merlin

Exactly, BG - a win in the next game is vital or problems will really start...

As I've said before, Carroll will go if he maintains his improvement - unless NUFC are taken over by a meg-rich owner, Carroll will NOT win honours at SJP OR receive the kind of wages he will command at the Top clubs so the player himself will want to go. However, I will be surprised if this happens before the summer although you can never rule anything on or out with Ashley in charge. It will be a major disappointment if he is sold for less than 30m frankly - there are very few players like him, esp with all their careers in front of them.

If he does it in this transfer window, relegation will be almost a certainty - nobody else will get goals and I cannot see Ashley allowing much of the fee to be spent.

How many errors has Krul got away with this season ? And how many times has Forster saved his respective teams during the past year or so ? I don't think Norwich fans - as one example - would agree with your view...incidentally, how many times have YOU seen Forster play ? That's why we need to assess him in the PL . I am unconvinced by Krul this season and hope Harper is soon back in goal.

Midds summary of the game was a good one, and I can add little to that. Main point is that the error by Krul is, for me, a culmination of some uncertain performances by him - I am not convinced that he is the worthy successor to Given/Harper that many think. I believe that Forster should be given a run of games once he returns from Celtic and I certainly wouldn't sell him before Krul without having a good look at him in the PL first. Tiote's was a bad mistake, but the guy has been very consistent before this, so we cannot blame him too much ; as Midds says, the team are not good enough to recover from a 2-0 deficit against a team like City. let alone Manu U etc. Although it was a much improved effort by Routledge I am still not convinced that he will do it regularly enough to warrant his place ; the lad has talent, but there is some sort of mental block which prevents him producing it at the top level consistently. There are too many players who have not(and will not)bridged the gap between CCC and PL. so where we go from here is anyone's guess. Carroll has been a huge bonus this season and his development will almost certainly result in his leaving the club unless some team-building - CREDIBLE team-building - takes place. If Carroll did leave, relegation would be a certainty unless all his fee were spent on rebuilding the side, so we must hope it doesn't happen this transfer window. As for protesting against Ashley, there seems little that can be done unless some multi-billionaire challenges him for the club. It is quite obvious that many fans will never boycott, so the club is probably in for a fairly long period of struggle. A tough game at Spurs offers little chance of an early boost and W Ham showed signs of recovery against Fulham so a win against them will be crucial. Nobody should get complacent - there are many twists and turns left in this season.......

Wright-Philips is a better winger than Routledge by some distance - would be a good loan signing but his wages(and also ,now, his age) rule him out as a permanent signing...the same facts also apply to Keane but he too would be a plus for the squad as a loan signing. Both would give far more attacking options than the side currently possesses. Barton is a good passer of the ball but lacks the pace to play permanently on the wing. As for Woodgate, his time has long gone - great defender when fit but too many issues.

A welcome result against a Liverpool side who are a pale imitation of past years - worse than the side we beat 3-0 and 2-0 in 93/94 in first PL season. This match was the one, for me, in which Andy Carroll established himself as a genuine England player and one who should go on to become a real asset for whoever he plays for. Apart from the goal(which was much more difficult than it first appeared - he was around 25 yards out and the keeper was not unsighted), he gave them all sorts of problems and was involved in all 3 goals we scored. I expect him to go on to become the Young Player of the Season by the time these awards are dished out. Nasri will probably win the top award, but at this point in the club's development, we are better with Carroll than Nasri ; Arsenal have plenty of good players, NUFC do not and Carroll's physical threat is vital to the club. Which brings me to the worrying sight of Ashley gleefully rubbing his hands together after Carroll's goal ; I hope he doesn't think that Carroll's transfer value has risen by another 5m because nobody would put it past Ashley to get a quick 25m for Carroll if he could...esp if Spurs do a deal involving Pavyluchenko...... Apart from that, and a decent performance by Barton, the game changing moment was the subbing of Ameobi by Ranger - this boy could make a huge difference to the mobility of the forward line and we started to cause Liverpool problems when he began to chase and harry their defenders - something Shola NEVER does. If Pardew does nothing else, he will earn his corn if he can get some consistency out of Ranger and develop him as a player. A vital and necessary 3 points - we will now see how Pardew will influence the side as he has several days to work with the players - I also look forward to the Transfer window with great interest....!

Eventually - when it suits NUFC - Barton needs to be on his way. He will always be a liability as he demonstrated against Blackburn, even though he has had innumerable chances to sort himself out since he came to the club and arguably, his enforced absence was one of the factors in Hughton being sacked after the results at Bolton and WBA. A decent player, yes, but not irreplaceable given time.... As I said, when it suits NUFC, he should go, but not before. If we ever needed a dressing room without controversy, its now - and a full strength side to boot.

