if he goes ? The way I see it we've already got a better player for Owen's position in Martins. Now we need to find somebody to play alongside him. I had high hopes for a Martins/Owen partnershup but seeing as none of our players bar Emre seem capable to keep the ball down and provide through balls for those two to run onto the new partner will have to be somebody with the ball both in the air and on the ground and somebody we can rely on scoring a good 15 goals a season. These players are obviously hard to come by, but we can´t go too wrong with somebody like Anelka or maybe Crouch. Did you see Martins playing for Nigeria against Australia at Fulham ? Hardly got a kick - even when he did miscue a shot, Schwartzer saved the deflection... Hardly in the match at all - made one good run and cross on the left wing which could have resulted in a goal, but otherwise did nothing. He would not be a replacement for Owen - we need a more physical forward with better control.

Not as good as Kuyt according to me Dutch mate. Think again. He wouldn't be a Feyenoord fan by any chance...!?? Before Bergkamp joined Arsenal, I had a big disagreement with another member of the Magpie Group who thought he was over-rated, whilst I thought he was excellent ; 12 years later, I still remember that conversation,and I reckon my mate finally had to concede when he watched Bergkamp make a total monkey of Dabizas at SJP - and he was past his best by then.. Lets see how Huntelaar does this season....

It will now be best for both parties if Owen leaves. He has been a great player for 9 years, but it does appear that he will always pick up these injuries, esp playing for England. I remain convinced about his ability AND his commitment - I don't believe for one minute that he actually wanted to miss all the games he has for NUFC, but we cannot have a situation like this happening, esp as we are not playing with any pattern or conviction anyway. It is a sad business, but more so for NUFC - we are unlikely to get anything like a decent price for him, probably half what he could potentially be worth - but clubs like Man U could afford to have him out for a few weeks because they have such a load of talent anyway. We do NOT, and we need our best players on the pitch as often as possible ; if a club like Man U DID sign him, the appearances he did make could possibly mean the difference between title and second place.... Lack of appearances for us simply means less chance of us scoring.... If he goes, we will need to replace him, and replace him with the best striker available - I am not convinced that anyone currently playing for NUFC will be able to score regularly, but that is as much a condemnation of the lack of real chances being created in the past few games as criticism of other strikers. I believe the best replacement we have any hope of getting could be Ashton, but it may be summer before that could happen - my choice would be Huntelaar, but I don't think we have a prayer.

Agreed - totally out of touch ; what do people expect, though ? He's French, and everything American is bad to them - he has probably got no proof whatsoever that these guys wish to do these things. They have come into English Football because they like it and may be able to make money out of it whilst enjoying themselves. If they wanted all these ad-breaks etc., they would have stayed in the States & got involved with NFL or Soccer.

Exactly, how long do we have to wait before the manager can get his "average" team of multi-million pound internationals to string more than three passes together? 20 games? 38 games? How dare we demand to be competing with those giants of the premiership Man City, Everton and err....Portsmouth. We are not fit to lace their boots and the sooner we realise Big Sam's long term plan (target man, long throw-in specialists) the better!!!!! Thanks, Novocastrian - you've saved me from a long post in answer to ChezGiven's assertion that we should now use these 'footballing giants' as a yardstick for future progress..!! PLEASE.....!!! Couldnt care what the rest of your post says, dont mis-represent me like that for your own gain. Please. Wtf does 'footballing giants' have to do with anything i've said. Sorry, I dont accept people talking nonsense and attributing it to me. In fact in isolation, that statement above reads like utter s***. Don't get smart with me , ChezGiven - I'll 'mis-represent' you in any way I wish if you persist in doing the same thing.. and as for your arrogance about not caring what the rest of the post says - well, that simply shows you for what you are - someone who believes that they are correct whatever anyone else says. Novocastrian, Ohmelads & myself have a different opinion about the potential abilities of our players to yours - you clearly believe that the clubs you mentioned were superior to ours and we disagree, and to me, just because the likes of Blackburn & Pompey currently have TEAMS in a better position than us does NOT make them better as clubs ; it is CLUBS like Arsenal etc we should be attempting to emulate as they have similar potential to ourselves. People like you always try to twist the words of others in order to suit their OWN theories , and believe me, I think the one who is talking S--t is YOU.. Now try to resume the debate without making yourself look even more self-satisfied than you already have; - this is a subject which requires logical and adult thinking, not childish tit-for-tat stuff - and if you think I'm getting into a long-winded diatribe with you as I have sometimes witnessed between members of this board, forget it. I've made my views clear - we disagree, and that will remain the case. If you wish to pursue the theme personally, do it with someone else who has more tolerance...