KK has summed the whole situation up almost to perfection. Sadly, his views confirm what many think, which is that the club will go nowhere under the people currently running it and that is the worst part of the situation. As kevin says, the best day will come when someone finally buys the club from Ashley, but its hard to see that happening any time soon and before anyone even THINKS about posting that they want Shepherd back, do us all a favour, and DON'T. The club needs genuinely TALENTED and ambitious people with decent wealth in order to be successful and it is hard to see where those people are coming from in this day and age. KK MAY be right about Pardew, but the latter's record does not really bear that out - time will tell but if he gets on the wrong side of the deadly duo, he will have as much chance of success as I have of bedding Madonna...come to think about it, Pardew may well have a better chance of doing THAT although at only 3 years younger, he may be too old for her...!

Yes, you are quite correct BG - see my post later in the thread. As it happens, I was involved with the Magpie Group so had even more reason to get the old board out. On the day the fans finally turned on Mckeag and Co during the match with Coventry late in 1988, I was on my way back from Edinburgh after racing up there that morning to beat McKeag's rep to a shareholder so John Hall could get those shares ; there were about 6 of us doing similar things... I missed the game(we lost 0-3) but we got the shares...and that was another step to getting McKeag out so it was well worth it in my opinion. You cannot achieve anything without some sacrifice - no pain, no gain ! As for those who try to look down on those of us who are prepared to do without going to SJP for the long term good...well, you did right to shake your head and frankly, blind unquestioning loyalty of the 'King's new clothes' variety is one of the reasons I am cutting back on postings. More to do than listen to the rattle of empty cans...too old for that now !

One of the best post I've read on the forum Thanks for that - a pity I had to make the post anyway..!

I have not been posting on the site for some time for several reasons and I won't be doing so on a regular basis again, but for what its worth, here is my 5p worth. Hughton - was unlucky with injuries to HBA and suspensions for Barton and Coloccini because of their own stupid behaviour. Had these events not occurred, it would have been more difficult for Ashley to fire him. Having said that, the results against teams like Blackpool, Stoke and Wigan at SJP were very disappointing and the debacle at Bolton was probably what decided his fate...the WBA game also underlined the problems because they outplayed us. OK, we had a weakened side through susps and injuries, but it has to be remembered that we failed to beat them in 3 attempts last season and overall, they have looked a more consistent side than NUFC this season. Don't forget, we were supposed to be the better side AND club... It is hard to pinpoint the main flaws that Ashley and Co were seeing in Hughton unless they felt he was too close to the players - and that may well have been true, but to come to the crux of the matter, it is inexplicable why they chose to fire him for someone like Pardew, and that is another reason why I have waited to respond because I wanted to see who they were bringing in instead. Had it been Jol or MON, you could have seen some logic in the decision ; the Transfer window was coming up, results starting to tail off, unconvincing home record etc., fear of relegation and the 2 managers mentioned would have probably been acceptable to most fans in view of the reasons Ashley gave for firing Hughton.....to appoint a manager like Pardew who has a poor record when compared to those 2, and looks no better(maybe worse) than Hughton, defies belief - even at NUFC. It may be that Pardew wipes egg on to everyone's face by doing well - but I wouldn't put a brass farthing on it. The worrying thing is that he has been given a 5 year deal which indicates Ashley is in for the long haul so nothing is going to change anytime soon. I will be surprised if Pardew is still at SJP in 3 years time frankly, so there is likely to be even more upheaval in the future. Despite over-emotional reactions by some fans, I can see SOME logic in Ashley's aims ; Not giving managers open-ended deals, not wanting to pay massive(and undeserved) compensation if they are fired for failure, not wanting to give money-grabbing has-beens a final big pay day at NUFC's expense and bringing through young players ...these are all decent policies. The problem, as ever with this guy, is that he has a blinkered view of business because he got lucky by launching his at a time when credit was easy and people were happy to spend. His retail policy does NOT stand up in NUFC's current situation - Newcastle, above everything else, MUST stay in the PL ; refusing to sign the players that will keep the club up for a couple of seasons until youngsters are ready is just plain stupidity. Ashley, as he has demonstrated on several occasions, esp at NUFC, is above all a chancer...he is chancing his luck again by his actions now. Young players are getting harder and harder to obtain because a) there are fewer of them and b) because of that, they are chased by all the top clubs and have their choice of where to go. After all the hullabaloo at NUFC, it is hard to see any decent kid outside of Tyneside wanting to go there, esp if their parents advise them against so that aspect of Ashley's policy will be ever harder to realise. Getting good players to join the club will also be hard, esp if relegation occurs again this season. I am a long way from England now, so my actions are decided for me -those living locally face a choice - you can either hide behind the 'loyalty' thing, swallow the bitter pills Ashley keeps giving out and keep going to SJP - that way, he laughs all the way to the bank(and probably laughs at the fans in the same way that Shepherd and DH did back in the 90s). OR...you can do the only thing that will hurt him, and that is not to buy STs, Club merchandise etc. You CAN always go to an individual game because there will be NO shortage of seats after all this. This is the action I and many others took back in the 80s when we wanted McKeag & Co out and it eventually worked. Ashley has much more dosh than they did, but he doesn't like losing it and if the club starts faltering, lose it he will. Until Bobby Robson went, there was a 20,000 waiting list for STs - now there is NOBODY on that waiting list so the club has lost at least 20,000 fans in 10 years. No business can afford to keep doing that and NUFC are no different. These choices are down to individuals - I am a bit of a demanding character, and I don't like being conned, so its easy for me to cut off anything which I see as a scam - NUFC is almost that, so its your decision and your money. I gave up much of my personal time in the 80's/90s to help bring change to NUFC so nobody can accuse me of lack of loyalty - but I refuse to be conned by anyone, least of all a chancer like Ashley. So there it is - maybe Pardew is the next Bill Shankly ....unfortunately, looking at the comments from supporters of his former clubs, it is more likely that he will be the next Sven...esp in the female department. I wish you guys luck - there have been unpopular appointments at SJP before bit this ranks with the worst of them, as does the Board and owner so you have to hope that it will work out against the odds. Somehow, I don't think I'll be flying over from Oz to see a Cup Final any time soon.....I now know how all the old guys I met back in 69 who had stopped going after the late 50s....

He isn't an unknown quantity With this injury he is. It would be a ludicrous risk to sign him right now, as Yorkie said. Agree - this kind of injury affects players differently. Much of the subsequent problem can be in their head. Some get over it but look at Shearer ; mentally very strong and played for a futher 9 years but was never as dangerous as before because he lost some speed. With Shearer we knew what we had whereas with HBA we really don't ; is it the player who scored a cracking goal at Everton or is it the one who was ineffective against Stoke ? Then there are the off-field issues he had with previous clubs..... NUFC hasn't the money to risk so unless the trial can be extended, I wouldn't take the risk. Ineffective against Stoke? care to elaborate? Would you care to outline any incidents in which he created problems for them..?? What's the point you're even making? Yes it was the same player who scored against Everton. No matter how good a player you are you won't play well every game. It was his second start in English football for god's sake. If we do buy him he will have more good games than bad. Every player is a risk to an extent. If you can find a player for less than £6m who is guaranteed to be good for us on a consistent basis then give Chris a call. You have no proof that he would be as good as you say - you are basing your evidence on a good goal at Everton ' if ypu look at my post I clearly say that we don't know if we are getting a player who represents the goal at Everton or the nondescript performance v Stoke...in other words, we have no proof if he is worth a large fee ; 2 previous managers of major French clubs clearly didn't believe he was necessary to their sides. You state he will have more good games than bad yet you haven't an OUNCE of evidence to back up that statement. Every player is NOT as big a risk as one we know little about and has a somewhat chequered history with his previous clubs - we need the trial extending because as you may remember, NUFC has wasted millions on players who turned out to be less than great...Martins and Luque for 2, only we were lucky enough to get most of the money back from Martins...look where HE is now.... If you can't see the point I am making you are deliberately avoiding it. Name me a player who would cost under £6m who wouldn't be a risk. And once you've named him (which you won't be able to do because as I say, no player is risk-free) I'll say this: "You have no proof that he would be as good as you say" I can't guarantee Ben Arfa will have more good games than bad but I do have evidence...title wins in France, caps for national team, highly rated by Wenger and other players and managers. You're just being negative for the sake of it, I wonder why. 'Highly rated by Wenger'..... yes, so highly rated that he didn't even bother to try to get the guy on the same sort of try before you buy agreement that NUFC did...don't you think you've shot yourself well and truly in the foot there ? Wenger is no fool - if he rated HBA as much as you say, NUFC would have had NO chance of getting the player. And as for your claim about 6m players, if HBA is a s good as you say, there is no way he would have been sold by OM for less than 10m. And as for the International claim you made, he was never even selected in the French WC side...and anyone knows that they were a disaster..! There will be LOTS of players under 6m who are not a risk...Tiote cost 3.5 and so far, he has been a real asset in his DM position..I am not paid to be the club's scout but if I were I WOULD take up your challenge. You must be able to spend a great deal of time watching potential signings if you feel confident enough to make those sorts of claims...in fact, judging by NUFC's past record in wasting money, there may even be a vacancy for you !