Exactly, how long do we have to wait before the manager can get his "average" team of multi-million pound internationals to string more than three passes together? 20 games? 38 games? How dare we demand to be competing with those giants of the premiership Man City, Everton and err....Portsmouth. We are not fit to lace their boots and the sooner we realise Big Sam's long term plan (target man, long throw-in specialists) the better!!!!! Thanks, Novocastrian - you've saved me from a long post in answer to ChezGiven's assertion that we should now use these 'footballing giants' as a yardstick for future progress..!! PLEASE.....!!! Brian Clough once said that football was a simple game made complicated by buffoons, and boy, are we seeing the proof of his words now! Pages & pages of excuses, reasons, theories as to why we are playing crap football - and that, folks is what this is all about. Had we lost 1-4 at home to Pompey in the same manner as we once did at home 2-5 to Spurs in the 70s, no-one would have batted an eyelid because we were THE BETTER SIDE, and it was one of those games which sometimes happen...when we lost at home to Pompey we were poor, just as we were against Reading and Derby AND the Mackems ; we ARE NOT CREATING CHANCES because our football IS NOT CONSTRUCTIVE...and that is why the fans are getting restless, plus the fact that they can't see a pattern and the players are being used as square pegs in round holes... It doesn't matter a toss what you think of our players' abilities - I happen to think that the ones we have would be far more effective if used and motivated correctly..and as for all this stuff about foreign managers, well, if Clough had been around today, he would have been better than ANY of them , and that includes Wenger. Wenger has been a great manager for Arsenal, as has Fergie for Man U, but they have done it at ONE HIGH PROFILE ENGLISH CLUB. Clough took TWO low-profile, under-achieving clubs without a third of our potential, and made them both English Champions, and won the European Cup with the other, so whose is the greater achievement ? I would put my house and everything else on a bet that had Clough been able to take over this same set of players at SJP as we have now, you would have seen a FAR better series of performances - and he didn't give a toss about 'modern scientific methods' etc..... OK, Clough isn't around, but my point is that something is wrong with the coaching of our players - saying that we weren't able to add Rooney, Fabregas etc to the squad is immaterial - do you think we would be any better(or these`players as effective)were they playing for NUFC at this time, because I don't. Its the system that is most at fault.

Agreed, Dave.

The current resource available to the manager of Newcastle United are the current squad of players, nothing more nothing less. To answer your question directly, Portsmouth, Blackburn, Man City. Then you'll need to wait until next season before we can judge him properly then, as if he has no chance of improving this squad in January we're not going to get up to too much this season. Many of the current squad ARE his choices, so he lives or dies by them. As to your second point, the directors/fans have to decide whether a different manager would have got better performances from the players available - at the end of the day, that is the nub of the whole matter. The fact that the players to improve the side may not be available in January is one that an experienced manager should take into account - you are actually saying that by stating that Allardyce cannot therefore be judged until the FOLLOWING January, we should write off a whole season, even if there is no progress on last year. Also, some of the teams you have quoted(Blackburn, Man C & Pompey)do NOT have the potential that NUFC has as a 'Big' club - their fans(with the poss exception of City)do bot have the same expectations which is why I quoted Arsenal etc. I am well aware that Blackburn et al are currently better than us, but they are NOT(and never will be)the benchmark for us to aim for...