He isn't an unknown quantity With this injury he is. It would be a ludicrous risk to sign him right now, as Yorkie said. Agree - this kind of injury affects players differently. Much of the subsequent problem can be in their head. Some get over it but look at Shearer ; mentally very strong and played for a futher 9 years but was never as dangerous as before because he lost some speed. With Shearer we knew what we had whereas with HBA we really don't ; is it the player who scored a cracking goal at Everton or is it the one who was ineffective against Stoke ? Then there are the off-field issues he had with previous clubs..... NUFC hasn't the money to risk so unless the trial can be extended, I wouldn't take the risk. Ineffective against Stoke? care to elaborate? Would you care to outline any incidents in which he created problems for them..?? If you didn't see them then what's the point? He was our best player in the first half, his dribbling alone opened up plenty of space, but then you need movement from other players to benefit from it. Tbh even if he had a s*** game it's beside the point. If you can't see a good player there then you aren't much different to the West Ham fans who whinged about Mascherano and Tevez. That's YOUR interpretation of it - mine is that they quickly sussed him and because the other players are not good enough individually to cause teams problems, Stoke were able to put more players on him and snuff him out..just as Wigan did with Jonas and Enrique. What gives YOU the God-given right to decide whether I am like 'those West Ham fans(were you there by the way ?)etc etc.' You might think you know everything about the game but I do not share your opinion - or, incidentally, put much store by it. have you answered my point about his previous managers in France not wishing to keep him ? I wasn't aware that the French League is running over with top class players either... we do not need ANY player who is going to be temperamental and that is obviously the stance they took. There is more to a footballer than being able to do a few pretty dribbles or look good for the odd game...but then, as a NUFC fan for some years, you should be used to that by now !

He isn't an unknown quantity With this injury he is. It would be a ludicrous risk to sign him right now, as Yorkie said. Agree - this kind of injury affects players differently. Much of the subsequent problem can be in their head. Some get over it but look at Shearer ; mentally very strong and played for a futher 9 years but was never as dangerous as before because he lost some speed. With Shearer we knew what we had whereas with HBA we really don't ; is it the player who scored a cracking goal at Everton or is it the one who was ineffective against Stoke ? Then there are the off-field issues he had with previous clubs..... NUFC hasn't the money to risk so unless the trial can be extended, I wouldn't take the risk. Ineffective against Stoke? care to elaborate? Would you care to outline any incidents in which he created problems for them..?? What's the point you're even making? Yes it was the same player who scored against Everton. No matter how good a player you are you won't play well every game. It was his second start in English football for god's sake. If we do buy him he will have more good games than bad. Every player is a risk to an extent. If you can find a player for less than £6m who is guaranteed to be good for us on a consistent basis then give Chris a call. You have no proof that he would be as good as you say - you are basing your evidence on a good goal at Everton ' if ypu look at my post I clearly say that we don't know if we are getting a player who represents the goal at Everton or the nondescript performance v Stoke...in other words, we have no proof if he is worth a large fee ; 2 previous managers of major French clubs clearly didn't believe he was necessary to their sides. You state he will have more good games than bad yet you haven't an OUNCE of evidence to back up that statement. Every player is NOT as big a risk as one we know little about and has a somewhat chequered history with his previous clubs - we need the trial extending because as you may remember, NUFC has wasted millions on players who turned out to be less than great...Martins and Luque for 2, only we were lucky enough to get most of the money back from Martins...look where HE is now.... If you can't see the point I am making you are deliberately avoiding it.

Means nothing - just done to enable Man U to get a large fee for him. Will be surprised if he 's still there next August.

He isn't an unknown quantity With this injury he is. It would be a ludicrous risk to sign him right now, as Yorkie said. Agree - this kind of injury affects players differently. Much of the subsequent problem can be in their head. Some get over it but look at Shearer ; mentally very strong and played for a futher 9 years but was never as dangerous as before because he lost some speed. With Shearer we knew what we had whereas with HBA we really don't ; is it the player who scored a cracking goal at Everton or is it the one who was ineffective against Stoke ? Then there are the off-field issues he had with previous clubs..... NUFC hasn't the money to risk so unless the trial can be extended, I wouldn't take the risk. Ineffective against Stoke? care to elaborate? Would you care to outline any incidents in which he created problems for them..??

He isn't an unknown quantity With this injury he is. It would be a ludicrous risk to sign him right now, as Yorkie said. Agree - this kind of injury affects players differently. Much of the subsequent problem can be in their head. Some get over it but look at Shearer ; mentally very strong and played for a futher 9 years but was never as dangerous as before because he lost some speed. With Shearer we knew what we had whereas with HBA we really don't ; is it the player who scored a cracking goal at Everton or is it the one who was ineffective against Stoke ? Then there are the off-field issues he had with previous clubs..... NUFC hasn't the money to risk so unless the trial can be extended, I wouldn't take the risk.

I don't know why people are trying to run them down after last night's performance - we got demolished by Inter at SJP and even though we drew 2-2 we still went out. They are a much better side than we are and likely to remain that way for years. We should be more worried about how many other fans are laughing at US and they have good reason at the moment.

Exactly - footballers will feel the pain if fans stop going to games because they are too busy paying fuel bills etc. It WILL happen, don't think it couldn't....

I said earlier they wouldn't rush it - they will await events over the next 10 days...

Much of what you say is common sense - as I said in an earlier post, there is no point in firing the manager unless a better one is available to the club and clearly, it is unlikely to happen if Ashley is unwilling to provide him with a decent budget. Nevertheless, I am unconvinced that Hughton IS going to be able to keep the club up - whether someone else could do it is a moot point because we are unlikely to find out unless we lose a few more games on the trot. However, if we are waiting for Ashley to sell the club before we make progress, we will wait an awful long time...nobody with big bucks has shown the slightest interest in buying it and unless we stay up this season, nobody will in the near future. How long many fans are prepared to wait while the club struggles on for several seasons I do not know - after all, there are going to be plenty of people who will be trying to save money in the current financial climate and if crowds drop the club becomes even less attractive. Relegation this season would kill interest for many supporters and would act as a further deterrent to would be buyers, so it is critical that we stay up.

Keegan only had 250,000 to spend(and that was SJH's personal money used to buy Kilcline) when he arrived at SJP, and 3 months to stop the club plunging into the 3rd Div...how does your reasoning stand up ? KK had to keep the club in the 2nd Div AND stop it going bust before he could start rebuilding the side...and in addition, how much do you think he spent getting the club promoted ? Before he signed Andy Cole and Scott Sellars in late Feb 1993, he had only bought Beresford and Venison for around 500,000. KK only started spending big in 94/95 and that was when the club was making huge progress on and off the field. We here are talking about keeping the club in the PL., not building a title-chasing side and a club of this size should be quite able to do that...as should a decent manager given a modicum of support by the board. To be fair, I have looked back at KK's promotion signings and he actually spent 1.8m until signing Cole and Sellars late in the season...Beresford was actually 650,000, Venison and Bracewell 250,000 ; Lee came in October for 700,000. When you consider how much Coloccini and Enrique cost alone in the current side, and that KKs promotion team only needed a couple of players added to finish 3rd in the PL, you can see that even after 18 years he still got value for money. I disagree that you cannot compare the 2 eras - yes, the club displayed more ambition under SJH than Ashley, but when you compare the cost of the current side you can hardly say they are great value...Williamson and Tiote maybe, but Barton...?? How about Jonas compared to Rob Lee..or Andy Cole with ANY of the current strike force ?

Keegan only had 250,000 to spend(and that was SJH's personal money used to buy Kilcline) when he arrived at SJP, and 3 months to stop the club plunging into the 3rd Div...how does your reasoning stand up ? KK had to keep the club in the 2nd Div AND stop it going bust before he could start rebuilding the side...and in addition, how much do you think he spent getting the club promoted ? Before he signed Andy Cole and Scott Sellars in late Feb 1993, he had only bought Beresford and Venison for around 500,000. KK only started spending big in 94/95 and that was when the club was making huge progress on and off the field. We here are talking about keeping the club in the PL., not building a title-chasing side and a club of this size should be quite able to do that...as should a decent manager given a modicum of support by the board.

It is NOT the last thing anyone should do to sack the manager...where do you think NUFC would have finished up in 1992 if they had continued with Ardiles instead of bringing KK in ? They would have ended up in Div 3. that's where..we CANNOT afford relegation again. There is no purpose in firing the manager if you can't get someone better - but if you can, then you should - not only that, but as a director/owner, it is your DUTY to do just that. You are living in fantasy land - if Hughton cannot be replaced by a better manager, then he should stay ; if he gets the club relegated, then we might all as well go home because the message is that nobody better will take on the job. That also applies if Ashley intends to stay as owner and not invest, even if a new guy was appointed. Yes, Hughton has had his hands tied on transfers but those were the terms on which he accepted the job ; failure to win crucial home games against potential fellow strugglers will get him the sack...end of story.