All this talk - from last season in particular - about needing new defenders was bollocks. You are right, look back at that blackburn game. Have we ever dominated and forced a game like that ever since ? Maybe one or two of Roeders first games ie Pompey, but thats all. This is how good teams play, they play controlled possession football. When you do that, you aren't giving the ball away and are forcing the pace of the game. It's amazing how people can't see this, when they have been shown it. When you give the ball away and spend the entire game forced backwards, you will NEVER look secure at the back. You need talented players, able to show their talent by passing and moving, with a positive attitude and belief that they will win, playing to win. Playing like this you beat the teams with lesser players and slug it out cat and mouse with the other top teams. I thought Allardyce would have had it in him to adapt his previous methods and play like other top teams have shown the way, but I'm now having big doubts. I don't support getting rid of him just yet, but thats because I'm still hoping that he is capable of it. I don't always agree with you NE5, but on this occasion, we are(almost) as one..! Whilst I disagree that we didn't need new defenders - Bramble for one was clearly not good enough consistently - I agree totally with your analysis of the style of play. People may remember that one of the things I have constantly been complaining about over the season is the number of times we give the ball away, inviting pressure back on our defence as you say, and the lack of movement from players off the ball ; there have been at least 2 occasions where this has been disastrous, once at Man City where Taylor was hurried into an error by being given the ball in an unnecessarily-tight situation, and again at SJP against Pompey where we lost possession in midfield after a bad pass and Cacapa was placed in a one-against-one which resulted in the second goal against.. There was also a similar incident caused by a hurried pass from Faye which led to the Mackems' goal. The point is that the players are not confident with passing/possession football - either that, or they are not practicing this in training because the coaching staff either don't promote it or are told NOT to promote it..... Keeping possession is not easy - it requires effort, skill on the ball, good movement off it(players have to be fit in order to be able to keep it going for 90 mins) - and most of all - PRACTICE. Long-Ball football IS lazy in comparison ; it means abdicating responsibility by just whacking the ball upfield even if there is time to find a colleague in space ; it is also 'percentage' football in that you have in most cases, no better than a 50% chance of your team-mate receiving the pass, and in the case of our current side(Owen & Martins being prime examples)the forwards have LESS than a 50% chance of controlling such a ball. Long-ball football is also bad to watch, which is why so many fans are complaining about what they see... I am not saying that there is not a place in the game for whacking the ball away - clearly, in very tight situations in defence, there is - but to play it all the time will not result in success over a long period. Nobody on this board can tell us of a side who have consistently won trophies playing this way - Wimbledon managed it against Liverpool in the FA Cup, and then vanished into obscurity ; Greece did something similar in the Euro Champs in 2004, then failed to qualify for the WC in 06. Most tellingly, Bolton have won NOWT playing that way and only qualified for the UEFA Cup twice... We are NOT Bolton - we are also not yet Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool - but who should we be attempting to emulate with the resources available to the Manager of Newcastle United, and what is more, which way should we be trying to play.. You need VARIETY of style to compete with whatever strengths the opposition have, and sometimes you have to compromise - but in the main, surrendering possession is NOT going to bring success. As for relying on January to bring relief - forget it. Unless we are very fortunate, the type of players we need are unlikely to be available until the summer. As I have said before, I think it unlikely that there will be any managerial change until then, but a flirtation with the bottom 4 by Christmas could change things - time will tell.The Jury is still out, but the time for the verdict is getting closer....

This has been a big gripe of mine for years - KK wasn't interested when he was here(Alan Thompson said that he felt that KK gave that impression when he arrived, and it was one of the reasons he left.). Not only do we need a TOP local Academy, we also need one(or at least, better connections) in an overseas country.. There are fewer and fewer kids in the UK seriously interested in playing football - schools selling playing fields, lack of competitive attitude taught in schools and playing on Computers are all to blame, but as has been said, Boro have done it and the lack of foresight & planning at NUFC has been appalling, as has been the selection of Coaching staff for youngsters... It all needs sorting like yesterday....

Dalglish fell out(Big Time!) with Fletcher over Gillespie's proposed sale to Boro - from then on his card was marked. IHe was also unfortunate(as were we)that Shearer got injured at the pre-season Everton game ; had he not been, I reckon Tomasson may well have become a success at Newcastle instead of having to play at CF.. Had the side done well that season, they couldn't have sacked Dalglish at the start of the following one.. Don't forget - he took over when we were 7th in the table and we finished 2nd after winning at Arsenal on the final day...

That's my take on it exactly Mick.

The obvious thing to do is bring in another manager who also prefers the 4-3-3 formation. Who? Mourinho? None of the managers we were linked with after Roeder left and who we could possibly attract prefers the 4-3-3. Not Houllier, Eriksson, Van Gaal, Koeman etc. If Ashley gives Sam the cash to spend and SA decides to go with the 4-3-3, there's little room for failure. We'll be left with a squad bereft of players who excel in a 4-4-2 and would struggle to attract a good manager presuming that Allardyce left when we were in the shits. Van Gaal, Houllier and Koeman have all played 4-3-3 at one time or another, it depends on what players they have available. But the idea of not backing Allardyce with transforming his squad to the system he wants to play is just crazy, if that's the way of thinking then we were wrong to give him the job in the first place. Your last sentence is the crux of the whole problem.... We were effectively hamstrung by the Bungling Fat One's final c--k up and we are now between a rock & a hard place as the Yanks say.

There isn't an outstanding candidate - I would have given it to Capaca at the start of the season, but his form doesn't warrant it at this time(confidence low) ; Barton would be a candidate but for his stupid lapses of temperament - maybe Butt is the best of a poor bunch... I didn't want Geremi in the first place.

I've just seen it, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a ban for that. Agreed Mick - absolutely X-Rated challenge ; we need players being brought before the FA like a hole in the head ; what do some of these guys do for brains..??

Don't even joke about it - Allardyce or Round might just be watching this site and draw inspiration from your suggestion....!!

If Allardyce doesn't have confidence that Enrique can handle the Derby, he shouldn't have paid 6m for him. You can't draw any other conclusion, as the guy has performed reasonably well in all the games he has started.He is a decent passer of the ball, and his temperament looks good so I don't see why he wasn't picked...Beye has looked suspect on some occasions, esp at Man City & Reading. These selection decisions are baffling..Steve Round's influence, anyone..!!

All who are complaining about Harper should think about things for a minute - if all you had to worry about was the keeper, we would have a fantastic side ; we've got FAR MORE problems in the side than Harper. I didn't think he did much wrong at all apart from the pass which Jones nearly intercepted - we have dire problems all over the field and those criticising him for the goal(can't see why) should be asking where Heginbotham's marker was at the corner - the guy could have written his name on the ball before heading it in... Apart from Faye before he went off, our defence was disorganised.

The best thing that can be said about this match is that we got a point, and no-one could have complained if we had lost in the end. They clearly wanted it more than we did and at least had a real go at getting the points; most neutral observers would have expected that they would... Derby games are renowned for form/relative player merits going out of the window, but I think back to Liverpool's game at the SOS, and despite all the spirited huffing & puffing from the Mackems, they imposed their will on the game, both physically and by superior skill. At no time did we come even close to doing that, and one has to either believe that;- 1. We are no better than them, player for player, OR 2.They were better organised and motivated than we were.. Which one do you think is the right answer..! How many times did we force their keeper into a decent save(NOT scrambling around at corners etc?) How many times did we penetrate their back 4 by good interpassing moves rather than hit & hope long balls with Owen or someone else using individual skill to try to get a shooting chance ? I bet if you work out the number of saves opposition keepers have had to make during the past 4 away games, our clear-chance ratio is one of the lowest in the Prem. There are clearly no original thinkers in the coaching staff at SJP - if Milner's lucky strike(clearly an attempt at a cross)had not gone in, there would have been less attempts to gloss over this result which, like Reading & Derby, should have been a decent shout of getting 3 points. There will have to be a big improvement over the next few weeks.....

Think you're underestimating this game a bit. This is immediately followed by the visits of Liverpool and Arsenal with a trip to in-form Blackburn in the middle. Thee games where we will go in as underdogs. If we don't take three points from this game there's a strong chance we will look back on it as a massive opportunity missed. Mess up this, and Liverpool and Arsenal could really put a dent in our season. It's a massive game for us. Totally agree - lose this, and we are under huge pressure over the next few weeks ; it could make or break the season and its almost(but not quite)in the same league as the SJP Derby which signalled the end for Gullit - I don't think Allardyce will go if we lose, not a chance, but it might be a different matter if we also lose the next 3 games and the team's confidence goes......

We'll have to agree to disagree ; judging NUFC as a bigger club than Everton etc is not the yardstick I want to be used - we need to be judged against the likes of Man U Arsenal & Liverpool if we REALLY want to be considered a success. Also, unlike you, I would choose O'Neill if given the choice of him and Allardyce - also, KK at this point in time. Using KK's age as a get out for him as a modern manager is not on - both Allardyce & O'Neill are also in their 50s...O'Neill has successfully managed at least 2 clubs apart from his first appt. - Leicester & Celtic(who in fan terms, which is how so many NUFC fans judge a 'big' club, are bigger than us !) ; he won things at both clubs and although you keep mentioning Scotland, he had to compete against some decent European sides to get Celtic to the UEFA Final. He has had a decent if unspectacular start at Villa, but I have been more impressed with their performances than ours this year - compare the relative cost of constructing the 2 sides and you will see that Allardyce had some decent material to work with even though this is his first season. O'Neill has been luckier with his youngsters(they are clearly better than anything we have in reserve or academy), but he HAS given them a chance and their play is more attractive than ours. OK, they lost to Man U, and Liverpool at home but these are results that are likely to happen to us ; lets see what happens by the end of the season....